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Episode Transcript:
Paul: Welcome to episode 70 with my guest, uh, Lily, she’s a listener. My name is Paul Gilmartin and this is The Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads. From medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. Feelings of dissatisfaction, disconnection, inadequacy, and that vague, sinking feeling that the world is passing us by. You give us an hour, we’ll give you a hot ladle of awkward and icky. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional, mental counseling, it’s not a doctor’s office. It’s more like a waiting room that hopefully doesn’t suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com. It’s also the Twitter name you can follow me at.
Uh go to the website, sign up for the newsletter. Uh, you can support the show with a donation there. You can buy a t-shirt. Um, there’s a forum that a lot of people have been getting involved in – a great way to find out how not alone you really are. Join that forum. And there’s four different surveys that you can take. And you can see how other people responded to the surveys, and that’s pretty fascinating. Two new surveys: one is Struggle in a Sentence and people try to basically encapsulate whatever it is they’re struggling with in a sentence so that people who don’t struggle with that can hopefully understand what it feels like to live with that; and the other survey is called I Shouldn’t Feel This, because I think a lot of times we feel something about an event or person or a thing that is different from what we think we should be feeling and we beat ourselves up about it. And this survey reveals that a lot of people feel the same way about family, about—y-you name it, about all kinds of different things.
And I want to read, uh, one survey in particular, from the I Shouldn’t Feel This. This one really kind of, uh, kind of struck a chord in me, um, and the woman’s name, I believe, is—what did she call herself—Oh God, I keep misplacing things. I’ve been incredibly disorganized, I apologize. Uh, yes, this is from the I Shouldn’t Feel This survey, she calls herself SRN. And, uh, she’s straight, she’s in her 30’s, and uh, some interesting questions I-I-I have on this, um, survey. Some might say it’s a little dark right out of the gate but the first question is, “What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?” And she writes, um, “She was an inspiration. Kind and humble. She—“ And then she writes, “I can’t finish this.”
Next question, “How does writing that make you feel?” She writes, “Uncomfortable and sad that I could not put more down.”
Um, next question, “If you had a time machine, how would you use it? You can’t change history, you can only observe it.” She writes, “I would go to the future five years. I want to know if it ever gets any better than this, if my life reflects the same pain that I am in, it would be unbearable.”
Um, and then, um, “Please write as many of these as you feel: I’m supposed to feel [blank] about [blank], but I don’t, I feel [blank].” Sounds like we’re playing fucking Mad Libs! Um, she writes, “I’m supposed to feel motherly about my daughter but I don’t, I feel like this role as a mother is not for me. It’s too much pressure. I never wanted children, but I thought having one was the right thing to do at my age. I have now crossed into a new dimension and the wormhole has shut behind me. I’m supposed to feel gratitude for being alive, but I don’t, I feel like a disappointment. I’m supposed to feel prideful about my black skin, but I don’t, I feel like I’m always being judged. I feel like I’m used as a yardstick for comparison for my race while working any job. I’m supposed to feel sexual about my body, but I don’t, I feel ashamed about my naked body as I put on more weight.”
Uh, “How does writing that out make you feel?” She writes, “I feel weepy, like I’m on the verge of crying. I’ve never written or said aloud those feelings.”
Uh, “Do you think you’re abnormal for feeling what you do?” She writes, “I do not think it is abnormal but it is shameful.”
Um, “Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself?” She writes, “Yes!!!!! I know people like me do exist, but I have never met or talked to anyone about it.” Well, uh, I can tell you, SRN, as you call yourself, uh, I get so many surveys filled out from people, especially the Shame and Secrets survey, so many parents confide that they feel overwhelmed. They feel like frauds as parents and they feel like they are as connected to their child as they should. So, um, I don’t think you’re a freak at all. It sounds to me like maybe you’re experiencing some depression. Um, I don’t know. I’m not a therapist, not a doctor, but I did tour the state of Ohio in the early ‘90’s and, uh, I did some pretty hot stuff about the way that guys pee, and it made a lot of people laugh and I gotta think that gives me the, uh, the authority to weigh in on complicated issues like that.
Uh, let me just throw a couple of things at you. People always talk about depression being a bad thing and I thought it’s high time we look at the positives of depression so I’m just going to send you out with a couple of these. Good thing about depression: you get your money’s worth out of your mattress. Good thing about depression: you have a modest phone bill. Good thing about depression: horrible events don’t catch you off guard. And another good thing about depression: the movie Seven feels relaxing. I wish, I honestly wish I was kidding and that one wasn’t real.
[SHOW INTRO]
Paul: I’m here with Lily who, uh, is a listener that, uh, h-how did we—did you send an email to me?
Lily: I did. I think I first sent an email just thanking you for the podcast and letting you know everything I got out about it and then I—you wrote back to me.
Paul: I-I think I remember one thing in particular stuck out. One of the fears that I had was that I was gonna, uh, uh, fart in one of my support groups a-and then I would be too ashamed to ever show up, uh, again, a-and I think you—was it that you had the fear of that happening, was it yoga class or something?
Lily: No, I was at, um, a workshop and it was a week long and we did experiential therapy and so we had to get up and people would act out their really big, big life issues, um, and I would play a role, that—I was picked one day to play the mom in everybody’s, uh drama and I would stand up in front of people in these yoga pants that I wore like every day, and my butt would be in front of everybody. And I just had this fear that I was gonna fart and ruin this huge, like, therapeutic moment and then everybody would be like, “You’re disgusting, and you’re so weird.” And, um, that’s just not like me to ever admit it, but I did one day, like, over our bonfire and then I just ended up telling the whole group and I was, like, laughing so hard that I couldn’t get it out. And then everybody started teasing me about—that I was this farter, and it was really, I feel like, the start of me kind of like letting go. Letting down my guard and being more fun and open.
Paul: Can you talk about what that feels like?
Lily: It feels free. I feel happy. I feel like life is OK and I feel like I didn’t feel like that for a long time, maybe until just May, mid-May and even towards the end. It’s ok, I guess less pressure to be perfect, to look perfect, to be OK with my body. And I guess I just feel happy to be walking or riding my bike or being with my husband and my daughter and just, like, just comfortable in my own skin.
Paul: I-i-it—would it be fair to say you don’t feel like you have that cloud looming over that you’re gonna make a mistake and you’re either not gonna get what you want or you’re gonna lose what you have?
Lily: Yes. Yeah, I feel like everybody is gonna accept me and love me even more. I feel like I can even look people in the eye on a walk more, you know, before I felt, like, just so closed off and so afraid of, I don’t know what I was—
Paul: I know exactly what you mean.
Lily: I just didn’t even want to make eye contact. I was like, “Ugh. I’m gonna cross the street.” You know, because we have a lot of dog walkers and … And now I just like, I hope that people look up at me when I’m walking and they smile at me, you know, and I’m not ashamed that I’m not wearing makeup or whatever, whatever it is.
Paul: That intimacy—cuz that’s what it is to me, i-is intimacy—is—I was talking with a friend on the phone on the way over here, I think we have a genetic need f-for intimacy. Um, intimacy w-with friends, intimacy with, you know, a-a spouse or a partner, intimacy with ourselves, and in the absence of that, cuz many of us grow up not knowing what it is, not knowing how to get it, how to ask for it, not knowing we need it, in the absence of that, I think then we compensate by engaging in other behaviors, then the primary one, I-I think is that we try to impress people, because we think that how we—we’re gonna get them close to us, is if we can be impressive enough, people will surround us and then we’ll be ok. But inherent in that flawed kind of myth is that we have to keep being impressive.
Lily: Yeah, and I think I really identify with that and I guess like I felt like it was impressive to be thin and I feel like that kind of obsession with all of that just destroyed me and I felt like I couldn’t be loving to myself or even just intimate at all with my husband or my daughter. Like, I just would cringe, like, if they would even try to give me a hug or certain things cuz I just—
Paul: Really?
Lily: Yeah, I mean that was one thing when I went to that workshop that I went to was, um, and just like because I hated my body. You know, and I just, um—but, yeah, to be intimate like just relax. I felt like I couldn’t relax to lie down and read a story. I didn’t want my daughter to touch me, I didn’t want her to hug me because I needed to, like, I don’t know, be so vigilant and make my stupid breakfast and my lunch and just like be in this horrible shell. I don’t know.
Paul: Get on with the regimented idea of success that we have in our, in our brains. If I can do this, and this, and this, then I will be able to relax because I will be successful and I will be worthy. As opposed to just accepting that we’re worthy just as we are. I woke up the other morning at noon—at the crack of noon—and of course the first thing is my head is, you know, you slept too late, you’re a lazy piece of shit, your life is passing you by. That’s, you know, that’s my alarm clock.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: My Groundhog Day Sonny & Cher song, i-is that. And I recognized it for the lie that it was and, and I just looked around the room at th-the wall that needs painting, at the dresser that needs dusting, at all the scraps of paper that need organizing, uh, at the blanket that needs washing, and, and I said, “It’s all ok just as it is. This dirty, disorganized room – it’s ok. It’s a part of my life. It doesn’t mean I’m bad, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong, it doesn’t mean I’m behind schedule. I accept it exactly as it is.” And I had the greatest day just starting from that centering point of just – it’s all ok, this is my life, i-it doesn’t have to be perfect, it’s perfect in its imperfection.
Lily: Yeah. I think being perfect in its imperfection is what I’m really embracing now.
Paul: I’m shocked that the—just the single workshop has had that profound an affect on you. It sounds like you must have been on the verge of really seeking something.
Lily: Yes. I mean, I’d been in therapy for a while and then I went back in January and I started to deal with—the main thing was, uh, I had like—or I have had—an issue with sex. And it was just ruining my relationship with my husband, and so it was just very uncomfortable for me to even imagine having to talk about sex but I went to somebody that, um, specializes in sex therapy and actually an intern, because I know you talked about it before on like low cost, I wanted somebody who would be willing to stick it out, be able to afford it. So I had been doing that and letting down some of my coping mechanisms that weren’t working for me, and I think without those, it caused me to have really, really bad panic attacks sometimes because it was scary to live my life—
Paul: Panic attacks around sexual issues or just in general?
Lily: Just in general. You know, I stopped forcing myself to have sex, um ….
Paul: Did you get any pleasure out of sex, or was it just kind of …?
Lily: Actually, I did. I mean, which is weird, in a—like I was able to like have an orgasm, but I think that was just my body because I was not fine—it was horrible for me.
Paul: Can you describe …?
Lily: Um, I would think about like, “Ok, I have to have sex because it’s important for my husband and important for our relationship.” And I would just not want to do it, and then I would just do it. And towards the end of me just forcing myself to do it, I would become frozen. And I would lie there like shaking and, um, almost having a panic attack. And sometimes I would cry and then sometimes if he was not, like, finishing fast enough, I would just be like, “Aaack! Get off of me!” And then, um, you know, often I would just like, lie there and cry and I couldn’t move. I would tense up. You know, just the biggest thing, not like this tense little ball, but especially during sex, I would just be like rigid and if he ever touched my breasts or something—get off! That’s—I know I’m weird.
Paul: No, no no. I-I had for many years, um, the pressure to have sex w-with, uh, um, my wife was—once we would be having sex, it would be enjoyable, but the—there was like this wall, uh, of initiating sex that I just—i-i-it was difficult. It was difficult to do, and I, and I can’t explain what it was. Because I knew there would be an orgasm and it would pleasurable, but there was a, there was just something, like this invisible wall that I-I didn’t want to do it, I just wanted to shut down. I just wanted, um, I would like, rather masturbate, you know, than to deal with somebody else, and those issues are a little clearer now that I’ve worked through a-a lot of that stuff, but I understand. I totally get that. And it’s—then it fills you with shame. You feel like a-a-a loser, you feel like you’re not a good spouse, you know, all that stuff.
Lily: Yeah, yeah I think it’s hard to—when your married and you’re not in those initial stages of, like, you’re going out, and you’re having fun, and then you’re making out—
Paul: You’re ripping each other’s clothes off, right?
Lily: Yeah, and not it’s like what is the day-to-day life of you’re home, you’re at work, and you’re sitting on the couch. Especially us, after we put Mary to sleep and we’re watching TV, like, it’s that initiation of, like, do we make it—we need to start making out and having sex, but it’s hard when you’ve been together, yeah.
Paul: Especially when you’ve been with somebody for a while and that relationship—for some reason I have this image in my mind of a car with a ton of dents. Because I think most long-term relationships—it’s a dented car. We have this fantasy that a relationship is gonna be show room clean and that relationship doesn’t have any dents. It’s easy to be intimate with somebody before there’s dents in the car. But when there’s some big dents in the car, intimacy can become really difficult, because you’re maybe still holding on to that resentment of – they do this thing that drives me fucking crazy. Or I’ve got this secret that I don’t want them to know because I’m afraid I’m gonna be judged by. And that makes that intimacy difficult I think because there’s this feeling of a little bit of falseness.
Lily: Yes. I didn’t mean to cut you off – the falseness is exactly where my husband and I were.
Paul: Talk about that.
Lily: We had issues—we were separated, actually, for a year and a half, but before that he was an alcoholic and was not sober and towards the—right before our separation, we had our daughter, and I just—we were in a really bad place. And when I asked him, like, “How can I help?” Because he was in such a bad place, he said, “If we have sex every day. We need to have sex more.” And I was like, “I feel like we should start going on some dates.” And he’s like, “No. I’ll feel more open with you.” Because I just feel like he was closed off because we were not connecting. And so I said, “Ok.” So we had sex every day for a week and it was—that was the start of me, like, I feel like, betraying my body, and it was horrible. And then we were separated. But after being separated for a year and a half, and dating and he did get sober and he kind of lived his life for himself, and I realized he is the man I want to be with, we got back together but we just kind of picked up our sex life where we left off, but there was this falseness of he didn’t want to say things and I was not over hating him for drinking and, and then making me have sex and thinking that would fix everything. Um, and it was just—we were in this pattern. But I think—he’s finally started opening up to me—but I think because of my anxiety and depression, and—he has held a lot back, and by him holding back, I don’t feel like I can trust him. I don’t feel connected to him. I—but, you know, finally, just even, like, in the past two weeks he’s been open and told me that sometimes he’s resented me, he’s wanted me to be more affectionate, wanted me to be more intimate. And so I would see this, like, look in his eye but he wasn’t saying it, and I was just always talking about my feelings and … But yeah, there was this falseness and I feel like finally we’re both not being false.
Paul: A-and that to me is where the best sex comes from, is that place of, uh, talking about the dents in that, in that car, and, and kind of having a pride about the fact that this car’s still running. And that’s normal. It’s normal for a car to have a wobbly wheel, and be full of dents, because we’re human beings and we can be selfish and irritable and all that other stuff that can be difficult for the other person to live with, um, but, you know, love is painted in our society, and especially in the media, in such a cartoony way, you know, the montage of Julia Roberts trying on hats. You know, we’re never gonna be in that relationship, uh, and, yet we think, we that there’s this ideal that we need t-t-to reach and it doesn’t really exist. I think the best shot we can have is to just talk about the dents and say how does that dent make us feel and to try to have compassion for however the other person looks at those dents. That’s, that’s the most important thing – is to give the compassion. If we want to get any compassion back, we have to learn t-to start giving it and to be accepting of that person’s flaws.
Lily: Yeah, yeah, and I completely agree. And I feel like for my husband to start to open up and to admit some of his flaws, or just to be vulnerable, I would have never imagined, like, how attractive that is to me. But I think after listening to your podcast and then going to this workshop where I saw all of these people, you know, and hearing these people being so honest, and I do feel connected to them. And it doesn’t matter what they look like, what their bodies are like. Like, I just love who they are and I’m so happy that my husband is starting to, like, we’re starting to have that connection again. Yeah….
Paul: And it’s so awesome that you’re discovering while your child is, is little.
Lily: Yeah, yeah
Paul: And she can have a good template now to see what true intimacy looks like.
Lily: Yeah. I think it’s hard t-to make your relationship important though. For me, that’s what I’m learning, I think I also shut myself off sexually because I feel like a mom should not really have sex, so that is still something that—
Paul: You’re not renting the right DVDs.
Lily: (laughs) Oh yeah, I’m not. I mean, but I guess it’s like this ideal of a perfect mom, you know, and I think breaking—like, embracing my imperfections is what’s helping me the most because I think, yeah, thinking about being the perfect mom and what that would look like doesn’t involve making time for my husband or wanting to have sex.
Paul: Right. It—what’s you sex drive like now? Is it, is it, is there a sex drive? Is it kind of like you’re open to sex, or is it something that you seek out?
Lily: Um, my—I don’t—it’s hard to say because I don’t really know if I want to have sex because I have a sex drive or because I want to have that connection with my husband and I want to make him happy, or I want to get pregnant. Um, so I feel like I don’t, I mean, honestly, I don’t really feel like I have a strong sex drive right now. You know, it’s not at all like it was, like, me cringing. I mean, I’m into it more, but …
Paul: Right. But, what—during the time when you were, like, the cringing and stuff like that, did you—when you were by yourself, would you, would you masturbate?
Lily: No, not really.
Paul: So there was really zero sex drive.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: Because for me, when I was, like, had all these—when I was not able to talk about all the dents in the car with my wife, I think that was the wall t-to having sex because there was a falseness there th-that—but that didn’t keep me from wanting to masturbate, because I still had a sex drive. I just wanted the safety of not feeling the falseness, because when you’re masturbating, it doesn’t feel false, you know what I mean?
Lily: No, you’re true with yourself, yeah.
Paul: You’re true with yourself, you know what you like, y-you’re not gonna upset yourself with some surprise, ‘How dare you!’ You know?
Lily: There’s no fear of any bad interaction.
Paul: You’re gonna do something imperfectly, you’re not gonna be a good lover, you know. You know you.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: Um, so that’s why I asked that, that question. Um, because I think they’re—because if there’s no interest in sex at all, I think that’s different than you feel like there’s a-a wall between you and partner i-in terms of intimacy. I-i-it—do you have a history of, um, sexual abuse or, or boundaries being crossed, because …. ?
Lily: Yeah, I do. Um …
Paul: Are you comfortable talking about it?
Lily: Yeah, I am. And I think that, kind of, that it where I had to go in therapy. I also think, um, there was some hormone imbalance that made me probably have a lack of sex drive. Um, because I stopped getting my period, because I don’t know if—
Paul: When?
Lily: About—over a year ago, and so actually—this is so weird saying this on a podcast—
Paul: Can I ask you how old you are?
Lily: I’m thirty, and so I just got my period for the first time in May, after that workshop and, um, for, like, over a year I’ve not taking any, like, fertility drugs, I just, I …
Paul: How long had you not had your period for?
Lily: A year. Um …
Paul: And now it just started again.
Lily: Yeah, but it’s doing a lot of work on myself, so I have gained weight. And I don’t think before I was too thin, but I was thin and I was, um …
Paul: Was there an eating disorder?
Lily: Yeah. I had an eating disorder, I was assaulted. I guess I say “assaulted” because I wasn’t raped. So I really like your survey and how on the podcast you talk about, like, that gray area, because I just felt confused and not wanting to own what happened to me, because so many people were raped and had all this stuff, and when I was 14, this guy just made me give him a blowjob. But it really messed me up and I just, through work, kind of realized I have thoughts, like, if I was thinner and prettier, then, like, he wouldn’t have made me do that, he wouldn’t have taken me away. Um ..
Paul: What do you mean, taken you away?
Lily: Well, we were on this, like, little resort in Florida. It was called Captiva, but it was a really bad trip, so we called it Craptiva, and (laughs) …
Paul: Is it Captiva Island?
Lily: Yes.
Paul: Yes, yes I’ve heard of that!
Lily: I mean it was just rainy, so that it was why it was just a bad experience for my family, and for me because I had this horrible …
Paul: How old was the guy?
Lily: Uh, they were college. He was like 19—he was like older, I think, actually. He was—there was like a bunch of guys and I had this boyfriend for the night, Steve, he was like 19. Then there was this older guy, Frank I think he was 21, or, something like that. And so I was hanging out with Steve more—
Paul: Were there any other women there?
Lily: There was. There was a friend from my high school and she came with me, but she wasn’t really a friend, she just happened to be on that island too, so I was like, well, we should hang out. Because I liked to hang out with, uh, guys and get that attention, but I didn’t want to go by myself. So I—
Paul: Did your parents know this was going on, you were hanging out with these guys?
Lily: No, they just knew Laura and I were walking around, uh, the resort.
Paul: Ok.
Lily: And so we ran into these guys and think we were like drinking a beer, and Steve had his arm around me, he was like, “Oh, you’re so pretty, will you be my girlfriend for the night?” And I was like, “Oh, sure!” And then—
Paul: Did he know you were 14?
Lily: I think we probably lied about our ages.
Paul: Ok.
Lily: I’m sure—I always lied. I mean, I’m sure it was at least 17 or something that I said to him. I remember exactly what I was wearing because I feel like I was not—I was wearing Dickie brown pants and a Snapple sweatshirt that was blue. So ….
Paul: It’s not like you were dressed for, ‘Hey come on!’
Lily: No, and after this happened I definitely dressed more provocatively going out but this time I-I was not. And I was, I mean, like a little chubby or just normal, but, um, and I don’t think I was probably wearing makeup, but so then Frank took me off, um, I don’t—it’s almost like a little sandy path and under this hut, and, and so I think I did – I felt flattered by him taking me there. And I don’t really know, like, exactly how it happened, but I don’t even think we were making out or anything like that. He was like, “This is what you should do.” And was like, “No!” And I just really remember him pushing my head down. And I’d never given anybody a blowjob, and, but I felt like, “Well, I have gotten myself in this situation, I can do this.”
Paul: That makes me so sad.
Lily: Yeah, and I remember I saw these, like, roller bladers that were my age that I saw at the resort with my parents, and when Frank was, like, walking me—it was before or after—but, like walking me to the hut, I had this bad feeling, and I wanted to be like, “Save me!”
Paul: Awww…
Lily: Like, reach out to these—I mean, with my therapist, we’ve walked through this scenario, like how I would actually have gone—done that, which was helpful. But I just remember seeing them and being like, “Why aren’t I with people my age? What? Help!” And I just felt mad at myself because it was my need for attention. So I just felt like, “I have done this. And this is where I have to go down my path.” And so he made me—I just remember him holding my head down and I couldn’t move—I mean it wasn’t, like, horrible and it wasn’t, like, you know, it’s just like that weird gray area, where, like, I did not want that. I was unsure and you made me do that. I then when I was done he just like pushed me over into the sand, and then it was like, this thing is over. And he was like, “Don’t tell anybody.” Um, and so, then we just walked—
Paul: I-I don’t see how that is any different than rape in terms of your desire—boundaries being violated and your opinion, your safety, um, being completely ignored. I-I don’t.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: Anybody listening to you tell that story just wants to go hug that fourteen-year-old and say, “You didn’t deserve that. That was not your fault”. Umm …
Lily: Yeah, and I can see that now, even when I say this now to you, though, I have this fear that I am so stupid, that I’m like, I am so am blowing this out of proportion but then the other side of me knows—
Paul: Why are you stupid?
Lily: I guess that I even got myself into that situation, that I let him—
Paul: You were fourteen, you were fourteen years old and these guys were 19, 20 and 21. They know what they’re doing. They could spot your vulnerability, your naiveté, they—and they used that.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: A fourteen-year-old is no match for a-a-a twenty-year-old, especially, I think when it’s between, uh, a guy and a girl, because I think a lot of girls a-are raised to be polite and people pleasers, and men especially at that age, are aggressive and, you know, what’s the word that I’m looking for, um, objectifying.
Lily: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: Especially when they’re in a group.
Lily: Yeah, and you get—it was so weird. I like blocked weird things out of that but there was some, like videoing. Everybody had a video camera, but not when I was doing that with Frank, but like when I was—I think I was, like, making out with Steve and they were filming. And it was this, this objectifying, but like I was ok with it.
Paul: It was attention.
Lily: Yeah. It was, it was—it felt good to get that attention. I still remember from like 14 to 19, um, I feel like that was what fueled my entire existence, was, like, that attention from guys. Like, I remember feeling like, “I’m never gonna find a friend that likes to stay out as late me cuz I love to stay out late and just get attention from guys.” And I never wanted it to end.
Paul: And it—to any kids that are listening to this, predators are going to use your desire for attention. That is their doorway into getting what they want. And that’s one of the sad facts of, of life, and just another thing on the list of why parents should spend quality time with their kids. Because if you give them that attention, their thirst for being with an inappropriate age group at 2 in the morning, um, is not gonna be as strong.
Lily: Yeah. But I think for me if I was more, like, loving to myself, because, even though I had that attention, it was never in the form of—until I met my husband, I mean I had some boyfriends but it was never what I was looking for, it wasn’t fulfilling, it was brief and fleeting. And I knew that I had to give them a blowjob or have sex, or be this person and then I felt horrible the next day because I was just this slut, and then I needed to get more attention. And it was like a never-ending cycle.
Paul: I can’t imagine how many women listening to this completely relate to what, to what you just said.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: And h-how many girls.
Lily: I know, and I felt so alone in, uh—when I was slutty or sexually promiscuous, I gave a lot of blowjobs after that assault. Um, because I—
Paul: Why do you think it was that particular act th-that was so frequent?
Lily: Well, I didn’t really starting having sex, yet. I hadn’t ever had sex.
Paul: Oh I see, so that was your—that was as far as you were willing to go.
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: So that’s …
Lily: So I did. I then I became good at giving blowjobs, so that, um, a group of guys that I’d be hanging out with, it would, like, get around. And it did, I felt powerful, I felt like people really liked me, and then when I did start having sex, um …
Paul: Would you, would you give blowjobs to more than one guy in the group?
Lily: Sometimes, yeah.
Paul: And were these, were these, like classmates of yours? Were these older guys? Wh-who would they be?
Lily: Um, most of them—well, l lived in New York for a little bit. I grew up here in California, in Santa Monica, but then for my freshman and sophomore year, I lived in New York City. And, um, I would go to, like, pool halls and drink and hang out, but most of the guys I did hang out with weren’t too much older than me. I mean, I definitely had a boyfriend that was in his 20’s, I think he was a bartender. But then the guys—
Paul: Where were your parents i-in all this?
Lily: My parents are wonderful and they are loving but they, they made their relationship a priority, um, so they would have their own dinners, they would go out, they would um—I would babysit my little brother a lot, then get money and then I would go out. And when we lived in New York, they were—we didn’t—I was just allowed to go out, like, they—I kind of had a curfew sometimes but not really. I would stay out and then I would climb out of a—the roof that we had and go over, like, roof hop to my neighbors’. So, I’d just stay out till five and six in the morning.
Paul: There’s so many questions that I-I wanna, I-I-I wanna ask you and I’m not really sure where, where to begin. Um …
Lily: Well, one thing that I’m thinking that, um, before—were you having a question that you wanted to remind me?
Paul: No, let’s, let’s have you drive, drive this.
Lily: Well, I guess I felt so much shame around, like, hooking up with guys and doing this and then when I did start sleeping with them, I was so convinced um, that I was gonna get AIDS. Because a lot of times I did use a condom, but sometimes I wouldn’t, it wouldn’t really be—
Paul: H-how old were you at this point?
Lily: I started having sex when I was 15. And then I didn’t have, uh, like a lot of sex, there were guys that I would have sex with, but I did have a lot of sex, like my freshman year in college, but, like my senior year—in the summers we would still go to Massachusetts, we still do, and I would have sex with like, just like guys my age there that I knew, like my cousins’ friends. I would—I never told people. Like people—my friends knew, but it was never like this open thing, and I just felt different and slutty and horrible and shameful and I would go get AIDS tests by myself and get the results and just convince myself, like, that I have AIDS, and sit in the parking lot and cry. And when I think back to that, I’m so sad for myself. But, like I’d never heard of anybody who ever did that. I just felt weird, but now I feel like more compassion to my sad self then.
Paul: That’s good that you, that you feel that compassion, cuz listening to you tell that, it’s sad, it’s sad that, that—to think that that girl just wanted love, she just wanted attention, and she had thought she had to do—sell this part of her soul to get something that’s really human i-in every person. And, you know that genetic need for intimacy.
Lily: I know, yeah.
Paul: That’s what you really wanted, was to be understood and accepted for who you are and to get that you had to do something that did the reverse of that, which made you totally uncomfortable with who you were no matter where you were and what you were doing.
Lily: Yeah. And I remember what you were saying, one of your—not like fantasies, but like you wished that an older girl would come to you to on the playground and give you a hug and you would cry in her arms. And I—when you said that, I was on a walk and I just was like, hysterically crying because that whole time I just wanted a guy, not interested in a boyfriend, but just to put his arm around me, and just, like, he could give me a hug and we wouldn’t have to have sex, like I wouldn’t have to give him a blowjob, and just like I could cry. Like, I had never heard, I’d never even consciously let myself have that thought, you know, since I was that young, but I realize, like, that’s what I was wanting with my husband too, is just like, that intimacy.
Paul: That’s so beautiful that you, that you now know that’s what you crave and then that’s the most healthy, primal thing that our, that our soul needs and you deserve it, it’s ok to ask for it, and it’s ok to be upset or out of sorts if we’re not getting it.
Lily: Yeah, yeah. And I feel bad because I know that that is what my husband was wanting too and I did not give that to him because it was so tied to us having sex, and we weren’t communicating. He wasn’t communicating that that’s what we wanted, was intimacy. He, whether it was sex or not, I mean, he did ultimately want to have sex, but, you know, from the start of when it all went wrong when we had our daughter is he missed that. He missed me hugging him and being intimate and, and we didn’t have the communication tools for him to ask me. It’s a weird thing to say, “ I want a hug.” You know, “I want you to hold me,” without it being like, “Can we do it?” Without it being, “Can we have sex?” And so we’re just learning now, like, just like you said, that it is ok to ask and that need to be intimate on a non-sexual level is really important.
Paul: Yeah, to feel—t-to have somebody hear you hear your—to be able to share our darkness with somebody, your fear, your pain, your desire, all of that innermost stuff, to be able to lay that out there and to feel another person hear you, understand you, and look you in the eye and still love you just as much is so, it’s so amazing. It’s, it’s, um, but most of us don’t know—have never been in touch with that part of ourselves that knows it’s ok to ask for that, a-and to want that, and so we try to get it through other ways like being impressive or being thin enough or having money or being famous or doing all this other stuff, when in reality the real path to letting all that stuff go is getting around a group of people that are safe and telling them the parts about yourself that you want to hide, that you think are—is gonna make you unimpressive. It’s 180 degrees the other way, which is why our society is so fucked up, is our brains are wired, either through, you know, for one reason or another, to send us this other direction, th-that makes us further and further away from other people.
Lily: Yeah. It’s scary too because that is fleeting, um, being impressive enough, being thin enough. It’s like, if that is that path that you’re on, for me, I mean, I never felt secure because it’s like this constant thing that you’re chasing. And I guess for me right now, being myself and having that groove and being open with my husband and my family and you and everybody, it doesn’t feel—it feels scary to do things differently, but it doesn’t feel scary because being authentic and being who I am isn’t gonna change, and so it’s not that same fear of, like, “I gotta keep doing this.”
Paul: It’s bedrock – there’s nothing to lose.
Lily: Yeah, so it’s like I’ll just be me. Like you said, you wake up and I have all these things, my house is—I can’t wash this blanket or dust, but embracing your imperfection, it’s, like, freeing.
Paul: It’s so freeing. And, uh, you know, the ego I think steps, steps in to try to compensate and the stuff that the ego wants can always be destroyed: being thin, being rich, um, being popular, all that other stuff, but, being understood, that, there’s no legs that you can cut out from underneath being understood, it’s like, you know, like if your show is popular on TV, you’ll feel a little bit of safety for a little bit, but then your brain will go, “Oh God, but now all the sudden that show is outdated.” And all of the sudden the legs are cut out from underneath it, but when you’re around a group of people and you tell them what your fears are and you laugh about it and you hug, there is no—it’s like a ball bearing, there is nothing to chip away at. It’s just, it’s like an atom—th-there—it’s essential, it’s, it’s—that is the foundation o-o-of, I think, a beautiful emotional life, are those, those building blocks.
Lily: Yeah, I completely agree. Because it’s—you have nothing to lose, and it even makes you closer, the more fears you admit, or the more imperfections, you know.
Paul: And you can laugh about it. There’s nothing like laughing about how fucking nutty we are. Do you—is there anything from your childhood or anything that you want to talk about, any seminal moments?
Lily: Um, I don’t know, um, I mean there’s, there’s so many, but they’re all kind of related to, you know, I guess that thin ideal, which to me I kind of glommed onto, that that would fix everything. And …
Paul: Did it ever?
Lily: No. I mean, I feel more comfortable and happier to be thin but no it did not fix everything.
Paul: It didn’t give you that release that it did when you talked about farting in your yoga pants in front of those people and you all laughed about it and you realized, “Oh my God, they accept me, even after I talked about that imperfect thing.”
Lily: Yeah and I didn’t—yeah. And I-I loved the people that joked with me about farting, um, and I, I guess a lot of it for me is wanting to please my parents, too and especially my dad, who I felt, um, was impatient and easily annoyed when I was younger. And I always wanted to be like one step ahead. And I think my family was because we didn’t want to upset him, um, so even right now, me living—and my, my dad has been retired for a years and my husband doesn’t even know him in that way, and still sometimes I get anxious and I-I think living for myself, even now as, like, a thirty-year-old woman, um, is just something new. Like, my parents are still gonna love me. I think for me I do worry, like my grandmother or my family or, like, everybody’s gonna feel sad for me that I’m not thin like I used to be. Because I was always praised for being so good, like, so controlled in my eating, you know, ever since I was 12.
Paul: And were you bulimic or anorexic?
Lily: I was bulimic when I—
Paul: So they didn’t know you were throwing up to achieve that.
Lily: No and I wasn’t even—when I was bulimic I was like average chubby. But, um, I was just thin when I controlled my eating. I-I got really thin just naturally by—when I was nursing my daughter and my marriage was falling apart.
Paul: Isn’t it funny how we’re at our thinnest when we’re at our most emotionally miserable?
Lily: Yes, yeah, it was um, I remember my dad—because I was 20 pounds thinner than I am now, like, I was so thin at one point I was like, “Maybe I have a tapeworm.” But I remember being like, “Your life sucks. But I’m really thin.” Um, and so I stayed thin for a while. You know, just, um, but just controlling what I ate dessert-wise or treats-wise. And it’s still hard for me now, I feel like I have, uh, flipped a switch in myself, just like the past two weeks and I feel like I’m this weird alien that’s on a new planet cuz I’m like, “Oh my God, there’s ice cream!” And I feel like out of control but not out of control because I’m not bingeing because I stopped being bulimic when I was around 19, and, um. I did start throwing up a little bit last year when I—I’m always on the search for the healthiest diet, so I started eating, like, paleo and primal where you—or like the ancestral health, where you eat like meats and vegetables and fish and I get—when I follow something I-I wanna do it perfectly so I got a little off track with that and I would like freak out if I had a bite of fruit cuz, and—or any, any candy or anything and then I found myself like making myself throw up over Thanksgiving, last Thanksgiving. Um, so it’s just it’s odd to me that an eating disorder will sneak up even when I felt like I was healthy.
Paul: Yeah. Uh, how did you find the workshop?
Lily: Um well—
Paul: Can you say the name of it?
Lily: Yeah, I went to Onsite Workshops and I went to the Living Centered program. I have nothing to do with program, although it’s like one of my favorite things in the entire world. I hope to go back. I think anybody that’s listening to the show, I mean, even if you don’t have any significant issues, would benefit. Um, I was doing work with my therapist, a-and I stopped forcing myself to have sex when I didn’t want to and I started bringing up the issues of assault, bringing up the issues with my family, bringing up, like, eating and body image and just finding different ways of coping. It was freaking me out. And I had been on, um, an antidepressant, I had been on Wellbutrin, but then I got off of it because I thought maybe it was the last thing that was holding me back from getting my period, because that’s what my acupuncturist said, so I felt good, I got off of it, and then I felt really bad, because I was bringing up all of these issues. And so, um, in March, my husband’s like, “You need to go back on the Wellbutrin.” And so I went back on, I thought I could be my own psychopharmacologist, and I—cuz I’d been up and down on medication—so I put myself back up way too fast.
Paul: I watch Grey’s Anatomy, I know what I’m doing.
Lily: Yeah. And I took way—you know you’re supposed to do it in little increments and I did it fast. And I think it was that, um, and—Wellbutrin is some sort of a stimulant, isn’t it?
Paul: It works on your dopamine, so it kind of, uh, helps with the vigor, bringing vigor back.
Lily: Yeah, so I had too much vigor when driving to work and it was the worst panic attack. I felt like I was gonna lose my mind. So I could—I had to pull off because I’d been having these weird sensations—like these normal sensations, like I could drive my car off the road, but I had this feeling like, “You should chop your hand off,” when I’d be chopping vegetables. (laughs) Like, what? You’re such a freak! Um, so like, it was, like these—
Paul: Intrusive, aggressive thoughts.
Lily: Yes. A-a-and I hadn’t felt scared of them before so, I just had this freak-out and my mom—I had to pull off the freeway and wait for my mom to be able to come and get me because my husband was bringing our daughter to school, and I just—I, like, lost it. But I think it was from the Wellbutrin and then I just was really in a really bad place. I was scared. I tried to stay on the Wellbutrin for three days just to wait it out and I felt like any little thing, like, my daughter would say—because sometimes I am easily irritated. Um, I’m getting better, but I was—I didn’t know what I was capable of doing and it was scary. I-I didn’t want to hurt her. I felt like I was gonna hurt myself, I was gonna hurt her, I was just like, “Ah!” And a lot of it was stemming around, I didn’t know how to eat because I’d been on this path of, like, fertility eating and so I was eating—making homemade broths and eating liver and not any sugar and I focused so much energy on this perfect, natural fertility diet and I still didn’t have my period, and I was fucking crazy, and I get so frustrated when I read a lot of books on nutrition, on like paleo and primal and they say, “If you eat this way, you’re not going to have depression. You’re not gonna have anxiety.” And I was like, losing my mind. So I would be like, “I need to eat more fat and less protein and ….,” and it just—
Paul: I know that feeling of just changing every variable for a week and seeing if that does anything and it’s so fucking draining.
Lily: Yes, and I just was like, I was losing my mind. And so I called, uh, my old therapist, who I loved so much, and I was like—actually, I saw my acupuncturist—that was where—she’s like, “I think you need to get some help. Maybe you need treatment, more than you’re getting in therapy.” So that’s when I called my old therapist and I said, “What do I do? Because it’s not like I’m an alcoholic, it’s not like I’m bulimic, I’m just fucking crazy, but a weird crazy, I don’t know what to do?” And so then she put me in touch with this guy, and he told me the first he would recommend is Onsite and the Living Centered program just works with your—anybody that feels like out of balance with their life and they’re having anxiety and depression, whether it’s from past traumas, and there was people there who had had past traumas and hated who they’d became—become—because they’d worked like, 80 hour weeks.
Paul: In Los Angeles? (sarcastically)
Lily: I mean, yeah, yeah, that was the one guy wh-who lived in Los Angeles. But it was like other people whose wives or husbands were alcoholics or they had co-dependency issues, or, um, so this was in Tennessee, the program actually. So there’s people from all over.
Paul: OK
Lily: But that one guy I was thinking about—because you didn’t talk about your professions actually, until the last day you could share—but, um, I think that program really was—came at the perfect time, and I’m not sure I would be at this place where I’m at now without it.
Paul: What tools did that program—because for me it’s all about getting tools that help us deal with our feelings when they’re overwhelming—what tools did you walk away from that workshop with, if any?
Lily: Um, I did walk away with tools and I think the—one of the biggest things that wasn’t necessarily a tool was that human connection because we had—it was a group of 40 people, we all started the program together, but then we had 10 people in our small groups, and we—and the connections that I made it that group were just connecting on such a deep level and—cuz everybody shared. And I didn’t care what anybody looked like or what their body looked like, and, and I think that allowed me to see that in myself—these people that loved me so much for, like, that I’m farting and I’m wearing these same stupid yoga pants and I’m fat, and I’m trapped—me in my mind.
Paul: And I love that you’re saying, “I’m farting.” You didn’t even fart.
Lily: I did not even fart! No, I didn’t! I didn’t fart!
Paul: But that you had even talked about it would make you unattractive.
Lily: Yeah, yeah, I know and then I talked about it all the time, like, towards the end.
Paul: So the connection.
Lily: And then, but also when I did my, my, like, experiential bigger part, what I realized was missing was a Higher Power, because I was like, I’m ready to not obsess about what I’m eating, not obsess about my body, but I don’t know how else to live. I don’t know—since I was five years old, I planned my moves so my dad wouldn’t be annoyed, or I planned my moves so things would be perfect. And my life fucking sucked, it wasn’t perfect but I didn’t know how to even have a clear mind. So I’m still searching for—because I wasn’t really raised with any religion so it’s not something that’s easy for me to fall back on, but I do feel like I’m a spiritual person. I’ve been meditating since November. Um, and I am able to believe there’s a god, not like a god in the traditional sense but believe in a Higher Power, so I think that tool. And then we—I learned so much—they did different workshops on relationships and I think some of those were so helpful with my husband. And then the tools of embracing my imperfections, because they kind of personalized it—and then finding my inner child—it sounds, like, so cheesy to say.
Paul: I feel the same way but it’s fucking true.
Lily: Yeah, I think like, that—I’ve been silly—I think the tools that they gave me at Onsite, combined with the people that I met that allowed me to be silly, like, I wanted to go to bed because I wanted to get, like, my eight hours of sleep, but I didn’t. I ended up staying out and like fooling around just being silly, and like having s’mores and—
Paul: Probably all that stuff that fourteen-year-old girl wanted to do, but instead she got forced into giving a blowjob.
Lily: Yes. And I think I had intimate connections with people where I knew that there was no chance we were having sex and …
Paul: That’s so nice, isn’t it?
Lily: Yeah.
Paul: When that’s taken off the table and you just know there’s an openness there that isn’t going to lead someplace bad.
Lily: Yeah, and I think it was that – I would have just honest, open connections with so many people and a lot of it was men. And, and I didn’t ever feel threatened like something was gonna happen and, and it was those tools that, like, I loved that. And I loved hearing these people’s stories and their intimacy. I want that from my husband, like I want this.
Paul: It’s awesome.
Lily: And so I brought it home and I just have kind of carried on being, like, childlike, I guess? That way of being silly—my daughter and my husband—and so that’s what I—when I tell myself, cuz I probably even gained like five more pounds since I’ve been back from Onsite and sometimes I’m almost bowled over with—I can’t believe this is my body. But then I’m like, I’d rather people say, “She’s so funny. She is fun. She has the best dinner parties. Like, I love her,” rather than, “Did you see Lily, she’s so thin.” You know, which I’m not getting right now, but I-I-I-I don’t care.
Paul: I-it sounds—the tools that you describe, learning how to communicate your feelings, feeling that energy of a deep connection with other people, um, and learning to embrace your imperfections, those to me are the three most important tools th-th-that you can learn. Um, and those—that’s the pathway t-to intimacy. Um, I-I was telling Lily as I was setting up the equipment to record here at her house that very few things excite me as much as meeting somebody and having the kind of conversation th-th-that we’re having where we talk about our darkness, our secrets, our shame, um, it’s like Christmas for me because it’s just—that’s my Higher Power. Whatever that thing is in the universe, whatever—wherever that energy comes from, th-that’s my Higher Power. It’s better than any drug that I’ve ever had and it makes me so ok with exactly where I am. Cuz for me a successful life is just stringing together as many moments of me being comfortable with who I am and where I am at the exact moment and not feeling like I should be someplace else and I’m blowing it.
Lily: Yeah. I completely agree. And I feel blessed that that’s—I can have those connections in my job as well because I feel like I felt so alone and awkward and disgusting growing up and ashamed, and so when I do those honest connections with the kids that I see in my work—
Paul: She’s a school psychologist. And what is the age range of the kids that you deal with?
Lily: Uh, kindergarten through fifth grade. So when sometimes I have those kids that are like anxious like me or we do have those—not with every student—but those open and honest connections and I—that’s when I’m like I’m in—I love my job. I love my life. I would see kids for free for this.
Paul: And those kids, th-that’s so great now that you’re—you have those tools now to bring to your job and kids are gonna benefit.
Lily: Yeah, I’ve done some of the activities that I did there, even the closing activity I copied that exactly and brought it to some of my groups.
Paul: That’s awesome. Do you feel like – where there other seminal moments?
Lily: No, I think we covered them.
Paul: Are you ready to do a fear-off and a love-off?
Lily: Yes.
Paul: Um, do you want to start, let’s start with fears?
Lily: Ok. I’m afraid that I will get fat.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid as I make more friends it dilutes the connection I have with my existing friends.
Lily: Oh, that is a good one. I’m afraid that Mary and Ed won’t love me when I’m fat and they’ll think I look disgusting.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid that a person I can’t fucking stand is more like me than I like to admit.
Lily: Um, I’m afraid that my fears are stupid and they’re really bad. I didn’t write that one down.
Paul: That’s a good one!
Lily: I’m really afraid of my fears.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid that my checking account is soon going to be at zero.
Lily: I didn’t write this one down but I’m afraid we won’t be able to pay our mortgage this summer.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid my sleep habits are ruining my aspirations.
Lily: Oh, I’m afraid people will notice that I’ve gained weight and feel sad for me.
Paul: I’m afraid I don’t even have the energy for a garage sale.
Lily: I’m afraid I won’t be beautiful if I’m heavy.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I don’t know that I look fat.
Lily: I’m afraid that my grandmother will say something about my weight this summer.
Paul: I’m afraid I made the mistake of stopping doing roadwork and I’m going to regret it, even though I don’t miss it for a second.
Lily: I’m afraid that I’ll let my body ruin my life and put me in a bad mood.
Paul: I’m afraid the termite damage I just found is way, way worse than I think.
Lily: I’m afraid that I’ll never get pregnant and allow that disappointment to make me feel hopeless and depressed.
Paul: I’m afraid nobody will buy, uh, anything I’m thinking of making in my woodshop.
Lily: I’ll buy something.
Paul: I am going to hold you to that.
Lily: I will, I will.
Paul: All right.
Lily: I’m afraid I’ll never get period again.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I will never be self-sufficient again.
Lily: I’m afraid I’ll get pregnant and then have a miscarriage.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid there will soon be no difference between corporate America and the military.
Lily: I’m afraid I’ll lose my mind.
Paul: I’m afraid the middle class will never return and ignorant people will buy the lies given by the ruling class. Sorry if that came across as political to anybody.
Lily: No.
Paul: Ah, go fuck yourselves.
Lily: I’m afraid mine sound so superficial and yours are so serious and mine is like 20 things on me being afraid of being fat. It’s like all the same. (laughs) Ok, I’m afraid that this summer my parents will make me hate my body again and I won’t be able to stay in a good mindset.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid my brain will never be sharp enough, uh, to perform live again.
Lily: I’m afraid I’ll neglect Mary when I have a new baby.
Paul: I’m afraid I will ask for help and no one will answer.
Lily: I will answer you. (laughs) I’m afraid I’m giving Mary food and body issues.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I will die confused, lonely and sad.
Lily: That one is—
Paul: Let’s end the show on that one. (laughs)
Lily: (snorts and laughs) I snort when I laugh and it’s like when I do a genuine laugh and that came out at Onsite. Like my friend Gordon was like, “Do you snort?” And I was like, “I do!” But I haven’t like snorted.
Paul: I do too, I do too sometimes. It’s really gotta be like a super, super hard uncontrollable laugh, but, yeah, I’ve done that before.
Lily: I hope to snort-laugh some time soon. Um, I’m afraid of wearing a bathing suit this summer.
Paul: I’m out of fears.
Lily: Ok, I have a few more.
Paul: Ok.
Lily: Should I?
Paul: Yeah, just plow through them.
Lily: I’m afraid—I think I’ve said this so many times, but I’m afraid—but I feel so stupid that so many of mine are on weight and body but my body’s so different than it was. Except my husband said last night he can’t even tell the difference. He can tell from my from my thinnest, but like from a few months ago, he’s like, “I can’t tell.” I don’t know if he’s lying, but in a way that’s crazy because—I eat ice cream now, I even bake cookies, um, so whatever.
Um, I’m afraid that all my aunts and my family will talk about the weight I’ve gained. I’m seeing them a lot this summer.
Um, I’m afraid I’ll fall apart when m parents die.
I’m afraid that the people I love don’t know how much I love them.
I’m afraid that if I relax Mary will have an accident and die.
I’m afraid that if Mary dies then I’ll be so miserable and mad that I’ll ruin my life and destroy my marriage.
I’m afraid I’ll lose my job.
I’m afraid of how I’ll feel if someone makes a comment about my body.
I’m afraid I’ll have to watch Mary die horribly in a plane crash or a car crash.
I’m afraid I’ll be using my phone and kill someone when I’m driving.
I’m afraid I’ll give in to the fear of driving into someone or driving off the road.
I’m afraid that I haven’t given Arrow, my dog, a good life since Mary’s been born and I’m afraid he doesn’t feel happy and loved.
I’m—when I’m wearing a low-cut dress, sometimes I’m afraid I’m just gonna pull it down because I’m not wearing a bra. Um, and I’m afraid—
Paul: Intentionally or unintentionally?
Lily: No. No, intentionally. Sometimes I feel like I’m holding myself back, like I’m just—you know that fear of—I feel like a crazy person sometimes, just with my body and like I’m just gonna, like, rip down my shirt, which I wouldn’t do, but … Sometimes I’m like, “Don’t wear that dress,” because like if the urge is overwhelming.
Paul: I-I-I understand that and I think it’s us giving weight to our intrusive thoughts, that we think that because the thought—it’s like this uncomfortable thought comes in, and then we’re like, “Oh, that’s a terrible thought. Get that out of your head.” Which then makes the other part of your brain go, “No. Let’s stroke that thought. Let’s just sit and think about it.” And then you go to the place of, “Oh my God, I’m not able to control this. It’s not leaving my head. This must even have more power than I think it does.”
Lily: Yeah. And I think for me those intrusive thoughts—because I was so controlled before, um, just so controlling in everything that I did that those intrusive thoughts didn’t have any weight, cause I was like this ultimate control person, and now that I’m just more free and, like, I have sex when I want to, I eat some ice cream if I want to, when the intrusive thoughts come, like, I’m just—they were scary to me in the beginning. Now a thought comes and I’m like, “You are fine.” Because I’ve been having those intrusive thoughts since March—or they—that is when they first got scary. But now I’m like, “It’s been so long. You’re not chopping off your hand. You’re not gonna kill your dog and flash the world.”
Paul: Everybody thinks those—some variation on those thoughts. Everybody does.
Lily: I didn’t know that. It’s weird. But why is the mind so weird?
Paul: It’s so fucking weird. You know, I-I-I said before on the podcast, something that I heard somebody say – we have no control over whether or not a bird lands on our head, but we have control over whether or not we let it build a nest. So, you know, don’t judge yourself by the birds th-that land o-on your head. That’s—we have no control, no control over that.
Lily: Yeah. So, but I-I guess this last one—one thing I said—when certain men walk past me, I’m afraid they’re gonna attack me.
Paul: Yeah.
Lily: So. I don’t have control over that, but then I do, I can fend them off with my arms. But so far that hasn’t happened.
Paul: Put on your yoga pants and fart.
Lily: Yes I can—but that’s the list of my fears.
Paul: That’s great. Let’s, uh, let’s do some loves.
Lily: Ok, I like that you added the loves.
Paul: Me too, it’s uh—
Lily: I really like it.
Paul: It’s uh, a nice, uh, kind of positive thing. Uh, I love, let’s see, I love watching twenty-something guys wipe out on pavement doing something stupid, but not barefoot.
Lily: I love The Mental Illness Happy Hour.
Paul: Oh, thank you. Uh, I love a bite of granola that has everything in it, especially a chewy raisin.
Lily: I love seeing men holding hands.
Paul: Uh, I love when my wife touches me, uh, affectionately.
Lily: I love my family.
Paul: I love when my credit card bill is lower than I thought it would be.
Lily: I love the smell of musk perfume.
Paul: Uh, I love a plate of Indian food that’s so good I feel like I just went on a vacation.
Lily: I love ice cream.
Paul: Uh, I love the feeling, uh, when I do something responsible a-and am not only not bored but energized by it.
Lily: I love summer.
Paul: I love getting out of my comfort zone and realizing it’s awesome.
Lily: I love the smell of warm sun on wet concrete.
Paul: Oh that’s a good one. That’s an awesome one. Uh, I love the dinner scene with Bernie Mac in House Party 3. I think I’ve rewound it and watched it like 30 times.
Lily: I feel like I haven’t seen it.
Paul: It’s—I can’t even describe it. It’s just so fucking funny. It’s Bernie Mac at his funniest.
Lily: I don’t have this one on there but that made me think of – I love watching ‘80’s movies—or movies from my childhood with my daughter.
Paul: Uh, I loved seeing the LA Kings win their first Stanley Cup.
Lily: I love how my skin feels after showering after being in the sun all day.
Paul: Uh, I love leaving just as someone boring arrives and realize I picked the perfect time to leave down to the second.
Lily: I feel like that’s when I see my Higher Power. Um, I love getting into a cross fit workout, losing myself, and grunting and just totally pushing myself.
Paul: Uh, I’m now going to go with some of Patty’s, uh, loves. Patty is a listener. Uh, “I love when a pair of jeans fits perfectly.”
Lily: I love listening to music on a run.
Paul: Uh, “I love when I catch myself smiling just from thinking of something.”
Lily: I love when I get a string of double-unders—that’s like when the jump rope goes under (indistinct) – when I can get ten or twenty.
Paul: That’s pretty impressive.
Lily: Yes, I’m a speedy jump roper.
Paul: Patty says, “I love singing loudly in my car while driving in traffic.”
Lily: I love feeling present, calm and connected.
Paul: Uh, “I love hearing from a friend I haven’t heard from in a long time say they’ve missed me or have been thinking of me.”
Lily: I love mini horses.
Paul: “I love watching things bloom.”
Lily: So, sorry, going to my mini horses, about me embracing my inner child, I was visiting my sister a few weeks ago and we were at this farm and nursery and a woman was talking about an eleven-year-old’s birthday party, and they had mini horses at the farm. They had all the mini horses and all the 11 year olds got to bathe them and do their hair then they made ice cream on the porch and I was like, “That sounds like an awesome birthday party.” And I’m doing it.
Paul: Really?!
Lily: I said, “I want that to be my 31st birthday party.” And so it’s in Novato up north—but I was like—my daughter was laughing so hard because I couldn’t stop talking about mini horses because I forgot my love for them. They make me so happy, the image of them. We went to the circus and they were there again. Um, I just love them so much. And so I’m going with that and I’m having a mini horse party.
Paul: That’s awesome! That’s awesome. I’d say you go the full bore and hire some mini cowboys to ride the mini horses. Uh, I think was it your turn or my turn?
Lily: I don’t know, I think—did I go off on my tangent on mini horses?
Paul: Oh yeah you did. Um, Back to Patty’s, uh, loves. “I love challenging myself with an impossible task only to excel at it.”
Lily: I love babies. I especially love their smell.
Paul: “I love when I know the answer to a trivia question.”
Lily: I love making jam with my dad.
Paul: “I love discovering something about myself and sharing it with someone.”
Lily: I love playing games and laughing with kids.
Paul: “I love having deep personal conversations with people that I hardly know.”
Lily: I love when students voluntarily come to see me.
Paul: “I love sun showers.”
Lily: I love Mattapoisset (sp?).
Paul: “I love splashing in puddles.”
Lily: I love getting my nails and toes done.
Paul: “I love the wind in my face while riding a bike downhill.”
Lily: I love coconuts.
Paul: “I love when,” I guess this must be her son, “when Dexter is laying on my lap or my chest,” their dog, “and stretches his front paws as if he’s hugging me.”
Lily: I love taking a bath and reading in bed.
Paul: “I love just barely making a deadline.”
Lily: I love squeezing blackheads.
Paul: That’s a good one. “I love seeing a page filled with text.”
Lily: I love taking off my bra at the end of the day.
Paul: Me too. “I love the sound of a page turning in a great book.”
Lily: I love how my teeth feel after brushing them.
Paul: “I love having exciting dreams and learning about myself from them.”
Lily: I love getting into clean sheets.
Paul: I love tubing with friends on a hot summer day.
Lily: I love really long walks and the feeling I get on a really long run, like I could just keep running or walking forever.
Paul: “I love getting goose bumps from someone.”
Lily: I love cooking with my daughter.
Paul: “I love the smell of Bounce sheets.”
Lily: I love Onsite – that’s that workshop.
Paul: “I love seeing bunnies eating the weeds in my yard.”
Lily: That’s it for my loves, although I could have gone on forever about the food I love, but I stopped myself.
Paul: Uh, she has three more so I’ll just finish these out. “I love freak weather events like hailstorms and sun dogs?” Never heard of sundogs.
“I love walking barefoot on super soft grass.” That’s a great one.
“I love the feeling of accomplishment after I finish my to do list.”
And her last one, Patty says, “I love finding a good book at the store then finding the same one in the clearance section for a fraction of the cost.”
Well, Patty, thank you for your, uh, your awesome list and, uh, Lily, thank you for, uh, for a great, uh, a great conversation. And great love and fear list. And it’s really, really nice getting to, getting to talk to you and, uh, you did not disappoint. I had a feeling from our email correspondence that you would, you would be really open and vulnerable and you strike me as somebody that’s really, really seeking and that—those to me are the most interesting people in the world.
Lily: Thank you.
Paul: So. Thank you.
Well, many thanks to Lily for a really, really touching episode. That, uh, that goes up there as one of my, one of my favorites. Um so many thanks to her. And, um, there’s a lot of people actually—I’m gonna send you out with a survey in a couple of minutes, but there’s, uh, just a couple of things I wanna mention before that. Um, people I wanna thank that help with the show: uh, audio collectors, um, for future montages are, uh, Debbie, Megan, Tim, Zack and Matt. Many thanks to you guys, it’s grueling work. And people that are currently transcribing the episodes, um, headed up by Jennifer, um, Angela and Angela, there’s Christian, Sean, Hannah, Juanie, Sherri, Nate, Wendy, Amy, and Alexis. Thank you to all you guys. And I think actually a couple of of people might have come on board since then, so if—I’m sorry if I’m skipping you. Uh, I want to thank the guys who keep the spammers out of the forum – John, Michael, Manny and Dan. And of course, many thanks to Steve Grieve, who, uh, does the website for free and puts his heart and his soul into it. And I appreciate that very much.
Um, if, uh, if you feel like supporting the show, there’s a couple of different ways you can do that. You can go to the website, mentalpod.com and support it with a financial donation via PayPal, either a single or recurring monthly, which makes me extremely happy, um, would love if you guys could, uh, could do that. Um, you can do as little as $5 a month or up to $25 a month. Some people have done that—one person. Um, you can also support us by, uh, shopping through our Amazon search link and then we get a couple nickels from Amazon, doesn’t cost you anything. That’s there on the home page, right hand side about half way down. You can also buy a t-shirt and you can support us non-financially two different ways: by going to iTunes and giving us a good rating, good review, um; and you can, uh, help the show by spreading the word about it through Reddit, Tumblr, all those other, all those other fancy sites that those, uh, upstart kids are, uh, so, so crazy about.
Um, ok, let’s take it out with a survey, this was, uh, the Shame and Secrets survey and this was filled out by, um, a guy named Danny. He is in his 20’s, he’s straight, uh, but he also classifies it as “withdrawn heterosexual.” Uh, raised in a totally chaotic environment. Was the victim of sexual abuse and reported it. Um, he reported it to his parents and it was never addressed. “Deepest, darkest thoughts?” He writes, “I constantly think about dying or killing myself. I think I am a loser and I feel like no one wants me around or to be around me. Sex terrifies me as well as just about any intimacy, especially if it has to do with the opposite sex. I’m afraid I’m gonna die alone and I’m even more terrified that I will fall in love with someone again and then that person will not be a part of my life when the relationship ends, like every girlfriend I’ve ever had.”
“Most powerful sexual fantasies?” He writes, “Most of my fantasies recently are taken directly from internet porn. I’ve always been attracted to women who are thick, usually with large breasts. I used to be able to be very creative in my imagination, usually involving the person I was in a relationship with at the time or previous girlfriend, but lately I’ve lost the ability to get anything going in my mind. For some reason, I’ve always had a thing for girls in tight jeans.”
“Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?” He writes, “Yes.”
“Deepest, darkest secrets—things you’ve done or things that have happened to you?” He writes, “I faked a panic attack when I was 16 to get out of trouble with my parents while I was driving my sister home. I faked being hurt to get out of my grade school’s 5K run. When I was young, about 6 to 9 years of age, my very attractive babysitter and her friend (they were in their early to mid teens) discovered my/gave me an erection and began playing with it. They didn’t do anything sexual but they laughed and toyed with it and I believe I remember them commenting on how large it was. So I assume they’d had experiences with other peni to compare it to. I told my parents what had happened to me long after it had happened, and she never babysat us again but it was also never discussed again. I walked in on my parents having sex when I was 14 and that really fucked me up. My mom tried to talk to me about it the next day but I was too embarrassed to discuss it. My dad walked in on me masturbating when I about 16 to yell at me about something. He just went on yelling at me as if my dick was not in my hand.”
“Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” He writes, “Yes, I have very low self-esteem, especially when it comes to dealing with women and very especially when it comes to dealing with women who are sexually interested in me. There have been several instances in the last few months where women told me they were flat interested in me and I froze and/or ran away. I feel like shit and I beat myself up about it.”
Um, Danny, my heart goes out to you buddy. Um, it obviously sounds like some damage was done from that stuff that happened with, uh, those girls when they were babysitting you and other events in your life. Um, and, you know, i-i-it’s amazing what therapy and, uh, support groups and talking about it will do, how it will help kind of loosen things up and make it easier to process. And it’s not easy, it’s often painful, um, but you don’t have to do it alone and that’s the really cool thing.
Um, I went to my psychiatrist, um, I go see him every six months, and, um, for those of you who are regular listeners, you know a lot of shit has gone down with me emotionally, uh, in the last six months. And so I kind of filled my psychiatrist in on all of this stuff, and after I was finished he just kind of shook his head and he said that he was amazed that so few people ever—the phrase he used was “stare into the jaws of the beast”, you know, they usually let it destroy them. And a little part of me kind of felt good and proud that he was complimenting me on facing my demons, but after I left his office do you know what I really felt like? I-I think the reason why it didn’t completely ring true to me was because I was just—the picture he was painting was just of me standing there kind of staring down the beast, and it wasn’t. And all of the sudden I had this image that all of my friends, all of the people from the support group, all of the listeners, my wife, all of you guys were there kind of holding my hands, like, like, villagers with torches, helping me stare down the beast, and to stop running from it. And that’s, that’s what I think we need to do as human beings, is just get some, get some people that are safe, that we can trust. They’re not always easy to find but, um, ask them, ask them to help us stare that beast down. Cuz it’s too much, it’s too much to stare th-that thing down by ourselves. I could never do it. I ran from it for forty some odd years. And I can tell you when you do stop running, and you look at it, you look at those truths, no matter fucking painful they are, and it doesn’t destroy you, it’s a pretty empowering feeling. It’s painful as fuck but it’s pretty empowering and it’s pretty cool to look around and go, “Wow. These people helped me do it. They must really love me.” And that’s a pretty awesome feeling.
So if you’re stuck, just remember there can be help if you’re willing to get out of your comfort zone. And you don’t have to keep feeling the way you do. Um, you’re not alone. Thanks for listening.
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