Episode notes:
Visit Chris' website. Follow him on Twitter @thatchrisgore
Episode Transcript:
Paul: Welcome to episode 80 with my guest Chris Gore. I’m Paul Gilmartin. This is The Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads; from medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It’s not a doctor’s office. It’s more like a waiting that hopefully doesn’t suck. Somebody actually sent me an email that was like, “Dude, be more cheerful in the beginning. You sound like it’s a funeral.” (laughs) And the really sad thing is is sometimes that’s like me being at the limit of my cheeriest. So, sorry. I-I don’t wanna come across phony.
What do I wanna share with you guys? The website for the show is mentalpod.com. That’s also the Twitter name you can follow me at. Go to the website, there’s the survey, there’s a forum, there’s a newsletter you can sign up for, there’s blogs by me and other people and a whole bunch of good stuff there.
A couple of things I want to promote. This is the, I guess it’s tomorrow, the 29th, will be the Chicago walk. The Out of the Darkness Walk to raise money for suicide prevention. So it’s not too late if you’re in the Chicagoland area. The website for that is chicagowalk.org. So go to the website and be a part of that if you if you can. And if you’re not, go fuck yourself. Been a while since I said that. Gotta bring it out! You can’t let the “go fuck yourself” get rusty cuz then people get half-fucked when that’s rusty and that’s no good. We need that nice and shiny and lotioned and lubricated. I took that a little further than I cared to.
I wanted to share something with you—oh, the other thing I wanted to ask you guys is – I want to do a montage about people talking about the benefits of asking out—asking for help, even when it’s scary. So if you could make one of yourself, say what your name is, your age, you know, what your fears were about asking for help, and how it actually wound up turning out, maybe a limit of like 30 seconds, you can upload it at YouTube privately and then message me. My name is mentalpod on YouTube. And that way I can gather a bunch. And I would love to put a montage together o-of people doing it. I think it can be really powerful.
The other thing I wanted to share with you guys is a little tip that I learned—I get a lot of surveys filled out by people, or I talk to people who go to therapy and they’re afraid to say certain things to their therapists, and something that I do when I have something to say that’s kind of difficult that I’m afraid it might hurt my therapist’s feelings—you can also use this with people other than therapists—is I’ll say, “My brain is telling me such-and-such.” And that way it kind of acknowledges that you know what you’re about to say is maybe a little hurtful. But you’re still able to get that truth out, like for instance when I first started seeing the therapist I’m seeing now, she complimented me on something and instead of saying, “I think you’re a liar,” I said, “My brain is telling me that you’re just saying that because you’re getting paid.” And of course she reminded me that she’s not getting paid, she was actually a therapist in training who was getting her license. But anyway that hopefully will make it easier for some of you when you go into therapy because, man, that bums me out when I see people are going into therapy and they’re lying to their therapists. They’re lying to their therapists. And I feel like if you can’t be completely with your therapist, who can you be honest with? I don’t know. Is that too sad for you? Is that too sad for the guy who said I’m sad?
I found a word today to accurately describe how I feel when I’m depressed – depleted. That just seemed—that word popped into my head today. I have run out of one of my meds because of a little SNAFU with the pharmacy, the online pharmacy I get them from so I haven’t had some of these meds in the dosage I need for about a week now and I’ve started noticing that feeling coming back where I feel glued to a chair, where I’m like, “Oh, I really need to do such-and-such,” but I just feel depleted. I feel like I’m running at like 60%. And I’m sure some of you guys can relate to that feeling.
All right. I am going to read the email that I got from a guy who calls himself JM. “Paul, I’m 40, male and straight. I’ve been married since I was 22 and I have three kids. I wanted to tell you that I made a big decision today and part of the reason it happened is because of the show. I’ve had depression since I was a teenager. I don’t have to get into the entire family background but essentially I had two depressed parents who divorced and were lost in their own funk. No one set the rules or boundaries or checked grades from school. I raised myself. My girlfriend got pregnant when I was 21 and by the time I was 24 I was already married with two boys and I had a mortgage. I love my kids. I think it needs to be expressed more often how children can focus and calm you. But parenthood comes at a price. The price a lot of childless couples don’t want to pay. My needs were put off, my dreams, my fun and my money. But when you’re a caring parent, you just don’t give a shit. You’d give anything for your little ones. Now I’m older. The kids are older and moving on and it’s time to deal with the problems that grew cobwebs and are dusty on a shelf.
“My depression never left me. It was always there when the bills were late. It called me a loser and a worthless father. Every time we couldn’t afford to go on vacation. Every time I couldn’t come through at Christmas. My kids like going to their friends’ homes because our home is boring. It was there when I could never find a job that I enjoyed. The jobs themselves started to help the depression along. Soon my weekends were ruined because I was thinking about how shitty Monday was going to be. I stopped feeling joy. My wife is wonderful and I’m thankful but she is made of stronger stuff. She’s not equipped or prepared to handle the depression beast. And he is a beast as you know. He only lets me have a few days off on my own. I have a few days here and there when I enjoy movies or reading or creating my own little podcast. It’s nice to have a recording of me when I’m in a good mood. I considered getting on anti-depressants but I had no insurance and I thought I could hold out until money started coming in. I also didn’t want to be ‘on drugs’ for my entire life. But Paul, it’s become very bad. The last few years the beast is louder and more persistent. I’m happy to say I have a little voice of reason that’s popped in there recently, partly because of your show, maybe only because of your show.” I’m very uncomfortable with being given that credit.
“A little voice repeats the mantra, ‘These are all just thoughts and your thoughts aren’t you.’ I desperately need that. I’ve been unemployed for almost a year and the prospects aren’t good. I average out the amount of resumes per day and it’s one rejection per day since late last year. Day after day of no phone calls. The stress is all consuming. Unemployment benefits are running out. My house, my wife, my kids, the beast is having a great time. He wants me to kill myself. He’s been pushing hard. He’s trying to convince me that it’ll all be over if I have the guts to do it. No more job-hunts, sadness, lack of joy, stress, anxiety. I forget about it for a week or so and it comes back. How could I do that? How could I? This morning was pretty bad. The beast was trying to get me to look forward to the day I killed myself instead of the day when I get a job. What the fuck is that? Why is this asshole in my head all the time? But out of nowhere the little voice returned. He showed me an image of me as a 17-year-old, staring at the ceiling, consumed with questions and depression. Then it hit me. For the first time it clicked – I have a fucking disease. It’s been a disease the entire time. My ability to perceive reality is broken or undeveloped or something. I need the pills. Hopefully they will work. I actually have some strange faith that they will work. I needed to write and to let you know.”
Well thank you, thank you JM for that honesty. I appreciate that. And I relate so, so much to that. And I also want to voice that I get uncomfortable in emails. I enjoy personally reading when people compliment me and say that the show has helped them, but when I read it on the air, I get this wave of anxiety that comes through me like, “Oh my God. You are looking like such a self-satisfied pompous ass. Everybody is going to stop listening to the podcast now, you’ve blown it.” Boy, the beast loves to tell me that.
I’m gonna finish the intro up with a happy moment. This is from Jenny Chandra, she’s straight, she’s in her 20’s and one of her happy moments is—she writes, “When I was first dating my husband, we went to the par, and fed the birds with a box of oatmeal cookies he had bought. The birds flocked like crazy and I got some beautiful pictures of them even though I was somewhat distracted by the fear of being pooped on. It was a simple and sweet situation. And I appreciated that there are so few people in my life who would be as honestly enthusiastic about that activity as he and I were.” That’s a beautiful one. And another one she shares is, “Every time I go home and visit my parents, I just love sitting on the couch and watching a movie with them. My childhood wasn’t perfect emotionally but my parents and I are very close and I love every moment I can be with them. Except when they embarrass me in public.”
[SHOW INTRO]
Paul: I’m here with Chris Gore who some of you would know from—he created a underground magazine about indie film in 1985 called Film Threat. There’s still a website for it. You sold it to Larry Flynt some years ago. Huge following on that. People may know you from Attack of the Show on the G4 network and then they also know you from your podcast Pod Crash where your podcast is basically you going on other people’s podcasts and crashing them.
Chris: I’m always the guest on every episode. It’s a way for people to discover other podcasts because I’m just really excited about the medium and there’s so many different types of podcasts out there from comedy, to sex, to nerdy stuff, which I happen to like. A lot of the geeky stuff: comic books, movies, film, TV.
Paul: If you could see the space that we’re recording in right now, it’s Chris’s craft room at the back of his house and it is a nerd wet dream. It is—I don’t even know how to describe it. There’s all kinds of electronics, there’s a video game, he—there’s a gigantic skull, there’s a bust of some old dude from the 1700’s.
Chris: That’s—well you would recognize that – it’s William Shakespeare. That’s a prop replica from the original Batman TV series from the 1960’s.
Paul: Oh my God.
Chris: The head even tilts back.
Paul: Is that like to open the thing?
Chris: To open the door to the bat poles where they would—Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson would turn into Batman and Robin.
Paul: I didn’t know that was Shakespeare’s head that they had.
Chris: Yeah, that’s a faux bust.
Paul: I’m sorry, I started—I interrupted you but I so wanted to paint the picture for the listener to be able to …
Chris: I like to think it’s a manly crafting environment. It’s kind of like—my friends have described me as like a Martha Stewart for nerds.
Paul: That’s awesome. If you saw this you would completely agree. And I get that. There is something so narcotic-like about having a space, for me it’s my garage and woodworking and there’s something so narcotic about just having this place where you can go escape and let that part of your brain that you don’t know where it’s coming from, you just let it go and you follow it.
Chris: Absolutely. And I think there’s something to having all this stuff. I mean I recently went through a huge purge of all kinds of why am I collecting all these hunks of plastic? They’re gonna all be in a landfill and they’re gonna be worthless and I used to justify it by saying that I could go to a therapist and found out why I need to buy this stuff, and I could spend the money, $150 and hour usually for therapy, or I could just own the stuff. And I’d rather have the stuff.
Paul: Yeah.
Chris: But I think now actually, um, just being healthy from a mental standpoint is way more important to me. The stuff is—it’s never been really all that important. Like when my kids were young, I would buy two action figures, one to keep in the box and one to open and play with. After a while I’m like, “What am I doing? This is a waste of money.” I could have—
Paul: You’re not the only person I know that does that.
Chris: It’s definitely—I think it’s a generational thing. Because my kids don’t care about that stuff. They don’t collect. They are more into—they like to have things digital but they’ll take a CD, put it in their collection on iTunes and throw the CD away. They don’t want to be burdened by things. And I think having moved a couple times in the past few years I don’t either. I’d like to get rid of all this stuff and, um, so I sort of whittled it down to the collection of things that are precious to me, but even then they’re just things.
Paul: Well I totally relate to the collecting thing and I truly believe that it is our way of coping with anxiety. That’s not to say that there isn’t a genuine of love of stuff that’s in there, but as I’ve done work on myself and peeled the layers of the onion as you call it, um, the intense desire to collect that I used to have has gone away. And—because people—if you listened to the episode of Walking the Room which I was on, they asked me all these questions about my collecting and I forgot how freaky and intense my collecting was. I won’t go into it here, but let’s just say that they were howling. They couldn’t believe how ridiculous it was. And there is—while there’s a quality of it that is awesome and drug-like, it can also begin to negatively impact your life. Have you ever found the collecting bug to negatively impact your life?
Chris: Absolutely it’s negatively affected my life. It’s—I feel when you value a material item over a relationship, that’s when I think it negatively affects. In addition, it can negatively affect from a financial standpoint, where your—I used to say in my head like, “Why do I wanna go to dinner, you know, why do I wanna go to dinner? That’s $60, that’s an Xbox game. Or that’s like, you know, a Hot Toys 1:6 scaled action figure of Batman.” To me, going to dinner is not about the food, it’s about having that relationship with the people in your life, and now I’ve really come to enjoy going to dinner with friends. And before I would just—I would—anything would be, “Why am I spending money on that? I could be buying things.” And the things just aren’t important to me. That really went away. But I do believe that people who are collectors are just hoarders that organize well.
Paul: That’s brilliant.
Chris: Because one of my favorite Tumblrs is called Things Organized Neatly. I love—because I’m—I can’t do—I’m very OCD about things being alphabetized or being in their place and being organized. It’s like an organized—I mean, I know where all my things are, right?
Paul: What’s your OCD nightmare?
Chris: Uh, that someone will come over to my place and it’s—things are not organized. I mean, this is definitely not what I would want this place to be with you coming over, but I feel listening to your show that you would be understanding and that’s definitely my nightmare OCD scenario, is just my stuff being in chaos. Like you will never—every woman, every girl I’ve ever lived with has never had to wash my dishes, has never had to pick up my socks, or—I do all that myself, I’m a man. At least that’s what I would say, “I’m a man. I take care of my own stuff.” But it’s just about me wanting to have control of my own things. I think I definitely have—I think it’s a control issue.
Paul: There was a guy in college that we lived near and he was completely OCD. He would fold his underwear, fold his socks. His shaving cream can would be in a drawer and the razor would be angled such that—so the can wouldn’t roll when you opened the drawer. So when he would go to class we would go into his room and just mess all his shit up.
Chris: (laughs) Well that—the funny thing is I relate to that. Because all my stuff is not only organized, I will look at a space, I will look at a space, whether it’s my bathroom or whatever, and everything is not only in its place, it’s in a place that is the most convenient, to the point where I could just go in the bathroom, close my eyes, I know exactly where everything is. Same thing with my car. I have places where I reach and there’s certain things, uh, I know exactly where they are. Like, I can grab this, that. I had a guy—I had this girlfriend once who had an uncle who worked for NASA. His job was to design the compartments on the space shuttle. He came to the apartment I had in Los Feliz and said, “You have set this up brilliant.” Hearing that compliment from him, like I really think about how is this space organized, where things are, it’s sort of beyond feng shui, it’s like a—I want the space to be the most convenient way. And also it’s a time saver.
Paul: It absolutely is. Absolutely.
Chris: I know where things are so I’m not looking for things. But also this is kind of an OCD/ADD/OCD kind of thing that I have, so I’m definitely ADD. I read some books on it. There’s one, Driven From Distraction, there’s two really good books about ADD that I’ve read and in that book there are 100 things that they ask you yes or no, definitive yes or no questions about whether you have ADD or not. I answered of the 100, 98 definitively yes.
Paul: Really?
Chris: I think I’m ADD. So this was about, uh eight years ago, but I’ve struggled with it my whole life but never knew that I had it until about 7-8 years ago when I started therapy after getting—I was in therapy, actually couples therapy with my then wife, but we ended up getting divorced, but I stuck with that therapist cuz I really liked him. So, see now this is making—
Paul: Are you still in therapy with him?
Chris: Not in therapy with him, but a lot of the coping skills that I read about in this book Driven from Distraction, I already was doing those things. I make—I have to write things down. I have to make a list of everything.
Paul: Are you now in therapy with the person who alphabetically follows his name in the therapist directory?
Chris: (laughs) Uh, no, but I will on occasion – I have taken Adderall and there’s a new one that I’m trying now, although I don’t like it because it lasts 12 hours, and it’s sort of time release so it’s like when you take it you have a window of 12 hours, but it’s for me like putting on a pair of glasses. I see things in my mind in a more clear way.
Paul: What is the nightmare for you—let’s just kind of walk through, let’s say all your stuff is organized and somebody comes through like I did to that guy in college and I mess everything up and everything is out of its place. Just close your eyes and what are the fears that you think are gonna come true when nothing is in its place?
Chris: I won’t be able to find something when I need it. And just to go—to back up a bit because this is an ADD thing – I start to tell the story, I segue into another story, which I think is why I’m better as a guest than a host of a podcast. But I have to have a bowl, it’s usually a decorative bowl, could be a silver bowl, a glass bowl, that’s where my keys go. I always will when I enter a space, I have to have stuff in the same place. If I can’t find something, that will drive me crazy.
Paul: What are the feelings that come up when you can’t find something?
Chris: Fear that I’ve lost it, fear that I will never retrieve that item. So I have had to create these things like having a bowl at my door which is where I always put my stuff.
Paul: Ok, let’s walk through that then. Ok then the fear—let’s say you can’t find it then what happens?
Chris: I will get angry. I get angry and upset at myself.
Paul: No, I’m saying in your mind, what are you afraid—let’s say you can’t find your keys, what’s the fear then that you can’t find your keys? What’s the nightmare, the scenario that kind of comes to your head?
Chris: This is one of the things that I learned to do in my support group, is—we call it “pulling the thread on your fear.”
Paul: Because for me everything leads to me being homeless and nobody loves me.
Chris: Right, right, well that just leads to me just being a failure. Like how could you—I have visions of being a kid, like how could you have lost that fill-in-the-blank: toy, homework assignment, whatever it is. It goes back to that and oh well, I don’t want to disappoint, so I need to make sure that my stuff is in its place because I don’t want to be the disappointing, uh, you know, uh, uh, son, I don’t want to be the disappointing father, I don’t want to be the disappointing companion.
Paul: Was there somebody in your life growing up that you felt you had to please where it was scary to disappoint them?
Chris: Well, let’s see, what would be a good one? Probably my parents. Definitely my parents. I did not ever want to disappoint them. It’s one of those things where I struggle in my own parenting with my kids—I feel like it’s a light touch, but—in terms of parenting, you know. I really think—at least the philosophies that I’ve had, like now being a parent, seeing like oh wow this is tough. And it’s also not tough from the standpoint that you just do what you say you’re gonna do, kids will listen. It’s such a simple thing. It’s like a management thing. Like if you say, “If you cross this line and x happens they y will happen.” And when they do that then you follow that, then they say, “Oh wow, I can’t mess with that.”
Paul: Consequences.
Chris: Consequences. Yeah, and they’re real, so I believe in them. Because too many parents are just lazy and parent by turning on the TV or doing this or just anesthetizing—
Paul: Or they wanna be their kids’ best friend.
Chris: Oh I tell my kids, I said, “I’m not interested in being your friend, I have one job. My job is to give you the skills you need to survive without me. Because I will not be here forever. You’re gonna reach a stage where I will not be around.”
Paul: That’s a bad thing to follow up a bedtime story with.
Chris: Yeah. Yes exactly. Well that’s something I didn’t ever say when they were kids, but I mean now I will say—they’re adults. They’re 17 and 19 so I can have nearly adult conversations with them. Um, but you know, in my own life thinking back I mean it was definitely disappointing my parents and being, you know, unworthy. And I still deal with that—I feel like I deal with that in different ways now. It sort of manifests itself in different ways.
Paul: Were you parents demanding?
Chris: You know what? I think back, I don’t think they were so demanding but I wanted to please them and I wanted their attention.
Paul: Were they like emotionally or physically unavailable?
Chris: My dad was unavailable from the standpoint of physically not being around because he had a demanding job in the auto industry. I’m from Detroit, Michigan, Midwest and he’s in the auto industry and so I just had memories of him going to work and then coming back tired. And then, you know, my parents got married young and had me—I think they were like 22 when they got married and had me about 9 months later, and they got divorced when I was nine. So, and my memory of that was being pulled out of class, taken to the principal’s office to be told by my mother, “Your dad’s left.” And I remember the TV not being there, that he had taken the TV in one room. That was my memory of that event, was, “Aw no TV!” Oh, and no dad.
Paul: What did that feel like?
Chris: Um, I didn’t—at the time I didn’t know how to react. And it was also this house of cards where—the block that I lived on—I had a lot of great friends growing up.
Paul: First of all, why—
Chris: All of the kids in the neighborhood—within a year, almost all of the kids, all of them were fatherless. It was bizarre. And what ended up happening was my grandparents really stepped in. In fact I consider my grandparents, who are no longer here, they’re my surrogate parents. They were my—they stepped in because my mom, I think she cried for probably two years straight. She really just checked out. My dad was trying to get his life together and then during that period of time it was my grandparents that stepped in and they were amazing. They were just—they were a blanket of love, right there, always available. They were tough disciplinarians, you know, they would—here’s the boundaries—and they did that thing, you know, “You’re gonna do this, if you cross the line, here’s the consequences.”
Paul: Why did your mom need to pull you out of school to tell you that?
Chris: I don’t know. I don’t know at the time—
Paul: That seems like unnecessarily drawing attention to something.
Chris: Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if it was something related to logistics with the car, I actually don’t know the reason.
Paul: Oh, ok.
Chris: It might have been a logistical issue.
Paul: Ok.
Chris: But it was like it was—I needed to be pulled out of class and then told this and then—it was a very strange, bizarre experience. But then later, when I got into my teens, and sort of dealt with it—my dad remarried like three years later, I felt like, wow, like they became more affectionate after they kind of dealt with it. Where they were like, “Oh, this is really precious, like these kids are not gonna be young for long, they’re gonna grow up.” And then my dad really made effort to connect and we saw him, if not every other weekend, every weekend. He got remarried and post the divorce, she got into a lot of self-help and through osmosis, she’d be reading self-help books and she’d start to tell me what was in those books. “Oh Wayne Dyer says this,” or this. So I was getting this sort of like, you know, Cliff Notes version of every single self-help book that she did. She ended up—
Paul: Did you enjoy that?
Chris: I liked it. I liked—to me I looked on self-improvement as—this is a very nerdy thing—I looked on it as like, my heroes were fictional heroes, my heroes were people like, you know, Captain Kirk from Star Trek and I thought like, “Well this stuff—“ because physically I was not the greatest specimen, I was picked last often in gym class. So …
Paul: I would’ve thought a guy who started his own magazine would’ve gone first or second.
Chris: (laughs) No, no. But I uh—those fictional heroes, in my mind I would think like, “Oh, you know, my dad used to ….” That wasn’t my dad, that was William Shatner said that. But in my mind I’d taken these sort of fatherly figures in television and movies and kind of—they—I really looked toward father figures. That’s why learning that Darth Vader—sorry, spoiler—Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker’s father, was devastating when I was a teenager. That was like, oh my God, how could the most evil force in the universe be the father of the hero? That doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like finding out your dad is Hitler. It really messed with my head at the time.
But my mom really got into these self-help books and eventually she did EST. And then the knowledge of that kind of—
Paul: EST was a ‘70’s program that was about breaking you down to build you back up. Am I reading that correctly?
Chris: That’s accurate. It’s an expensive weekend-long event where, yeah, you’re right, they beat the crap out of you and then by the end you’re better for it.
Paul: Emotionally they break you down.
Chris: Yeah, eventually I ended up doing it. I ended up doing—and then they did a thing called The Forum. I think that was different than EST. It was sort of post-EST. They were trying to rebrand themselves.
Paul: Did you feel like you got something out of doing EST?
Chris: Yes I do, only because I feel like therapy—there’s a lot of patience. When it comes to any sort of group therapy experience, I feel the patience is less—you have to—there are things expected of you when it comes to any sort of group experience.
Paul: Also they don’t have a vested interest in not offending you. Whereas a therapist they—while they are there to tell you the truth, they will sometimes err on the side of not calling you on your shit. That’s where I think support groups are really good because you’re gonna get an unvarnished opinion. A good therapist will give you their unvarnished opinion where they think it is necessary. They won’t give it to you for the sake of hurting your feelings. But group therapy, sometimes it may even err on the other side, where somebody with an issue gives you their opinion and it’s really them blowing something out of proportion because of their own issue, but the bottom line is you—there’s no kind of—you’re not being treated with kid gloves sometimes when … I don’t know if I’m—I think therapy—
Chris: I think you’re describing it perfectly. It’s more confrontational. It’s way more confrontational.
Paul: But it can also be incredibly loving and the confrontation can come about in a way that is genuine and it’s not unnecessarily cruel, it’s just, “Hey, you need to grow up about this thing and we love you but we’re gonna let you know here is something that you do that is negatively affecting your life.”
Chris: And it’s interesting because I remember being slightly disappointed when at the end of this—because I’m thinking in my head as I’m going through this, like, this is going to mentally get me to a place where I’ll be a Jedi, you know. I’ll be a Jedi from having reached a place in my mental state where I’m able to be more self-aware and I felt I would be, you know, good for Starfleet. That was sort of the key, key thing in my head – like this is a good thing, like this is something where I may not be the best physical specimen but I can focus on elements in my mind and I can get better at those things because I was very goal-oriented even as a kid, making short films when I was nine. I had a newspaper route when I was nine years old also. I always had money. I bought a car when I was 14 years old even though—I wanted—I couldn’t wait to drive.
Paul: Do you have problems sleeping?
Chris: You know, I will go through periods where I have problems sleeping and it’s generally, it’s one of two things: something in my diet or stress. So definitely problems sleeping. And I sleep, I tend to sleep less. I tend to sleep about six hours.
Paul: What are some seminal events in your life other than the divorce of your parents?
Chris: Um, I would say the death of my grandparents. But it was—it wasn’t, um ….
Paul: Did it happen at the same time?
Chris: No they were—I mean my grandmother, my Meema, died of cancer after my grandfather, this was several years after my grandfather. But the regret I have about my grandfather is that I had just moved to Los Angeles, I was back and forth, my daughter was, you know, about to be born, but I would go back to Michigan fairly frequently when I first moved to Los Angeles. But I would talk to my grandfather and I was like, “Hey, um, you know, I’ll see you tomorrow or whatever, I’m gonna hang out with friends.” We were supposed to get together and I decided I’m gonna hang out with my friends, I’ll see you later grandpa. Cuz I would always see my grandpa. And that night he had a stroke. The next time I saw him, he was laying in the hospital, and half of his face droop—was drooping like as happens you know with stroke victims. He kind of recognized me, I mean, he was in tears and I remember just holding his hand and looking at him and he couldn’t speak and it was, I mean, a short time later I died. I regret not going to see him that day.
Paul: Which I think is totally normal. I think that’s the first place people go to because the emotion that comes up is so intense, you need someplace to direct it. And the place we usually direct it is at ourselves. I mean, hopefully you can understand looking back on it that you did nothing wrong. There’s no way that you could have known that.
Chris: Looking back but at the same time I think, “I never had that last conversation. I never had that last hug, I never had that last I love you.” You know, none of that.
Paul: Did you get to say stuff to him?
Chris: I did, I did in the hospital. I’m just not sure how—whether he was able to understand.
Paul: I think if he had tears in his eyes, he probably understood what was going on and he was probably lucid.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, and I’ve read a lot about—
Paul: Unless he had just been pepper sprayed.
Chris: Right, right, exactly. But, um, I mean, I love my grandparents because they had such a great sense of humor. They not only were effectively my surrogate parents, when my parents first got divorce they effectively checked out and were doing their own thing. This was the ‘70’s so that was, “Let’s find ourselves.”
Paul: A lot of key parties.
Chris: Yeah, again, key parties and selfishness. And now I think the way selfishness is manifested is in our online personas and “look at me” kind of stuff.
Paul: And I think there’s good selfishness and there’s bad selfishness.
Chris: Right. I agree with that. There’s definitely self-preservation selfishness that’s actually a good thing, keeping yourself—
Paul: And feeding yourself. And making sure that you have time for yourself.
Chris: Absolutely, you know, both emotionally and physically in those respects. But my grandparents really stepped in and they were just—I mean they grew up during the Depression era where they’d have a potato would feed a family of six. I mean, that’s what they had to eat. They were Polish and Russian. But their sense of humor was amazing. Through all of their struggles—my God, I remember this one time where my grandfather was reading us a scary story. And I had my friends over—this is what was funny – all the kids in this particular neighborhood, I had told you, inevit—invariably all of the kids had suddenly, the dads disappeared. It was like the exodus of the dads, all leaving. All the kids in the neighborhood—when my grandparents, and sort of stepped in, they would come and stay at our house for a few days, with me and my sister. All of the kids gravitated towards them because they didn’t have the strong, you know, male figure in their life. They didn’t have strong mothers, the mothers were all devastated from this and they kind of took over, so …
Paul: And women were all going through a real sea change in the ‘70’s. For people that weren’t alive then, you know, for some of our younger listeners, like I remember my mom all of the sudden saying, “You know what? You boys are going to do the fucking dishes.”
Chris: And I did the dishes. I-I—but it was definitely a change for women for sure. I mean that was—and I think in the long run has been a good thing.
Paul: Absolutely.
Chris: But at the time really my grandparents were the heroes in our neighborhood, and I would actually be able to bring several friends and we would beg, like, please, let’s go—we wanna go to your grandparents’ house cuz they lived in Grand Lake, Michigan, which was kind of more in the middle of the country. And they’d take us cherry picking and we’d go feed the deer and we would do—they’d make us work, actually. They’d make us do a lot of work and it was hard and I remember complaining and thinking like I really learned a lot doing that.
So, um, my grandfather’s reading us this scary, scary story that’s on the second floor of their house and in the scary story, it was about a ghost that would come and knock, knock, knock on the door. And we’re sitting there and we hear a bang, bang, bang, outside of the second floor window. We freaked out. My friends and I are screaming. We run downstairs. My grandmother had climbed on the outside of the roof of the house, gone up there, and they had planned this in advance to scare the crap out of us. This is the lengths they would go to to play practical jokes on us. Was—it was amazing, you know?
Paul: Oh my god, that must have scared the shit out of you.
Chris: It definitely did, it definitely did, because he built up this whole thing and they were - it was one of those things where they were storytellers and he was in Navy, it was one of those things where he was in World War II. And my gr—they used to do that thing where I remember reading my grandparents’ letters to each other. Love letters that would just make you sob, because what they would do—I heard about this thing were if you were in the Navy, right, what you would do is you would keep a journal where you were away from your wife, you know, there’s no internet, there’s no phones, there’s no mode of communication. They would keep journals—your wife would keep a journal and then when you get back, there would be a lot of sex, no time to talk, and then they would just exchange journals.
Paul: Really?
Chris: So that’s how couples in the military during that period of time were able to know—and much of it was mundane. But then you got to experience exactly what was going on with the other person. And that’s how marriages stayed strong during that time. I think it’s a beautiful concept.
Paul: That’s—wow, I’d never heard of that. Sounds amazing.
Chris: My grandparents were married 50 years. And I actually—they renewed their vows at 50 years and I did the service. I remarried them.
Paul: That’s beautiful.
Chris: Yeah, so they’re my heroes and I mean I definitely see elements—I think my whole family has a great sense of humor and I see, whether it’s in my—you know, when I look at stuff that I’ve written or just comedy and stuff, my sense of humor has always come from that, you know, that environment. We just would make fun of each other a lot in a good way.
Paul: I can’t tell you how many people I’ve come across whose emotional well-being was really rescued or saved by their grandparents because the parents were just too fucked up.
Chris: I guess it does take a village, you know, I mean—but they also came from a different era so their parenting—they were tougher on me and that’s what I needed.
Paul: But there was also love in there?
Chris: Oh, absolutely. Oh there was, oh like I never wanted to disappoint them. I wanted to pick all the cherries. I wanted to do the task that was in front of me. I wanted to, you know, I wanted to please them for sure. So I see how that today even affects me of it’s—if I disappoint another person, whether it be someone in my life, whether it be my kids or whether it be an audience who watches, who likes what I do in some form of entertainment, I just have a desire to please.
Paul: What would it be like when you would disappoint them? Was it punishment or were they just disappointed and that feeling that they had ate at you?
Chris: Disappointing them was the worst possible thing.
Paul: Can you remember any particular instances?
Chris: I remember—it wouldn’t be like grades or anything. I was actually really good in school so that wasn’t a difficult endeavor.
Paul: That’s not a shocker.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, I did ok in school. I did ok. No one had to tell me to do my homework, I wanted to do it. So I just had the ability to like—I could read and just remember everything. Now post having kids, my memory’s awful. My memory’s the worst—I feel like—and I’ve heard this before. I’ve read where when you have kids it’s just such an emotional experience that for some people who have kids, not everybody, it’s like your brain is reformatted. It reformats your brain where a certain chunk of your brain is used for your kids. So I know—I can mark when I had kids my memory went down the tubes.
But one of the biggest cases where I disappointed my grandparents was my was out of town, I knew the house was gonna be, you know—I was a teenager, so I was probably like 16-17 at the time and I had a party at my house and there was beer, and there were kids in high school, and I was popular. Why? Because I was the house where you could go and they were drinking beer. And my grandparents came by and they didn’t tell me. They saw what was happening at the house and they called the cops on me. And, so—and then they called to tell me never do that again, because we’re not going to come to break up the party, the cops will. So I felt horrible. I never did that again, um, and you know, it had an effect on me for sure.
Paul: Wow.
Chris: I did not want to disappoint my grandparents.
Paul: I just flashed on a memory that I had where my grandmother was sitting for us and we—she’s sitting in the family room watching TV, and the kitchen is right behind her. And the kitchen has a sliding glass door that leads to outside, and there’s stairs outside that lead to downstairs and I was having people over and we slid the sliding door open and carried a keg of beer in behind my grandmother. And I thought I had, you know, it all under control and after a certain point, after the 40th you know, trip to the bathroom by somebody to pee, she said, “I know what you’re doing down there.” She never told my parents but ….
Chris: My parents had a—when it came to alcohol, they were, you know, like, “Ok, if you’re gonna do it, just be at home and don’t drive,” you know. And on occasion, you know, before I was 21—wait a sec, was the drinking age different then? This was the ‘70’s, I think it might have been 18 actually and then they raised it to 21 now that I think about it. But my mom allowed me a few times, a few choice times, to like, ok, you can have that but you’re not going anywhere, you’re in my sight. So, it also made it not taboo.
Paul: Do you feel like doing a fear-off? Is there any other stuff that you want to talk about or touch on?
Chris: I really feel like we—we hit a lot. I mean I, you know, I just feel like, you know, whenever I go through a phase—I feel like I’m going through a phase right now, currently in my life.
Paul: Let’s talk about that.
Chris: Like, I’m at like a weird crossroads. I’m feeling an urgency because I’m 46 years old. I can get away—my hair gives me away, but I can get away with looking younger, but, I’m at that stage where all the things I wanted to do, I haven’t done a bunch of those things yet and I really have this whole—
Paul: That shocks me. Because you seem like the kind of guy who, you know, you sleep six hours a night, you’ve got your own craft room, you created your own magazine. I mean, fuck most of us look at guys like you and go, “Why can’t I be like that guy that starts his own magazine?”
Chris: Here’s a funny story. I dropped out of college, not because I wanted to, but because my parents were fighting about who should actually pay to support me through college and I’m sitting here, “Hey, I’d like to finish college.” Got two years in and between the financial aid and me working three jobs, I said I have to quit, I have to drop out. Also there was sort of sense from my standpoint of look, I’m not trying to be a surgeon, I am paying a lot of money for books I could buy on my own, read, and then know that stuff. And I read a book on how to publish a magazine and I said you know what? I’m gonna start my own magazine.
Here’s the irony, I dropped out of college, years later I wrote a book about film festivals that’s how to take your independent film and sort of independently market it and sell it at film festivals. And people like Morgan Spurlock have read my book, Jared Hess who did Napoleon Dynamite, they’ve read the book and it helped them sell their movies.
Paul: Really?
Chris: Now my book is required reading in college.
Paul: That’s awesome!
Chris: But I’ll say, “But I’m a college dropout.” So, that I’m very proud of, however, I didn’t get into this—I got into this to make media, make films that I—I produced a comedy called My Big Fat Independent Movie which was mildly received by the critics, but I have this impending thing where I haven’t done this stuff. Like why don’t I have more money? Why am I not more successful? Why am I not able—my kids are in college—one of my kids is in college now—I really can’t help her as much as I would like. So I have this—like I actually think it was the destruction of my last relationship, was specifically because of this sense that I have to—I’m in a race to achieve some kind of success that I haven’t gotten to yet. And my last relationship I put so much attention on these new career goals I set for myself that I ignored the relationship and she broke up with me and we were living together for a year. I thought I was gonna get remarried and I had to—I moved out. So there’s all kinds of pleasant things happening, um …
Paul: I think, Chris, I think that is one of the most common struggles that people have, is—we all have such an intense fear about financial survival and we also have an intense need to be loved and to be in a healthy relationship and where is that line where—how do we know how to give each thing its own energy?
Chris: Well it’s weird, like, I feel like—I’m very regimented in my life. I have lists and things and I give myself permission to slide on deadlines, that’s my—procrastination I say is part of my writing process. But, uh, I think that one is fairly common among writers. But um I just felt this pending, like oh my God, I don’t think I’m gonna be at my current job forever. You know, I’ve been there for seven years.
Paul: At G4.
Chris: At G4. I don’t think I’m gonna be there forever, you know, and that’s fine. Seven years is the longest running job I’ve had in TV, and as you know working in television, do like two seasons. Usually shows I’m on they last about two years, I’m grateful for the work, I understand it’s a freelance business. People that aren’t in entertainment don’t understand that it’s always a struggle. But goals I’ve set for myself I haven’t achieved those so the last couple of years I feel like it’s been a race. And then I get into this thing where it’s like oh—cuz I’ve had three relationships, three serious relationships post-divorce. Three women I thought, “Hey, this is serious.” And the last one I thought was the one that work out the best. I know that I’ve done this—and of course it’s the thing where you learn the lesson when it’s too late—I feel like when I’ve got a relationship I look on that like I’ve got a couch. Not that I look on my—the woman that’s in my life as a material thing, but it’s like, “Got a couch, don’t need to buy another couch. I’ve got that couch, it’s handled, it’s in the living room, it’s there.” A woman is not a couch. A woman is someone who needs—they need attention and love more than a plant or a pet for sure. And it’s something that has to be maintained and it has to be reconfirmed constantly and I don’t do that. I have seen how I let—I think, “Well that’s ok. Sure I feel the last week I’ve been unavailable to you maybe time-wise or whatever.” But it festers in the relationship the woman feels like she’s not getting attention.
Paul: I think that’s one of the most mistakes people make in a relationship is they think once that person has accepted you, once they’ve let you sleep with them, ok, I’ve done my part and that’s the biggest mistake. All it means is you’ve won their trust.
Chris: Yeah.
Paul: But you need to keep their trust every day by feeding that relationship and that’s, for some reason, I don’t know why, so many of us, and I include myself, the biggest complaint my wife has is—I took her for granted in doing something, I wasn’t considerate. And I totally get that. I totally get that.
Chris: What’s your wife’s name? Maybe I was, maybe I know her? But I’ve been, you know, that’s been a recurring thing. I kind of do the same thing in every relationship, I get in the relationship, it’s solid, I’m Mr. Perfect Boyfriend, Mr. Perfect Husband, whatever it is, and then I fail. And then I end saying, “Well now I’ll put all my attention toward the career goals.” And then the relationship suffers. So I’m trying to do the sea change where I started doing standup comedy like two years ago and I’ve been doing improv shows and then I started a podcast. So I’ve been doing things where I’m trying to change my career. People have known me as a film critic and whenever I hear that I bristle because, first of all, a) I was not a very good film critic. I would always go—I prefer to always go for a joke than make a really insightful observation, even though I was capable of making insightful observations about films, but usually ones that other critics didn’t think about because I thought—I came at it from the standpoint of a film maker, not as a critic. So, I spent my, you know, I spent years, you know, having this identity which was never really me, like. And I had a manager at the time, who I’m no longer with thankfully, who said, “No, you’re like a hip Roger Ebert.” And it’s like I don’t want to ever be that. I don’t wanna be that. I wanna write and I wanna create television and cartoons and you know, entertainment, whatever that is, in whatever form and so I’ve been working on this for the last two years and it affected this relationship.
Paul: I can hear it in your voice. There’s a sense of urgency when you talk about your career, just your life in general. There’s an urgency about you that to me, underneath it is this myth I think you have in your head that you’re not already successful.
Chris: Yes, I don’t think I’m successful.
Paul: You are successful. Look at your house – you have your own fucking craft room. You have two kids out there that seem well behaved and they were nice and polite to me as I came in. They seem well adjusted. You’re on a TV show. You started your own magazine. What is it gonna take to make you happy, Chris?
Chris: A healthy relationship, debt free and working on something where I’m behind the scenes and not on camera. I’m gonna write that down. That’s gonna be—because I have to write it down. When you’re ADD you have to write it down and I will—if I’m going to bed and I know I can’t sleep, the thing will help me get to sleep is like, ok, get—write it down and get it out of my head. It’s like oh it’s on paper now I can go to sleep. Cuz I don’t want to forget it.
Paul: Let me ask you this. Have you ever felt that you are ok, that you are in that place where you can then relax? Because I have the feeling you’ve never allowed yourself to be there and you’re living under the illusion that it’s going to happen, but unless you can feel that at this very moment, until you can learn how to feel that you’re ok in this moment, it’s gonna be this carrot that you’re gonna keep chasing.
Chris: Unequivocally, without thinking, absolutely never. I have never felt that I’ve been successful. I’ve never felt that I can relax. I’ve always thought about, like, even when it comes to whatever the business is, we gotta start a YouTube channel, we gotta start this. There’s always like the next thing I’m kind of adding because it’s not enough, it’s not enough. And I feel like—I’ve had even friends tell me, it like, you know, “You don’t have to work that hard at it. You can just have it be this. And it’s fine.”
Paul: You’ve got a roof over your head, we’re in an air-conditioned room. Your kids were grilling hot dogs out there. You’ve got food to eat. They’re taken care of. Your girl is in college.
Chris: My kid’s not pregnant. They’re not—my daughter’s not pregnant, my kids aren’t on drugs, and I’m really proud of the fact that they have friends, like really good friends, like my kids are—they’re not racists, assholes, or bullies. But at the same time I’m still—I feel like it’s like I, you know, I’ve not made it. I’ve not made it. I’m still—I think it’s maybe because of the moniker, it’s like, “Oh you’re the film critic that started Film Threat.” No, it’s like I’ve written books, I’ve made movies, I’ve you know, created television shows. And I feel like an asshole pointing out—I feel like an asshole often. But I feel like more of asshole pointing out, it’s like, “I’m all these other things, you just—I just—you just know me as this one thing. But you know in an entertainment career people can only know you as that one thing – you’re that guy X, and then they know you as this thing. You do comedy or you do this thing.
Paul: I’m gonna stop you for a second.
Chris: Sure.
Paul: I know a little bit about addiction and compulsive thinking, trust me, I don’t know many things in this world, this I absolutely know. Until you can get to the point were you can accept were you are in your life, at this very moment, no matter what is going on, you’re gonna keep chasing that myth. Because even if you get those things that you think are gonna allow you to calm down, the second you get them, they’re either not gonna be enough or your obsession is then going to turn to your fear of losing them. And you’re never gonna—you have to give yourself the permission to relax. Now that is way easier said than done. I have to meditate, I have to pray, I have to go to support groups, I have to do a lot of other stuff. I’m not saying that you have to do those things, but I’m saying you’re chasing a ghost.
Chris: Well I justify—first of all, everything you said, absolutely true. Like I’ve even said that out loud, like—but I justify that feeling in my mind, it’s like I need this bad feeling about myself, because that’s what pushes me. So I’m going to need—
Paul: But you’ll always be …
Chris: In a state of discontent.
Paul: That’s a lie, that’s a lie because then it ruins your relationships with other people because when you’re at dinner with them your mind is spinning about what your next project is, and it degrades the quality of your presence with other human beings.
Chris: It’s even worse during sex, I can just tell you that from a fact, when you fill it up with ideas for like I gotta do that thing for my podcast.
Paul: It’s insidious!
Chris: Yes, I know.
Paul: Can’t you see that that’s insidious?
Chris: I do now with you telling me. You know what, you should charge to be on this podcast. It’s that good. This is better than they $150 an hour I’ve spent.
Paul: That’s just because I’m so fucked up I’ve had to live all of these things. I’ve had to bump my head into a wall. None of this is by any brilliant insight on my own. I have just made so many mistakes in my life, when I see somebody else—and not to call what you’re doing a mistake, it’s just that it’s wasted energy. You’re ok as you are.
Chris: I’ll get there. I like just, you know—your podcast has been, first of all I have to compliment you, this has been a service to the community. I mean, I blew through a weekend where I listened to like 15 episodes. People I—comedians I knew, people I didn’t know, it’s just amazing how—the insight that you have, how revealing you are, and I-I wanna thank you, for just doing this podcast.
Paul: Well guess what? My numbers are never enough.
Chris: Yes.
Paul: There’s a perfect example. That’s how sick this is.
Chris: How come you’re not number one on iTunes in the comedy category, you know. Oh, I’ll bump up every once in a while and my podcast will be in the top 100, it’s like, “Oh, ok, cool, I’m at 92.” What does that mean? I don’t know. But like, yeah, you’re right, I-I-I-I’m with you, I’m always checking like well where am I at now? Why is that number not bigger? Yeah, wow.
Paul: So even knowing that I have that sickness inside me, that still—it’s still difficult. And I think part of the reason is: a) it’s just a difficult thing because for one our society programs us to believe that our accomplishments are who we are and that’s where we gain out validation from, and two, I think we get a little bit of a hit when we get a little bit of that, of that goal accomplished, but it’s fleeting. And I think we need—I think our souls need something—it think that’s candy for our soul and I think our souls need meat and potatoes. And for me meaning, purpose, is that meat and potatoes. That is the only thing that’s ever filled that hole in me and allowed me to calm down and feel—like me talking to you right now, is meat and potatoes. I feel like I was put on this earth to talk about what I’m talking about, be here right now with you. I’m sure you’ve had feelings when you are with your kids where you know there’s no other place in the world you’re meant to be and you feel bliss and completely… So to me life is about stringing together as many of those moments as possible and quieting that part of my brain that tells me I’m blowing it, I’ve fucked up, I’ve slept too late too many days in a row, I’ve made the wrong decisions, I’m not enough, I don’t have enough, and I’m not doing enough.
Chris: Isn’t awareness half the battle, right?
Paul: It is. It’s the first step, is being aware of it. And I just hear in your voice a panic that makes me feel like you need to be reminded that you are enough, that you are doing enough, that you have enough.
Chris: Yeah, it’s so funny that you—I mean you really tuned in, I mean you are someone who can read people in—just by their vibe, their presence. You’re very observational. Yes I do—that is exactly—that is actually why I wanted to be on your podcast, was just to talk about this. Why am I going through this? I feel like—describing to a friend is like the physical feeling is like I’m taking a battleship, right, and I’m trying to turn it 180 degrees in another direction, and it’s like this, and I can’t turn it. No matter what I do, no matter how much effort, in fact more effort actually makes it more difficult to turn.
Paul: Yes. Why not go with the direction that it’s in and celebrate and when I remember that, I have the best time. I have the best fucking time.
Chris: Well, it’s interesting. Where I lose myself and that feeling goes away is when I see movies. Movies, or, you know, there’s so much great television as well. When I get caught up in other stories, I stop thinking about myself. And when I’ve had some really dark times, um, post-breakup usually, I just do volunteer work. That’s what gets me—like any volunteer work, it’s like, oh, like that—it gets me out of my head.
Paul: Makes you grateful.
Chris: Makes me feel grateful for my situation so that’s—maybe I need to return to that.
Paul: I think absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. And to me volunteer work has saved my life. I’m telling you, when you do volunteer work, you get absolutely as much out of it as anybody that you’re helping, sometimes more so.
Chris: I agree, I agree. That has, that has helped me tremendously.
Paul: It helps you slow down when you can’t slow down on your own. It’s almost like a governor for anxiety.
Chris: I agree.
Paul: Let’s got to a fear-off.
Chris: Let’s do it.
Paul: I am going to be reading the fears, continuing on a list of fears from a listener named Victoria. And she says, “I’m afraid of being crushed by falling objects.”
Chris: Crushed by falling objects?
Paul: Actually, I think I’ve done that one already. I’m gonna …
Chris: Switch to a different one?
Paul: I’m gonna go to her next one. She says, “I’m afraid that people can hear my thoughts no matter how much I tell myself it’s not possible.”
Chris: I’m afraid of the death of my kids and my parents.
Paul: How could you not be?
Chris: Yeah.
Paul: “I’m afraid of being accused of a crime and being unable to convince people I’m innocent.” I have that one. It’s so deep. I completely relate to that one.
Chris: Disappointing the people I love.
Paul: “I’m afraid that even with medication and therapy I won’t be able to rise above my depression and anxiety.”
Chris: Ooo. Mine is—I have to qualify this one—authority. But authority in the form of corporations, teachers, executives, people who work in the Human Resources department specifically, cuz I kind of feel that’s like going to the office when you’re a kid, and anyone in charge, with the exception of cops, firemen, mailmen, because I feel like I’m kinda cool with those people, so those types of authority, it’s like oh, they’re the authority for good, but authority that I find threatening—like whenever I get called into the Human Resources department to have a meeting, we just want to talk to you, it’s never good. It’s I’m going to be fired, it’s a conflict with, you know, a coworker. I’m afraid of the Human Resources department, those kinds of authority, like any executive in a company, even though I’ve met like great executives when I’ve worked at TV networks or whatever, there are good ones out there, whenever I have to interact with one I feel very nervous. It’s a weird authority to be afraid of.
Paul: Human Resources people can often overreact to you photocopying your balls during the day.
Chris: Haven’t we all done that?
Paul: Victoria says, “I’m afraid of answering the door when I’m home alone.”
Chris: I’m afraid that I really am a failure at relationships with women and I will die alone.
Paul: I think so many people have that one. Victoria says, “I’m afraid of bodies of water that are deeper than I am tall.” I’m guessing she can’t swim.
Chris: Deadlines.
Paul: “I’m afraid of walking face first into a spider web, did it last night.”
Chris: This one is – I’m afraid that person who I don’t really that I think might hate me, because the last thing I said to them was really stupid and I can’t stop thinking about it, and wish I had said something different, but it was probably not a big deal, and I’m sure that other person isn’t even thinking about that awkward, dumb, idiotic last thing I said, but I am. I actually wrote that run on sentence.
Paul: You are good. You are good, Chris Gore. Victoria says, “I’m afraid of holding my emotions and exploding in a clichéd workplace shooting.”
Chris: Oh no. I’m afraid of getting fired from a job.
Paul: She says, “I’m afraid of dying before my mom and her finding my vibrator.” (both laugh) That’s awesome.
Chris: I think we all have sort of like—there is—you have to have some sort of failsafe way to get rid of all that porn.
Paul: You always think about that, you know, when you, when you, uh, pop that porn in, the porn DVD. What, you know, what happens if …
Chris: I’ve got a pretty good porn collection, I’m kind of proud of it. Some good things. Some good European stuff I would be proud, I think that’s classy, it’s arty. It’s European. All right. Sorry about that.
I’m afraid that I will never accomplish anything meaningful or useful and I’ll be remembered for nothing.
Paul: You realize that that’s already untrue?
Chris: Yeah, no, but yeah, I mean, maybe. It’s great when other people say it.
Paul: But it’s never enough.
Chris: It’s never enough, no.
Paul: It’s never enough.
Chris: No it’s not.
Paul: Victoria says, “I’m afraid people don’t understand my sense of humor and misinterpret my sarcasm as bitchiness.” Maybe it is, Victoria! I don’t know.
Chris: I’m afraid of credit card debt.
Paul: “I’m afraid that experiencing déjà vu means there is something wrong with my brain.”
Chris: I’m afraid of making customer service phone calls when I know that I will be on the phone for a while and the call may drop before I actually resolve the issue, and then I’ll have to make the call a second time and start all over again. And I actually fear that to the point where I avoid making customer service calls to begin with because the call drops and it’s like constant, it takes me hours to resolve.
Paul: It’s so aggravating. Victoria says, and this is her last fear, “I’m afraid I sound like a maudlin cunt.”
Chris: That kind of goes with mine. My last one is, my fear is that I really am an asshole.
Paul: I can’t tell you how many times there’s synchronicity in reading the fear lists or the love lists. It’s amazing.
Chris: That’s weird.
Paul: I love it, I love it. Do you have a love list?
Chris: I do have a love list.
Paul: Let’s do that.
Chris: All right, let’s go. Who should go first?
Paul: You go first.
Chris: Now I just wanna qualify this one by saying this is aside from my kids, family.
Paul: Yes, the generic ones. I like the more specific ones. I like—we all know, you know, I love Kool-Aid.
Chris: Exactly, so this is aside from that.
Paul: Kool-Aid, could have picked another one that some people might actually not like?
Chris: Hearing you say that, it’s so hot right now, I kind of want some Kool-Aid. Number one: Internet, porn, TV, videogames. You know, like everyone.
Paul: Victoria says, “I love in the spring and fall the way the sun will break through the clouds as it’s setting and highlight everything golden against gray, dreary rainclouds.” That’s beautiful.
Chris: That is beautiful. Number two: cinema. The movie theater, it’s my church.
Paul: Victoria says, “I love the word,” I don’t even know how to pronounce this, “taiga.” Tay-a-ga? Tie-ga? I don’t even know what it means.
Chris: I don’t know. Well, there you go. Mine’s simple – I love the small of a woman’s back. And ass. Basically the naked female form. I love naked females.
Paul: The part of a woman’s body that has always turned me on that kind of baffles me a little bit is the back of a woman’s neck. I don’t know what it is, when women wear their hair up, I just find the back of the neck just irresistible. Victoria says, “I love Edgar Allen Poe and Pablo Neruda.”
Chris: I love Star Wars.
Paul: “I love when I can get over my shyness and smile at strangers. I especially love when they smile back.”
Chris: I love cuddling after sex of course, and sex. Cuddling and sex are kind of combined.
Paul: “I love when people recommend a band they think I will like and they are right.”
Chris: I love the Smashing Pumpkins. That’s so funny, the synchronicity.
Paul: Yeah. Victoria says, “I love going to movies at the drive-in.”
Chris: I love that too. There’s only two drive-ins left in the LA area. That’s a great one. I love a woman who will dress up during sex, especially as slave Leia.
Paul: Especially as what?
Chris: Slave Leia that outfit.
Paul: Oh, from Star Wars?
Chris: From Star Wars, yes. That’s combining my nerdiness and my love of naked women.
Paul: That’s awesome. I love that a woman would do that too. Victoria says, “I love the smell of onions and garlic sautéing on the stove.” That does smell good.
Chris: That’s good. I love doing something creative and the satisfaction that comes from making something from nothing. Like art or a mod or a film or a podcast or a book a piece of writing.
Paul: That’s great. Victoria says, “I love seeing elderly couples bickering in that loving way that only comes after years together and partial hearing loss.” (both laugh) That’s fantastic.
Chris: I love when the trailers start before a movie.
Paul: “I love knowing the answers to final Jeopardy, even better when the contestant doesn’t get it.”
Chris: I love—it’s a tie, Batman and Zombies.
Paul: “I love when people remember my favorite songs.”
Chris: I love movie soundtracks.
Paul: “I love reconnecting with an old friend and still getting along really well.”
Chris: I love Aimee Mann and her music.
Paul: “I love eating grape tomatoes straight off the vine.”
Chris: I love passionate arguments with friends at the bar at Comic-Con.
Paul: That needs to be more specific. And this is Victoria’s last one. “I love that since I have started my fear list, I have realized some of them are so ridiculous I’m not afraid any more.” Oh that’s beautiful.
Chris: That is beautiful. And I have one last one as well.
Paul: Fucking synchronicity!
Chris: Perfect. My last one is I love cleaning.
Paul: Chris Gore, thank you so much for being a guest and opening up and being honest. I really appreciate it.
Chris: Thank you Paul. Your podcast is, like I say, it’s an amazing service to the community. It really is.
Paul: Thank you.
Chris: Thanks.
Paul: Many thanks to Chris Gore – what a great guy. I’m so glad that he came on and crashed. Crashed the podcast. He just goes on his and talks about what a dick I was. I’d get over it. I’d accept it. I’d work with it. I would go in the direction of him being a dick and celebrate that. And then I’d fire bomb his fucking house. Yeah, that’s right. I’d blame it on the beast. Fucking beast did it.
Before I take it out with some listener surveys, I want to remind you guys there’s a couple of different ways to support the podcast, unless you wanna be a dick and not support it. Fine. Go be dicks. There uh—at the website, mentalpod.com, you can support it financially by making a one time PayPal donation or my favorite, a recurring monthly donation. I really appreciate you guys that have been doing that. In fact, I have, I don’t know, and this is where the beast has climbed on my back now and is in firm control of my thoughts, I have some old hockey jerseys from—I get invited sometimes to play in celebrity hockey tournaments when they can’t find any real celebrities. And it’s usually a nice jersey and it’s got my name on the back but it’s not something I’m comfortable wearing out like in public, or even when I’m playing hockey. It just feels too like, “Hey, look at me!” And so I was gonna give it to Goodwill, and I thought, I don’t want to see some fucking—bump into some stranger wearing my jersey, so I thought, “Why don’t I see if any of the monthly donors want any of those jerseys.” And so, I think I’ve got like three or four of them, so the first three or four people, um, that are monthly donors, if you want to email me I’ll be happy to ship those to you. And right now the beast is going, “Nobody gives a fuck about your jersey, you pompous ass. Who do you think you are, fucking Magic Johnson? You were on a shit show, and you’re not even a good hockey player. Your podcast barely registers on the radar. God, who do you think you are?” That is honestly what is going through my head right now. And I don’t really know where the truth lies. That is honest-to-God truth.
All right, I’m gonna read a survey. And by the way, you can email me at mentalpod@gmail.com. Or email me and mock me for being a pompous ass, either one. This was from the Shame and Secrets survey and this was filled out by a guy who calls himself Romey. He’s straight, he’s in his 60’s and he was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. He writes, “My parents never talked about their problems. My mother took my two younger siblings and left my father and I when I was just 14. He didn’t want to me married anymore.”
“Ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” He says no.
“Deepest, darkest thoughts?” He writes, “I want to not just kill but maim for life all those assholes who picked on and humiliated me when I was growing up from 6 to 13.”
“Most powerful sexual fantasies?” He writes, “Being restrained and physically beaten by an older, big-breasted woman dressed only in underwear until I ejaculate. Then still restrained, forced to use my tongue to stimulate her to orgasm.”
“Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?” He writes, “Never! This is a scenario I fantasize often when i masturbate. I then feel totally ashamed of myself. I could never expose myself to the ridicule of others – I feel humiliated enough.”
“What are your deepest, darkest secrets?” He writes, “When I was 12 I was so aroused seeing my mother’s underwear that I stole her bra one afternoon and put it on in the privacy of my bedroom. And while in my bed, rubbed my penis between my legs harder and harder until I had my first sexual orgasm. It was mind-blowing. The convulsions shocked and scared the holy shit out of me. I had no idea what the fuck was happening. I thought I was going to die right there. After a few days I realized I wasn’t going to die or be struck dead by God, so I tried it again, wearing the same bra, alone in my room and another intense orgasm. Not any of the fear though. Just the convulsing shock of orgasm through my whole body. I have been addicted to masturbating, porn, and fantasizing dominant women scenarios ever since, almost 50 years.”
“Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” He writes, “This is the first time I’ve ever revealed this except once in an awkward attempt in a confessional to a priest who told me the body was a temple of God and it was a sin to desecrate it by touching yourself.” Always a good call going to the priest for sexual—for comfort around sexuality. And Romey I’m not putting you down, I’m making fun of sometimes how awkward people without a lot of sexual experience are at advising others. He continues, “Of course I could not stop and I constantly berated myself. The shame and insecurities I had going to into adolescence were compounded when my mother left the marriage when I was fourteen. I was one confused dude. I became withdrawn, unhappy, depressed and absolutely ashamed of myself through the rest of my teens and most of my 20’s. I still struggle with insecurity. I have few (no) real friends and I’m struggling through a contentious divorce after 25+ years of marriage. I do feel a great relief though almost like a burden has lifted when I filed to end the marriage. I don’t have to meet someone else’s expectations now. I feel I can finally look at myself, most days anyway, and see myself and not be ashamed.”
“Any comments to make the podcast better?” He writes, “Thank you. I’m not sure I believe in a God anymore, but your podcasts are painfully truthful, honest and humorous. What I so badly needed to hear at this late stage of my life. It is so incredible to listen to people who are so self-revealing. It really is what gave me the confidence to say what I did in the survey. That and the fact that it is anonymous.” Well Romey, I was, you know—there’s a couple of reasons why I wanted to read that, first is I think our society kind of doesn’t want to acknowledge that people over 60 have a sexual life, and, uh, I want this podcast to reflect the experiences of as many people as possible. I’m not always able to get the guests that I would want in terms of hitting that broad swath of maladies and age ranges and all that kind of stuff. The other reason I wanted to read that is cuz I just had this overwhelming desire to jump into my computer screen and just give you a hug, just hold you and say, “Man, you are ok. You are ok. It’s ok that you put on a bra and you masturbate. It’s ok that you have a desire to have an older woman in her underwear dominate you. That’s all ok and you shouldn’t be ashamed of that. And it sounds like you’re starting to make some headway.” I’m sending some love your way.
What do I have next? Oh, I love this. This is an email I got from a listener named Megan. And she writes, “Dear Paul, I downloaded a few episodes of your podcast expecting something mildly entertaining to help me through my mundane office job. I was expecting something that poked a little bit more fun at mental illness, but the first episode I listened to was Dr. Zucker part one.” Wow. Definitely not a light one to start with. She writes, “I found myself moved to tears as you read the listener letter about her struggles with postpartum depression. I had a child when I was 16 with my boyfriend who has four years older than me, that, surprise, my family did not approve of. After many months of arguing, I moved in with my boyfriend a few months before my son was born. I’ve never acknowledged the postpartum that I experienced after my son was born. I felt little to no attachment to him. It was like a stranger was laid on my chest after he came out. I was angry and exhausted and scared by how much I did not love him. I had little to no support from my mostly estranged family and on top of everything else, I began to be physically abused by my son’s father. It was one of the darkest periods of my life. I eventually was rescued from a life threatening beating by my sister who literally took the beating for me. Twelve years has passed since all of this and I have struggled with anxiety since. More specifically, purely obsessional OCD. This disorder fills me with irrational, intrusive thoughts of hurting myself and others. I struggle constantly with these dark thoughts. I have an amazing cognitive behavioral therapist that has been helping me through this difficult period of recognizing I have a problem and need help. Being a new listener, I was wondering if you had discussed purely obsessional OCD and, if so, is there an episode about this subject matter? I love this show and it has made me write little notes down for myself to remember to bring up in therapy. It’s caused me to consider different possibilities about my behavior that I feel endless shame about. My story does have a happy ending. I eventually learned to love my son who is an amazingly gentle and wonderful almost teenager. I recently celebrated my first wedding anniversary with a man who accepts me and all my “broken pieces.” I am currently working towards a degree in midwifery to help other women through the most extreme change we will ever experience. With time and more therapy I hope to get my OCD under control and heal a lot of old, very deep wounds. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing what you do. To me you have made a difference. Megan.”
Well I wrote her back and I said how much I enjoyed her email, how sorry I was to hear she’d been through what she’d been through. I recommended a couple of episodes. I think Kerri Kenney-Silver talked about OCD, Simone talked about OCD, Chris Hardwick, I think there are a couple of others. But anybody looking—and obviously this episode with Chris Gore was the other reason I wanted to read this email. But when I wrote her back, I said, “Can I read your email or at least add it to the list of possibly read on air, and, if so, how would you like me to refer to you?” And she said, and I’m gonna read what she wrote, where the hell is it, “Feel free to share my email on the air if you like and you can use my real name. I’m starting to use the mantra of ‘it’s not my fault.’ I’ll definitely work my way back through the whole archive of episodes.” And so this was from Megan Fuller and her email address is lilmsscatterbrain@msn.com. So anybody else that has obsessional OCD, shot her an email, again her name is Megan Fuller and her email address is lilmsscatterbrain@msn.com. And Megan I just—God bless you for being one of the people to step out of the dark and be unafraid to talk about something that is so painful and has so much shame around it. That just make my fucking day when I read that. God bless ya.
All right, I’m gonna take it out with—this is from the Happy Moments survey. This was filled out by a guy who calls himself Slothrop. He was raised in a stable and safe environment. He’s straight, he’s in his 20’s and one of his happy moments he writes is, “The first week of college is a unique time for everyone in that all or most students are back to square one. There are no cliques, no old buddies, and no conceptions about what should be happening. To some people who liked high school this might be frightening, but to a guy who was never particularly popular or happy at high school, it was a great opportunity. Of course it was still scary as shit. I was a bit of a nerd but was not terribly marginalized in high school. I had a small group of friends and hung out on the fringe of a lot of other types of cliques: jocks, skaters, burnouts, etc. but I was never happy with my situation and hold no halcyon feelings about my time there. Moving into my dorm, setting up my stuff, and having to say to myself, ‘Well, here we are,’ was going in headfirst to the extreme. And also very intimidating since I’m a shy guy. I was lucky though, I got put in what would turn out the be the party dorm. My floor was loud and rowdy from the get go with music blaring, televisions pumping and guys hooting and hollering all over the place. I decided to join the fun. I hooked up my speakers to the computer and played electronic music full blast, just to enjoy myself and my new home for the next nine months. I had started DJ’ing when I was 16 and got called ‘idiot’ or ‘gay’ a lot because all electronic music was for ‘fags’ in the early 2000’s. I guess now people are changing their tune with SkillRex (sp?) but never mind. I put the music on that was a little shameful to me to rebuff other opinions and to exclude false confidence in my tastes. I opened the door as an open challenge to others to come at me. I was used to debating the validity of my music. Within a few minutes a guy walking by looking in my door, stopped, knocked and stepped in. He was a normal college dude wearing cargos, T, sports team cap and flip-flops. Sure enough he says, ‘Hey man, is that Boards of Canada (a group)?’ ‘Yeah,’ I replied. ‘Those guys are pretty awesome. My buddy’s got some Coke and pizza in my room if you want to check it out.’ I followed, wary, because this is the kind of guy who would make fun of my tastes in high school. Upon entering his room, I was greeted to the sight of several pizzas, guys drinking Cokes, playing PlayStation 2 and listening to the same kind of stuff I used to listen to. It seemed like a different dimension to my high school. ‘Grab a slice, man, we’re playing Grand Theft Auto.’ And that was that. I had met my first buddy at college. As an awkward guy, this experience really informed my opinion and shaped me as a young adult. High school was done and things were changing fast. I was able to consider that I am worth talking to and to not have to worry about guarding myself so much. I took one chance, opened myself and met with a group of guys I have keep in contact with for the following decade. Sometimes I begin to wonder about what would have happened if I hadn’t left my room. What if I had played the shy guy and not taken a chance, despite how nervous I was? Then I tell myself to stop because this is what reality is, opening yourself up, sitting with new buddies, playing GTA on a PlayStation and looking through the dusty sunbeams out into the sky and knowing for once that you belong.”
That was beautiful. And there’s a plane out in the sky doing a circle to celebrate that. Well, thank you guys so much for listening and being a part of the show and emailing and taking the surveys, and being monthly donors and all the other great ways that you help support the show. And if you’re out there and you’re stuck, don’t give up. There are so many of us like you. And it can get better. You just gotta reach out and ask for help, get out of your comfort zone. So just remember, you’re not alone. And thanks for listening.
No Comments