The podcaster (Walking the Room), author (He’s Just Not That Into You) and guitarist (The Reigning Monarchs) returns to discuss the mania, depression and paranoia that left him considering suicide in a Montreal hotel room, and his subsequent decision to go on medication. They also discuss passion versus obsession, finding a sense of purpose, therapy, and the fluidity and dynamics of suicidal ideation.
Episode notes:
Follow Greg on Twitter @gregorybehrendt Listen to the podcast he does with Dave Anthony, Walking the Room.
Episode Transcript:
Paul: Welcome to episode 110 with my return guest Greg Behrendt. I’m Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, 90 minutes of honesty about all of the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions and past traumas to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show’s not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It’s not a doctor’s office. It’s more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com and there’s all kinds of stuff there that you can get involved in. There’s a forum, there’s about ten different surveys that you can take that help me get to know you guys and you can also hear, you know, what other listeners are like. As you know, I read a lot of those survey responses on the show but I encourage you to go there and keep taking them because it’s very enlightening and I really, really enjoy getting to know you guys and what your thoughts and feelings are, all that kind of stuff. You can also sign up for my newsletter there.
And if you happen to live in Portland, I—you may be hearing this after it’s over, but if you’re catching this podcast right as it goes up, tonight, Friday, April 19th and Saturday April 20th I am doing the Portland Bridgetown Comedy Festival and go to their website for more information. But we’re doing a live Mental Illness Happy Hour show Saturday afternoon at 2:00 at the Tabor Theater. So if you can come join us for that that would be cool. And I’m nervous about it. I’m really nervous. I’ve never done a live version of this show and the negative voice in my brain is just having a fucking field day that, “Oh, you’re gonna be unprepared. You’ve already blown it, you should have prepared more than you have. You have no right being at a comedy festival with this podcast.” On and on and on and on. One of the hardest things about being crazy is knowing when you’re being crazy or knowing when it’s reality. A good litmus test for me and how I’m feeling is the manner in which I play hockey. I play ice hockey a couple of times a week. And last night I had a game and my team is not good this season. We lost a couple of good players and we played a team that’s pretty stacked with good players. And I knew it was gonna be a rough game but when it got to be eleven to two—and my attitude towards it was really good for 57 of the 60 minutes. And then they just kept trying to score when it was 11 to 2 with three minutes left. And something in me just—I don’t know, I just—one of their guys had a breakaway and I was playing defense and I was just like, “I’m gonna run this motherfucker over.” And I’m not gonna lie. It felt good. I knocked this guy completely off his skates. I fell too but it—I mean I really unloaded on this guy. And the weird part is I had substitute played for them the week before. They had the game after mine and their bench was short and I said, you know, “Do you want me to play for you?” And they said, “Yeah.” And so I got to know these guys a little bit last week and really liked them and they really liked me. But here I was just one week later and because they’re running the score up I just, you know, took this guy’s fucking head off. And of course, you know, I got tossed out of the game. And he gets up from the ice and he’s just incredulous. He’s like, “Paul, why did you do that?” And I said, “It’s 11 to 2 and you’re running the fucking score up.” And I just kept saying that, and yelling at his teammates. And by the time I went over and got my extra sticks, because I had to leave the ice surface and go to the locker room when you get kicked out, you gotta gather all your shit up and do the walk of shame, and I passed by him and I stopped and I gave him a little pat on the back and I said, “I’m sorry, I’m just really frustrated.” And he said, “It’s ok.” And it felt good to you know, clean up my end of the deal there, and I apologized to each of the guys on his team as they were leaving the ice, I was standing there. And I apologized to my teammates. And one of the things that I’ve learned in working on myself through therapy and support groups is you can use moments like that to cull emotional kind of data about what’s going on inside you. And so I tried to do that when I came home, I got kind of quiet and I tried to think, what was it about running the score up that made me so mad? Cuz it doesn’t really matter, you know, I’m a chubby middle-aged guy playing in a silly beer league. And I was like, “What did it make me feel as they’re trying to score more goals and there’s only three minutes left?” and I thought, “Well, it makes me feel disrespected.” And then it hits me, it makes me feel like I’m being taken advantage of, like they know we’re the weaker team, that we’re defenseless, that we can’t stop them from scoring, and it makes us look bad as they score goals but they don’t care. All they care about is how many goals they score. And I thought, “That’s what it’s about. It’s about me having a really sensitive part inside myself about being taken advantage of. And so I think the next time it happens I don’t know what I’ll do, but maybe I’ll try to calm down and just go, “Ok, this is your fear of being taken advantage of.” Or maybe I’ll just lay the guy out and when he says, “Why did you that?” I’ll say, “Because you remind me of my mom.” And then he can say, “Well, I’m trying so hard because I never got a hug from my dad.” And then we’ll go to center ice and high five and make out.
Alright. I want to thank our sponsor for this show, Squarespace. For those of you that don’t know, Squarespace is the famous drag and drop site platform that lets you build a sleek personal or business website in a couple of clicks. So if you go over to squarespace.com/happyhour you can start a free trial and can use the offer code happy when you buy a plan and you’ll get a 10% discount. So that’s squarespace.com/happyhour and then the offer code is “happy.” And many, many thanks to Squarespace for supporting this show.
Let’s get to some surveys. Actually I got a couple of emails I want to read too. The interview with Greg is a little bit on the shorter side because we’ve interviewed him before. This interview kind of focuses on a little bit of a meltdown he had about six months ago. So I’ve decided to, instead of having a short episode, I’d have it be the usual length but just have more surveys and emails and stuff in it. This was just an email I got from Joel who’s a mental health professional and on the Greg Fitzsimmons episode we were talking about ADHD and he offered, Joel offers a quick analogy about how meds work with ADHD. He says, “Imagine you’re playing an intense game of Tetris. The pieces continually fall and get faster. The pieces are the random thoughts, inclinations, stimulation and feelings most people have throughout the day. Unless you’re able to fit those pieces together into lines, they get crowded and useless pretty fast. Most people have the ability to organize those pieces on their own. People with ADHD lack that. It’s like they’re a terrible Tetris player. The stimulant medication gives the Tetris player part of the brain an extra oomph to make all those pieces work in a functional way.” Thank you for that Joel.
I want to read an email that I got from our listener Ann in Berlin who some of you may know from previous emails. She always writes so eloquently. She wrote about being an atheist about a year ago that a lot of people requested to be reprinted, it was so well written. But she—the episode with Greg Fitzsimmons we tossed the word “pussy” around and she writes, “I’m not calling you out for using the word ‘pussy’ as a synonym for weakness since I am guilty of the same ‘crime,’ just sharing some ideas that I tried to establish in my own head. We call someone a pussy for being weak, yet the vagina is a pretty tough organ. It contains very strong muscles that are capable of pushing out tiny humans that weigh about three kilograms, expand up to 200% in the process, and return to nearly its original shape. The pussy is a pretty self-reliant thing. It cleans itself, kills bacteria that enter it, and produces a natural lubricant called squalene that can also be found in sharks. Sharks!” Well then I think we’re agreed from now on we will use the word “cunt.” Ba-doom-boom. Well that you for that Ann.
This is from the Body Shame collector, written by a guy who calls himself Sweaty Soul. He’s in his thirties. “What do you dislike about your body?” “I’m fat and have a small penis. That is what I hate by the way. The fat I hate because it’s something I’ve done to myself and only exacerbates the problem of being hung like an infant. The small penis I hate because, well, it’s a small penis. Because of these two things, I don’t even attempt to meet a woman because it would just be a massive disappointment for her.” You know, I’ve never heard of somebody breaking up with someone because they were fat or because they had a small penis. But I have heard people breaking up with somebody else because they couldn’t get over their self-hatred. And that that sabotaged the relationship.
And then this is the last one before we get to the interview. This is also from the Body Shame survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Mackenzie. She’s in her 20’s. “What do you like or dislike about your body?” She writes, “My disgusting cellulite thighs, my flat white girl ass, my bad teeth, my thin hair, my flabby arms, my ugly feet, my mousy features, my brittle fingernails, my freckles, my pasty skin, and my smile. Other than that, I love my body.”
[SHOW INTRO]
Paul: I’m here with one of my favorite people in the world.
Greg: Awww.
Paul: Actually, he couldn’t make it.
Greg: (laughs)
Paul: But I’m here with Greg Behrendt instead. You are one of my—
Greg: I got here yesterday. You know how they say “A day late or a dollar short?”
Paul: Yeah.
Greg: You know what you get with Greg Behrendt? A day early or 15-20 minutes late. So you either get me the day I wasn’t invited to your home. Or late to the day I was invited.
Paul: That’s right, you showed up, you thought it was yesterday and you showed up.
Greg: Yeah, I had a hat on.
Paul: Your text made me laugh. “I’m here.” And then five minutes later, “See you tomorrow.” It was just—yeah.
Greg: I was excited. I like—I loved the last time I did this show so I guess I was eager to be here.
Paul: Yeah. Well, I’m glad to have you here. For those of you that haven’t listened to Greg’s previous episode, nothing outwardly dramatic about your story. You know, you’re guy that’s been sober a while. You know, you tried to numb yourself for a long time with drugs and alcohol. And got a great family life, you’ve got a wife; you’ve got two lovely daughters.
Greg: Yeah.
Paul: One of probably the funniest podcasts around called Walking the Room.
Greg: I’m no longer on that, but thank you. I lost the job on my own podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s Dave Anthony and Joel McHale now. They recast it. And the numbers are through the roof. He tests so well. People love him. So, but I still do the—let them use my closet. I’m on the producer’s end. I got a piece of it.
Paul: (laughs) For those of you who have never heard, he’s kidding of course, he’s still on the podcast. Those of you who never heard Walking the Room, it is—it’s so wrong, it’s right. That’s the best way I can describe it. It’s the honesty of this show in a rollicking, politically incorrect—
Greg: Right, but forward thinking like pro-women, we’re just not pro-us.
Paul: Yes!
Greg: Really, you know, it’s mostly just about the tragedy of two old men who can’t deal with the fact that their careers have not gone the way they expected them too, and they plan to do nothing about it, and they’re parents. You know, that kind of thing.
Paul: Yeah.
Greg: And also just a curious, you know, can you pick something up with your butthole? Like those are some of the things that we explore on the podcast.
Paul: It’s called Walking the Room and it was picked by the Onion A.V. Club as one of the top ten podcasts of 2012.
Greg: I mean, that felt like a mercy—I mean, it was very sweet of them. They’re very nice. Yeah.
Paul: Oh, it’s a great podcast.
Greg: Thank you.
Paul: People may also know you as the author of He’s Just Not That Into You.
Greg: Co-author.
Paul: Co-author of that. And they may just know you as a jackass they see about town.
Greg: I think—I mean there’s a lot—like the guy that I almost got in a fight with at the deli, he—that’s how he sees me.
Paul: Yeah.
Greg: He sees me as, “Mind your own business.”
Paul: He sees the real you.
Greg: Yeah, he got a little taste of it the other day. That was fun.
Paul: You didn’t throw down, did you?
Greg: Umm, well, no, but I, I mean, I—
Paul: Because a guy that wears a cardigan, I don’t see—I don’t see throwing down.
Greg: Here’s the thing – I’m not a throw down guy unless you yell at an older woman because you missed your number and she says, “I’m 35.” And he said, “No. I don’t think so lady, I’m next.” And I said, “Well they already called your number.” And he said, “Oh yeah, is that how this is gonna go, bro?” And then because of what we’ll talk about later, I’m newly medicated, what I’ve found is when you don’t have any of the fear that you used to have before, you can stay in the moment and just repeat back to the guy, say back to the guy what he’s saying, but you just say it quietly and you smile when you say it.
At one point he said, “You don’t want to mess with me, man.” And I go, “You don’t want to mess with me, bro.” And I just smiled at him like maybe we’d have a hug. He just got more and more furious and eventually he just ordered some chicken. (Both laugh) It really was that weird thing of—I really was like—I really have had this sort of, you know, kind of awakening through this situation, through using the meds, and I was just present for it and I was just like, “I’m not gonna yell. But you’re also not gonna push an old woman around on Superbowl Sunday.” This woman’s wearing a lime suit, she’s got enough going against her.
Paul: On a Monday she’s on her own. But not Superbowl Sunday.
Greg: Here’s my favorite part of the whole thing – as we’re having this back and forth and he’s getting more and more puffed up, and he’s a big dude and he’s wearing sweats, he says, he says something like, you know, “You’re really—you’re heading for it, buddy.” Something like that. And the woman says, “Go ahead and hit him!”
Paul: (laughs)
Greg: “We’re all watching. Go ahead and hit him!” And I kept thinking, “You know, if he hits me, I could get that computer. Like I could get that computer. And also—“
Paul: You might not be able to operate it.
Greg: No. And a couple of weeks ago I split my head open trying to teach my daughter how to skateboard, so I know what a shot to the skull feels like recently. I lived through it. So there’s really not a whole lot he can do to me that I haven’t already felt in the last ten weeks. Plus I just feel good enough about myself right now to not—to be able to—I could take a few shots.
Paul: Yeah.
Greg: So, anyway, he just ordered chicken. He backed down.
Paul: So what would the old Greg have done, the unmedicated Greg?
Greg: I’d have met him with the same sort of ferocity. I would have come back at him as, “Really? Want a piece of this shit? Cuz I’ll fucking…” You know, I would have gone that route. I would have gone like, “You want some—I’ll fucking—I’ll tear you fucking lungs out!” Like I would have gone to that. The problem is that guy couldn’t rip anyone’s lungs out. So he’s—I’m a fine enough actor to be able to pull that off but I couldn’t then when that—like maybe later! I don’t have my lung-pulling hands on, like I don’t know what I would say. But I just—I wasn’t…
Paul: When I get back from my car, I’m gonna kick your ass!
Greg: It would’ve just escalated and it would’ve like—it wasn’t like I wasn’t in fear, it’s just I would have let my fear take it to that point where my wife grabs my arm a lot and goes, “Don’t make this a thing.” You know, we’re in the car, any time where somebody just bumps me and then I feel like I’ve been shoved by God and I’m like, “Shove back.” And you know, I go, “Life can’t—fuck you life!” And I just don’t have the energy I suppose for that or I don’t know.
Paul: And isn’t all anger, isn’t there just a little ember of fear inside that feeding it anyway?
Greg: Totally, I mean…
Paul: It may be really buried and you’re not recognizing what that fear is, but …
Greg: Yeah, no, totally. And I genuinely watched a guy yell at an older woman at the store and was like, “Bro.” And I didn’t come at him like that; I was just like, “Bro. Like you have to be clear on this. You’re 55 with a mustache and sweats and this woman is 80+, like just let her have, let her order and you can go next or whatever.” There were a lot of different ways he could have resolved that. You know, even by saying, “You know, guys, I missed my shot. I’m 34.” To which both of us would have said, “Yeah, go ahead. No problem.” Superbowl Sunday, I’m just getting some chicken. He was getting some chicken. He really got pumped up. And then at one point he called me a slob. And I said, “But you’re wearing sweats! Like that doesn’t work!” That really made me mad. And then a little crowd gathered around. There’s a little bit—I got a couple of laughs. It wasn’t a bad set.
Paul: So let’s talk about the, what do you want to call it? The episode?
Greg: Yeah, whatever.
Paul: The meltdown?
Greg: Yeah.
Paul: What—I haven’t listened to your podcast.
Greg: Right.
Paul: In a while. I haven’t listened to any podcasts in a while.
Greg: I get that.
Paul: So I don’t—and I purposely haven’t really—knowing that I was gonna have you come back on here and talk about this; I just kind of wanted to hear this for the first time from you. That’s my way of justifying my laziness and my being a bad friend.
Greg: No, no, no. And I also don’t think—it’s probably better to do it—you know, to have it be organic between the two of us because the way we would discuss it would be different than the way I discussed it on the show. And also those people live with me from week to week, but it wasn’t like a moment of clarity. It was exactly like the escalation of my alcoholism where finally I’m like, “Ok. This—something is off.” And it started in July of last year when I—the end began in Montreal when I went for the festival and had seven nights in a theater and I was getting crowds of—like we had to cancel the show twice because nobody showed up. Or two or three people and I would go out and sit with them and say, “It would really be silly to do a show.” And usually they were hardcore fans of the podcast that had travelled from great distances. And cancelling the show the first night was really difficult. And I woke up the next—and I would find that there would be some sort of an event and that would send me into a spiral. And usually the spiral, in the old days the spiral would last for a couple hours. And then they would last for a couple days. Well these clouds would come in and they would just—something would set off and it would be—I would know I was in for days of being under, of just—the voices and sadness and just a kind of hopelessness that I just had not experienced, you know. Then I would catch some elevator ride up, I don’t know, a good review. Or some days it would just clear, the sky would just clear. Maybe the right cup of coffee at the right time. But then that ride would go really high, you know. And I’d be on this manic upswing, you know. And I just started to realize that I was going on these swings, they were lasting longer and longer, and the last one ended with, “Maybe just throw yourself out the window here in Montreal. You just go right out the window. There’s plenty—I mean, you’re insured to the fucking gills, your kids can go to any school.” You know what I mean? Like genuinely, people would be better off without me. And that thing where you do realize, you know how people are always surprised by a suicide? It’s not because it was plotted, it’s because it came upon that person and they went, “Now.” It’s not this—because no one’s thinking—they’re not thinking about you when they do it. So they didn’t—they weren’t gonna give you the opportunity to help them because, well, it may have been a series of slow events that led there, the moment is quick. You know, this stuff comes up on people much faster than I think is discussed and I think people think of depression as this sort of block of something as opposed to this very fluid, very quick, fleeting, diving, you know, it’s like a bird. It’s up, it’s down, it’s in, it’s sideways. And it just comes. And I’m like, “If I killed myself right now, which feels like the right choice, people will be fucking stunned.” There were people that were with me last night who were like, “He’s fine, he was actually kind of laughing about it. He didn’t seem upset.” Of course I didn’t seem upset. I didn’t feel suicidal. And suicidal thoughts are bad. Let’s just break it down – they’re bad.
So the first thing I did was I had a show that night where some people showed up. And oddly enough, and this is like kind of the neat thing in life, like Neal Brennan showed up, and Marc Maron. They’re not even friends of mine. Really, like friends friends. Neal’s not, Marc is kind of. But not close. He would say the same thing. They showed up to my show. They were the only peers—I think they were my only peers that have seen me do standup since Pardo came and visited me two Christmases ago in Portland. So I was like—that was a little bit like, “Ok. I’m ok.” A little bit. And then I said to my manager, “You have to call me every day because I’m not good. I’m in a bad place but I have to get home. And I gotta finish out this run.” So we actually were vacationing in Hawaii. I went from Canada to Hawaii, staying with some friends, and one of my friends was like, “You just gotta get in therapy. Just get—go, just go straight to therapy. Like get it—get off the airplane, go home and go to find someone.”
Paul: And you’d been to therapy before, right?
Greg: Yeah but years, years ago, like when I first got married, I was seeing a therapist and she was a girl that was like a student at UCLA and she just talked to me, and nothing happened. I was—it just was me talking. It was like this, you know, I didn’t get any …
Paul: A waste of time.
Greg: It was kind of a waste of time. But you don’t know. Here’s the thing – you don’t know. Therapists are like, you know, they’re like running shoes. Like they serve a really important purpose, but if they don’t work, they don’t work. That doesn’t mean all running shoes are bad. You just have to—you just have to really want to find that connection, because there are some people that are brilliant at this. And there are some people, like in any job. So, I think a lot of people think they’ve tried therapy. They figure all therapists must do they same thing, and then they don’t go back. So that’s something that’s important to know, it’s like they’re all different. Some of them talk too much. Anyway.
Paul: And the way that you feel when you’re in the room with that person is really important. Because I’ve been with therapists where I don’t feel like my sadness is able to come out for them to experience. And yet I can be with a therapist where I just see the look on their face and the compassion on their face and all that sadness can come up and out and then I can talk about it. And so there are, there are therapists whose very vibe will allow you to be more productive.
Greg: Yeah. And also you have to think about the biggest secret you have and think, “I don’t know if I can tell him now, but I can I tell him—maybe a year from now I could tell him that one thing.” You know, if you have a hot young girl therapist, you’re not gonna tell her about chronic masturbation. Or that’s all you’re gonna talk about. But it’s gonna be weird. It’s one or the other, like that’s just how that’s gonna go. So anyway, there was a woman who we had taken our kids to when they were having some anxiety, just some little kid stuff, and really was more for us as a group to figure out, hey, how do we—we’re not figuring—we don’t have tools. And she was great. And I said, “Look, I don’t know if you take adults but I am gonna die, I’m in a real tailspin. And even if you could just sit with me for an hour and help me plot out a course with somebody else, I have to go talk to another person.” And then I went and saw her. And when I would describe to her like what was going on with me, I would say, “It almost feels like I’m acting against my will when this depression sets in. It’s like the episodes feel alcoholic in that, like, I have to do a lot of apologizing afterwards for behavior I knew was bad at the time, but I couldn’t control it.” And the real fact of the matter is—
Paul: Because you were manic or angry in your episodes or ….
Greg: Both.
Paul: Or withdrawn?
Greg: Manic, angry, paranoid, really paranoid, really like, you know, fuck my manager, you know, my telltale signs were I wanted to write my—I always wanted to wake up and write my manager a letter. So that was one of my tipoffs. And then Amiira was—always never had my back. Constantly blaming my wife, “Well you don’t get me! Why aren’t you on my side?” She’s like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” Like it was really—the weird thing is too with this behavior, at least my experience is, I just focused in on the only fucking person I had trapped to listen to me. I could only, you know, I didn’t give it—Dave got a little bit of it. And Dave was one of the people that sort of kicked off that thought, because he was saying to me in our episodes, like, “Jesus, you’re like here today.” And I’d be like, “Yeah, but you’re crazy.” Like I used Dave as like this sick one in our relationship when in fact, you know, he has a pretty healthy relationship with his anger. And I have a really unhealthy relationship with my happiness. I’m the happy one! So, because our contrasting personalities on the podcast are that I’m the sweet one and I’m the listener and I’m this, and whatever horseshit I told myself about how I was.
So, anyway, long story short is we spent some time together and I kept saying to her it feels almost like there’s a shift inside of my body like chemistry. I feel a change inside and I can’t go there again. And I started to have an episode again. And I had a fight with Amiira, which we hadn’t had for the first six weeks of therapy, but then we had a really bad fight where she was like, “I’m done. Like we’re done.” And we don’t fight that often but she was like—she just hit her breaking point. And I went the next day and she said, “Ok, go see your physician.” And I saw him the next day—the day after that, we just put one of our dogs down.
Paul: Always good timing.
Greg: I mean it was all awesome. It was all happening at an awesome pace. And then he gave me, prescribed some drugs for me called Lexapro. She said, “I don’t know what you’ll be prescribed. These are the drugs—“ You know, she was throwing some names around, Xanax or whatever. Anyway, he saw—this one is fast acting and, you know, pretty strong, so I’m just gonna give you a tiny bit of it. So it’s like 20 milligrams for a whole dose and I still take just 5. So I just took a little bit of it and literally within hours I had to go to that—Pardo’s Right Now, is that what it’s called? The thing that was The Writer’s Room.
Paul: Oh, right, yeah.
Greg: And I was like, “What is happening?” I’m sitting backstage; I have zero anxiety about going on, which is my fuel. Anxiety can also feel good. Anxiety can be that weird like, “Oh, we’re gonna have a good time. It’s gonna be awesome.” I don’t have that. I’m like, “What is this gonna be like?” But at the same time, I ain’t tripping. I don’t care how good the other comics are in the room, I don’t care about Moshe’s career, or Tompkins, I don’t care about any of it. I don’t know if Tompkins or somebody was there. But anyway, I just go and do my set. I’m completely present for it and it goes great and it’s fine. And it’s been pretty much that journey ever since. You know, like very like, it’s like they say an elevator stopped falling and then all of my problems fell to the ground, so we weren’t all falling at once. And then I could see what size they were. They were still problems. My problems are not solved, but my approach to them is like, “Oh, well, we’ll figure this out.”
Paul: That’s a great way of putting it.
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Greg: So that was really like—that’s been my experience. And it’s interesting because I’ve talked a lot with my therapist now about brain chemistry and what your brain will do when you allow it to, and what my criteria is for happiness, which is not actual happiness, it’s a lack of unhappiness. You know, I like being here. In fact, I feel like if I go up too high, I start to go like, “I don’t want to—that’s scary up there. Stay down and do the work.” I’m able to have a good time and enjoy things, but the thing—what I thought was happiness was a mania almost. Do you get that?
Paul: Yeah, I have experienced mania before. I described to you when I was a guest on your podcast, with the buying of the domain names where I was just, you know, just, you know, for practically 48 straight hours just gobbling up useless, useless domain names.
Greg: Yeah, I love it.
Paul: Just absolutely convinced that—but I don’t have episodes like that very often. But there is a focus and a drive and a assuredness to manic behavior that is really intoxicating. Really intoxicating.
Greg: Yeah, yeah, totally. But always for me—this would happen a lot with songwriting, even joke writing, I would be super excited about it, we’d work on it, we’d make it, we’d record it, and then I’d listen to it and I would go into a depression that I couldn’t comprehend. Because it was like, “Oh, God, it’s awful.” And it’s like, it’s none of those things, it’s just a thing that you wrote that’s pretty good and the next ones will be—you know what I mean? I would attach an importance in what was gonna happen and this is the thing, and now we’re doing it and it’s all gonna be awesome and fuck this! It’s not the thing! And I don’t know what it is. I mean, I kind of had that with the podcast to be honest. We were doing the podcast and it was going really well at first, and I was like, “We’re on the Maron track, here we go, baby, I’m back!” And that didn’t happen. But then it became—now I see it as its own beautiful thing, like Dave and I have a rhythm now and I just love it. Like I don’t care what happens. Nothing has to happen with it. It’s perfect. It’s just perfect and I love it, but I did—I was attaching some—and then I had like, “Oh, the podcast isn’t going well, I’m not gonna work on that anymore.”
Paul: And I’m idiot for ever thinking that it was gonna be more than it is.
Greg: Yeah, you know, and—right. Exactly. I felt—exactly I felt exactly like that.
Paul: So it’s—and I relate to this so much—it’s almost like there is an addiction to binary thinking, when in reality it’s like you were describing depression, it’s just much more fluid and kind of nuanced and it doesn’t have to be predictive about where it’s going to and …
Greg: No, it’s—all you know is that like—all I know is right now what I have is a—I watched this documentary yesterday about James—about the making of the James Bond films, it’s fantastic. It’s on Netflix. And it’s just about—it starts with just—it starts with Ian Fleming and it goes all the way through the most recent Bond. And Ian Fleming after the war just was lost and they said this phrase that I love, and then he started working on the James Bond stuff and he knew what the mission was. He knew what he was supposed to be doing. And it’s like for me a lot of times it’s like it’s just, just—I just need to know—I don’t need for it to have a result, I just need—what am I doing? What do I like doing? You know, a lot of my career choices were made by other people recommending what I should be doing based on what I had done. You know, I talk about the book now with the idea of like once I got to Oprah, the mission had been accomplished. It didn’t need to go beyond that. But I took it beyond that because that’s what people do, they make careers out of it, and you gotta sell books, and people—girls want to know, and blah, blah, blah. But in my heart I was like, “That was perfect. It was a perfect day. I went there, I made people laugh, the point was made.” We went back a couple other times and the point was made less but I was trying to now have a career and that felt disingenuous but I didn’t know what to do. But it’s that thing of like knowing what the mission is and knowing what you want to accomplish and a lot of times if you know what the mission is, but everybody else thinks it’s something else, sometimes people are disappointed in you and you go, “I know, but that’s not where I’m going. And I’m sorry about that. But that’s just not what I do. It’s what I did, it’s not what I do. I don’t want to do that actually, now that I have clarity I know exactly what I want to do and what I don’t want to do and how I want to do it. And I’m open to things for sure but I don’t want to do things based out of fear or preconceived ideas of who I was.”
Paul: Or strictly based on money, which I would imagine would be a difficult thing to do when you’ve got a mortgage and a wife and two kids. I would think for most people they would say, “Well, fuck, what world are you living in? You know, money has got to be the most important decision but …”
Greg: I don’t think anything of any value will follow if I go down that path. Trust me, I don’t know how to make money artificially; I’m not that good. Not good enough to go, “I could’ve written a million books.” I couldn’t. I could barely write the three we wrote. I don’t even like writing scripts. I was—people think I write scripts because I worked on Sex and the City, but I didn’t write on Sex and the City. So I don’t have that pedigree that everyone—that my manager was able to sell to everybody to get me deals to write things that never got made. It’s not my passion. So I’ve said to my wife, I’m like, “Look, let me follow my passion for a year. One year. 365 days. And I’ll film it. And then we’ll know how it went. And I’ll make a documentary about it. Let me for one year, while we’re in this spot which we can’t get out of, let me see if that doesn’t take us somewhere interesting. Because I don’t know what else to do.” But I know that when I’m living in the truth or I’m on my mission, I can already feel it, I feel myself moving forward. I can already feel something happening. Not financially, not necessarily, but I definitely feel like doors are opening, people are interested, you know, people are welcoming and, you know.
Paul: How do you know when you’re listening to your kind of intuitive gut, the voice of your higher self, and when you’re listening to your ego?
Greg: Well that’s what I think is—that’s what I think the Lexapro has done a lot about. The ego’s just—it sounds false. I know exactly what it sounds like, just rule it out. You know, I just do what I can feel in my chest. And what I’m able to do creatively, like I can sit down with a guitar and I can come up with stuff. And I can sit down with Angelo, my partner who I make t-shirts with, and we have our little t-shirt company, and we can think of a million ideas. And stuff is coming. And I can also get out there and do the work. I find myself screaming or, you know, curing shirts or folding stuff or putting stuff in boxes and just being—just working, and I’m like, “This feels right, man. People like this.” You know, I’ve turned a lot of scripts in that just died on the table and this feels like people are interested. So I guess it’s—I guess it’s just going with what’s in your heart. I mean that’s the thing we’re doing, the really corny thing that people say when they win awards, it’s like I just followed what was in my heart. You know, and that’s, you know, like it is a tough thing to say to your kids, “Look, I’m gonna follow my heart guys so maybe no more private school.” I don’t know. We’ll see what happens, I don’t know. But at the same time I can’t imagine leaving the planet and going, “Yeah I didn’t try because I was afraid.”
Paul: And you know the bottom line too I think when it comes too—and I could be wrong because I’m not a parent, but the vibe that you have when you’re living through your heart radiates an energy that your kids are gonna dig more than the energy that you’re gonna radiate when you’re slaving away at a script that you don’t believe in because you’re afraid to tell your agent, “I really don’t like show business.”
Greg: Well it’s so funny because my agent will call—my manager will call me and we have the best conversations now. But he’s tripped out because I used to just be so furious with him and then he’ll call up and go, “You know, we got a gig in Pittsburgh.” And I was like, “Ok. Cool.” And he goes, “I don’t know what else—I mean if you were writing…” I go, “You know what dude? The band raised the money, we’re gonna go in the studio in March. I’ve shot, you know, x amount of hours worth of the documentary. We did shows in New York. I’m fine. I’m good. How are you?” Like I don’t—you know, like he feels like he should now be—I think he feels—before I was like, “Why don’t I have a career?! Can’t I host something?” You know, just shouting at him, you know. And now I just, you know, now I don’t have anything to tell him until I have something to tell him. I say, “I really want to make this movie and I want you to help me do that. If you can help me find someone to finance the movie, that’s what I want to do. But that’s what I’m doing. I’m gonna shoot it, with or without you or it.”
Paul: You know the other thing that I’ve discovered is when you’re making decisions from your heart and not your ego, there’s not a sense of panic to it. There’s a sense of peace and a sense of faith to it.
Greg: And I think then getting other people to work with you is easier because they feel comfortable around you and they’re like, “Well, he seems to know what he’s doing.” I mean that’s all people want is just a sense of like, “Well he’s got a plan. He seems like he knows what he’s doing.” You know, and, you know, the money shows up to pay the horn section, they money shows up to buy art sometimes from people to make t-shirts and stuff. And I make sure everyone gets paid and, you know, I’m always the last guy that gets paid on our things. But, you know, I think there’s a sense of like, “Well this guy sort of seems like he’s moving forward now, so I’ll jump on to that.” I’ve had a lot of people be very, very kind and generous with us when we started the Indie Go Go campaign for the Reigning Monarchs, you there were guys who were like—
Paul: The Reigning Monarchs is the name of Greg’s band.
Greg: The band. We are in instrumental surf and ska band, which even putting the onus on something like that just to succeed is ridiculous. So …
Paul: You’re looking to get into poetry to increase your income.
Greg: Well here’s the thing. I’m trying to be in a band so people will take me seriously as a poet even though the band is instrumental. But I feel like they’ll sense me in a sweater, and they’ll say, “That guy’s gotta speak rhymes into a microphone at a coffee shop.” And from there it’s straight to barista. So it’s a weird trip that I’m making to Starbucks. But I would like to—but I have found like for whatever reason, like for more than anything I’ve worked on in the last couple of years, like, the guitar company called Schecter said, “Look, we love what you guys are trying to do. Would you be interested in playing our guitars, we’d be interested in sponsoring you?” And the guys go, “Look, man, I can’t offer you any money, really, but I master records, I will master the record for you for free.” People are just like, you know, “Come play here. Come play here. My buddy will do this. I have a horn section.” You know, I went back to New York and played the Starfish Circus and this guy Glenn’s like, “I’m a jazz musician back here. Let me put a section together for you and you don’t have to pay us.” Of course I did, it wasn’t that much, $50 a guy, but so I think people get excited because they sort of like what you’re putting out there. And that they think you’re genuine and you’re—you know. And then the great surprise for me is I scraped up some money for you. I won’t take anything—I won’t let anybody work for free. I just don’t believe in it. I’m a little bit of a—you know, I do believe like that way if you screw up I can tell you to read the charts. I paid you $50, here read the charts. You know what I mean? I want to—that’s perfect, but I want this all in blue. You know, then if I pay for it I can do that.
Paul: Well dude, it sounds like you’re in a good place, you know.
Greg: Better. I was in a very bad place. I have to say, like, because I know the listenership of this show because I’m—I am in it. But it surprises me you know when He’s Just Not that Into You came out and a lot of people were, “How could somebody not know if a guy didn’t like him, it’s so simple?” It’s not simple. And that’s the same thing like with depression. Like it’s not simple. And a lot of people are afraid that—like a lot of people are under the impression that, you know, taking meds is cheating. Or it’s quitting or something like that. Whatever.
Paul: Is taking insulin cheating for diabetics?
Greg: I mean that’s the way my doctor described it. He’s like, “Look, you have an illness and this is the cure. It’s like you have diabetes. And once you’ve gotten to a place where you feel leveled off, we’ll take you off the pills if you want.”
Paul: And that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t continue to do spiritual work and exercise and try to eat healthy and talk to a therapist.
Greg: If anything, this thing allows you to do more of those things. You know the one drawback for me is it slows my metabolism down. It’s been hard to keep off weight, but I’m like, “I don’t care.” That’s the thing – I don’t care. I’m like, “You know what? I’m good-looking enough, it’ll work. It’ll be fine.” I’ll go on a hike. Like I’ll walk with the dog. I’ll try and count my calories. I don’t care anymore. Like that—living in that way where you have to be this perfect version of yourself is just a bummer. You know, forgiving yourself makes it easier to like go on a diet because you’re doing it kind of for fun, like can I get this ten pounds off? Just get ten. Don’t do 35, just take off 10. Just don’t make it such a big deal and also there’s no answer at the end of 35 pounds either.
Paul: Right, like now I’m loveable.
Greg: Right, exactly.
Paul: Now I’m ok.
Greg: Right. It’s actually better for me to try and be loveable and likeable, like, you know, or a little overweight than it is to try and that that’s gonna—because then you have this other—well no, now I got the weight. Then I’ll get my hair cut right, then I’ll find the right clothes, you know there’s always this other thing.
Paul: It’s never ending.
Greg: It’s never ending.
Paul: I want to express to the listeners the joy of letting yourself go physically. It has been—
Greg: Well, I’ll tell you. Dave Anthony’s done it and he is really, he’s really …. I mean Brian Posehn, I mean these guys have really let themselves go and it feels good. Patton Oswalt is a perfect specimen of just letting it out. Have a scotch at noon. It doesn’t matter. The point is you’re living. Boy I threw all of those guys under the bus there. All my friends.
Paul: You notice I threw myself under the bus, but you throw your friends under the bus.
Greg: I love that.
Paul: That’s like a really, really cheap name check.
Greg: It was a good one though, right?
Paul: It was good. It was good.
Greg: Those where good names.
Paul: Well dude, I love you man. And I’m so happy to see that you’re in a good place. You’re—I think you’re one of the best podcasters out there, you and Dave do something that nobody else does. There is no other show like yours and it always makes me laugh out loud. I have a really hard time laughing to begin with, but you guys literally make me laugh out loud.
Greg: Oh, that’s nice.
Paul: And it’s—
Greg: Thank you man, and I love your podcast. I love what you’re doing and I think it’s really important. I think it’s really important because you’re coming at it in a way that is so gettable and so useful. And so the fact that you do it in this medium and that you’re a stellar comedian and a really good, open dude, I think, you know, that’s—that was part of the success of what He’s Just Not that Into You was on some level, was that it was written by TV writers who were just people who just had bad experiences and were sharing them at a group level, you know, on some—in some way. And I think, you know, that’s sort of the great thing about podcasting too, is being able to find these, you know. And I’m like you; I don’t listen to them anymore. I don’t watch standup. I never actually, with the exception of music, nowadays I find myself less doing the craft I’m involved in. Because I’d much rather do something else. And I don’t want to borrow anything.
Paul: And I think there’s something inherent in the podcasting medium that it’s antiauthoritarian. There’s—I think we’ve been brow-beaten by experts enough in mainstream media that we’re like, “You know what? Go take your fucking degree and your pompous attitude and go buy an island and give me a break.
Greg: Yeah, totally, because I also think that like this is the wave of the future and you are also—I heard Billy Corrigan talking on a podcast from the Smashing Pumpkins and he was talking about you have to look at your—we have to look at it all differently now. There’s gonna be less money for everybody but people are going to have little groups that they are a part of and belong to and are responsible for. And creating content for those groups of people. They’ll be small groups but they’ll be groups that will stay with you for a long time if the content is good and if you connect with them in the right way. And I think there really is—because I think people always are trying to be a part of a community. Anything that you like you wanna be able to say, “Well, we’re in the group of people that like Portlandia.” You know, and that makes you feel good or whatever it is. Or Downton Abbey or whatever it is. And so I think the Smashing Pumpkins and I think people like to be in a group. And then you can actually reach out and kind of connect with your artists and you can find the other people really quickly. In podcasting you can find them very quickly, because this an incredibly active community. And I’ve said this before – our people are just outstandingly broken.
Paul: They are—the way that they connect to each other is a beautiful thing to see. Just the community that you guys have created and it gives them something to bond over. You know, it’s—obviously your show just in and of itself is entertaining as hell and everything, but it’s got this really cool added thing of—it’s this community where people know each other and they’ll riff on something that you guys said and all of the sudden there will be 80 comments where everybody’s building on a riff that you guys started in your podcast. And it’s—I think that’s all people really want is to feel a part of something bigger than themselves.
Greg: Totally. And they also embraced—they completely embraced you, they embr—I mean, you know, Patton didn’t need embracing, but some of the people that have come on our show that they, you know—I talk for a long time about my favorite comedian Jeff Bolt who lives in San Francisco and is very little defined and then he came on our live podcast and when he came out the crowd gave him the kind of cheer that he deserved because he’d been spoken of so reverently on our podcast. So when he came out, they were like, “Yes!!” before he even started. And it made me so proud of them for being so cool to him.
Paul: Yeah that’s so beautiful.
Greg: All my friends knew, and I told you this guy was great. When he came out, you gave him a hero’s welcome. And they did the same thing to my dad when my dad appeared on a live event, they gave him a standing ovation, like to me it’s like you really give a shit. Like this isn’t just some—you know, you aren’t just being cute, you’re being loving. You’re actually saying, “Hey, Greg’s already said you’re great. So we’re in.”
Paul: And do you think some of that is because you’ve laid yourself bare on your podcast?
Greg: Yep. Same as yours. That’s why they connect, yes. Totally, because I think that’s your—that’s been the only card I’ve ever been able to play in my standup, is my truth, because I don’t—God, it’s so funny. I just wanted to be weird when I started and I just didn’t—that’s what Jeff Bolt was like, just incredibly weird. I watched Rory Scovel the other night and I was fascinated by how weird and interesting he is. And that’s the kind of comic I wanted to be, it’s just not who I am. I have to come from this really, like, this just happened and I’m all messed up about it kind of place. And that’s what I do. So that’s why the podcast was like perfect for me because I’m like—and I don’t have to be funny the whole time and I have this buddy who I just have to make laugh. And this audience of one who gets a kick out of me. I mean Dave’s biggest—the nicest thing he does for me is show up and laugh at me once a week and I feel validated, you know?
Paul: Right on buddy. Do you wanna—?
Greg: I will kill him though at some point. That’s the weird thing.
Paul: Do you want to go out with any fears or loves? Did you prep or do you wanna riff on some freeform?
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: All right. Let’s start with some fears. Let’s go back and forth.
Greg: Ok. I’m afraid the pills will stop working.
Paul: Oh my God, I have that one too. I’m afraid that I’m so much less authentic than I think I am and everybody else can sense it but I can’t.
Greg: Well that’s not real. I’m afraid that the ground I’ve made back up with my wife I’ll lose.
Paul: I’m afraid that I think that I’m an easy person to be around but I really just don’t have any idea how difficult I can be around—that I’m unbearable sometimes and don’t really know it.
Greg: I have that same fear. I’m also afraid that my children will die.
Paul: I’m afraid of my pubic hair turning grey.
Greg: I’m afraid people will know I diet.
Paul: I’m afraid that I’m gonna be that guy on the hockey team that everybody goes, “Oh, that old fuck showed up. Now there’s no way we’re gonna win. He’s so slow.”
Greg: I’m afraid that at one point everyone in my band will go, “Dude, you just can’t play. Like this is sweet, thanks for the gloves. Thanks for the fingerless gloves, bro. You can’t play.”
Paul: I’m afraid that I am, if my podcast gets more popular, I’m gonna start to have sycophants that tell me things about myself that aren’t true and I’m gonna believe them then all of the sudden one day I’m gonna look back and go, “Oh my God I’ve become this phony fucking intolerable person.”
Greg: I’m afraid that Dave’s comedy album will become a massive success and that we will gain an audience of people that only like him and then I’ll have to read shitty, fucking ats on Twitter.
Paul: Let’s go to loves.
Greg: Ok. You go first because I haven’t done loves.
Paul: I love how you are stylish. You make it work and it’s just you. It is you. It’s—like I couldn’t wear it because I don’t have the confidence to wear style. But you wear it with confidence and it looks good on you. And I love the—like whenever I see you walking up, I’m always—I’m like, “Why can’t I dress like that?” And then I think, “Because I don’t know how to dress like that. I just go, ‘Which t-shirt is it today?’”
Greg: I do like that t-shirt though.
Paul: This is the shoulder emblem of the Chicago Blackhawks.
Greg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. But it’s embroidered on there.
Paul: And I know it sounded like that was me just blowing smoke up your ass.
Greg: No, no, no. I love that there’s podcasting. I love that there’s—I mean, what the fuck would you and I be doing this afternoon, honestly, if this thing wasn’t around. Because on some level this has resurrected out of whatever my career became, this medium saved pieces of it and helped me put it back together, and on some levels ended up saving my life in a very real way, genuinely. And I think it’s such an incredibly cool—when I listen to any of our—when I see any of our peer group, and everybody knows who they are because they’re all the hotshots in this medium, except Adam Carolla, they—because he was from radio—they—I’m happy. I’m happy for Marc Maron. I’m happy for Jimmy Pardo. I’m happy for younger guys like Pete Holmes, like genuinely happy that this is a thing that exists that no one can fuck with, you know? You don’t have to love everyone’s podcast to do it, but I just think that this is such an incredible medium and it was needed because the people that listen to these things are not—they are their own breed of fan. They are not other—does that make sense?
Paul: It does. It’s more democratic than the constitution to me. It’s so fucking democratic, that’s what I love about the podcasting. Here’s a weird love: I love showing a hockey injury to somebody and having them marvel at how nasty it is.
Greg: Oh that’s good, yeah.
Paul: You want to see one?
Greg: Let’s do it.
Paul: This happened a month ago. I took a slap shot.
Greg: Oh God.
Paul: I don’t know if you can see it.
Greg: Yeah right there.
Paul: Feel it.
Greg: What did that feel like when it happened?
Paul: The most pain I’ve ever felt in my life.
Greg: Oh my God. Did you think it’d just gone clean through you?
Paul: I wasn’t sure if it was broken or not but it hurt so badly the only thing I could do was to limp over to the guy that took the shot and elbow him in the face off his skates.
Greg: Really?
Paul: Yeah. And immediately I bent down and helped pick him up and I said, “I’m sorry I did that. Your slap shot hurt me so much.” And he kind of laughed. And when I took my shin pad—
Greg: I wish you’d been at the deli with me.
Paul: And when I took my shin pad off at the end of the night—and these are guys that have been playing hockey for thirty-forty years, you know, and they’ll see like, you know, a guy, you know, lose part of his tooth and stuff—and they looked at my leg and they were like, “Oh, fuck.” And part of me likes that because it makes me feel tough.
Greg: No, I split my head open two days after Christmas showing my daughter how to skateboard. I couldn’t—I got thrown off the board so quickly, I couldn’t put my hands down, I split the top of my head open. What had happened was my daughter wouldn’t skateboard in the street and my wife and I were both like, “Just get!” and she was wrapped up like Tony Hawk, she’s on the sidewalk running into people’s ankles, she was you know, hitting trees and stuff. I’m like, “Just come on the street it’s easy. How hard is it?” I push off, the next thing I know I’m laying on the ground, my daughter is screaming, true screaming, she’s ten, Amiira is trying so hard not to laugh, there’s a puddle of blood on the ground, and Mighty, my littlest one, I also hurt myself, also I hurt my finger, I also got a skateboard injury, and I was like, “Oh my God.” But I got up and we went to the hospital together and I got my head glued and the girls stayed at home with Angela, who was living at the house, and my wife and I had maybe one of the best afternoons we’ve ever had, it was so fun. And I felt really like, “Fuck yeah, look at my head. I cracked it open skateboarding, bitch.” At just a few months shy of fifty I was on the deck, took it in the—I lost—I got in a fight with my street and lost. And I’m totally good with that, bro. There was a certain pride in that.
Paul: My next love is I love listening to you tell a story. Nobody can tell a story like you, man. Nobody.
Greg: I love that we acted together. And even though I’ve not seen it, that was one of the—that was also one of the best days of last year was when you—and God damn it that character makes me laugh. That whole—that whole—with the—the whole thing. What do you call it?
Paul: Popping candy.
Greg: Popping candy! God damn it was that fun! And Janet Varney.
Paul: Yeah. And Grey DeLisle. It was a lot of fun.
Greg: It was a lot of fun.
Paul: I don’t think that will ever air. I don’t know—I don’t know why that …
Greg: Let’s go back and put it up somewhere.
Paul: I don’t know.
Greg: Get it back, I’m starting to channel.
Paul: All right.
Greg: I’m starting a channel called Sweater Vision. And we’re doing pieces of the documentary from The Reigning Monarchs.
Paul: Oh seriously?
Greg: Yeah. Why not have your own network?
Paul: When you said Sweater Vision I thought it was a joke.
Greg: No. Sweater Vision is what we’re calling it because that’s sort of my little moniker thing. But then it will be updates on The Reigning Monarchs, some Walking the Room stuff I’m gonna do with Dave, some Estoy merchandise, just the t-shirts and stuff. If nothing happens with your thing, let’s take it and put it up and pimp it and make a t-shirt.
Paul: Estoy. E-S-T-O-Y merchandise is your t-shirt and clothing company. Is there a website for it?
Greg: It’s just estoymerchandise.com. And just go and you’ll find it and it’s got all the Walking the Room, Reigning Monarchs, and Dave Anthony and now Greg Proops. You know, we’re just taking on people.
Paul: I’m looking to do some new and different t-shirts so we should hook up. You’re my bitch.
Greg: I’m your bitch. I love a good t-shirt. Love the t-shirt. Solid one.
Paul: Well I think that’s a natural place for me to kick you out my front door.
Greg: You got to. I think we were very natural.
Paul: Dude, I love you.
Greg: I love you too, buddy.
Paul: Thank you so much for sharing your life with not only with me but with listeners.
Greg: I like your listeners. They’re good people. Well there’s one guy I don’t like that much. Me. Good night everyone.
Paul: I love that man. Many thanks to Greg Behrendt. What do I want to say before I take it out with some surveys? I want to remind you that there’s a couple of different ways to support the podcast if you feel so inclined. You can go to the website, mentalpod.com, and support us financially by making either a one time PayPal donation or my favorite, a recurring monthly donation. You can sign up for as little as $5 a month. You only have to sign up once and as long as your credit card doesn’t expire you don’t have to do anything. It just takes the money out and I really appreciate those of you who have signed up to do that because it’s getting me closer to my dream of being able to support myself doing this podcast. You can support us financially by shopping at Amazon through our search portal. It’s on our homepage about halfway down on the right hand side. And you can also support us by going to iTunes and giving us a good rating. That boosts our ranking, brings more people to the show. And you can support us by spreading the word on social media. I want to thank those of you that have stepped up to be transcribers as well. If you want to transcribe an episode, shoot me an email at mentalpod@gmail.com and I’ll shoot you a—I’ll just shoot you. Shoot you right in the face. I’ll shoot you back a document that has some formatting notes and just be forewarned it takes an average typist about a full day to transcribe an episode. And I know we’ve got some listeners that have signed up for it and didn’t know what they were getting into and are sitting there silently in shame not doing any transcribing. That’s ok. You can’t yell at volunteers. Well, you can, actually. But it wouldn’t be nice.
Let’s get to some fucking surveys. How about that? As I told you before, I like doing a packet of surveys. This is three surveys filled out by a guy who calls himself J Dub. And he is straight. He’s in his 30’s. He was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. And this is from the babysitter survey. He says, “My babysitter was in high school. I was maybe five, six, or seven. We played doctor and examined each other’s genitals.” “Did you ever tell anyone?” He writes, “No, I didn’t tell anyone nor do I think it has had any effect on me.” “Remembering these feelings, what feelings come up?” He says, “I feel nothing about this.” “Do you feel any damage was done?” “Later in life she came out as a lesbian. It was the early ‘80’s and I think maybe she was experimenting in a very fucked up way to see if she had any desire for males.” You know, from my understanding of age-inappropriate stuff or just outright molestation is it really doesn’t have anything to do with sex; it’s really about power and control. “If you are a parent, has your experience influenced how you view children being babysat?” He writes, “Yes, I worry about my son being babysat.”
This is from his Shame and Secrets survey. “Ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” “Yes and I never reported it.” “Deepest, darkest thoughts?” “I think about abusing women. Slapping them, choking them, making them cry. Making them do sexual acts they hate. Peeing on them. I’m also attracted to girls in their young teenage years – 14 to 15 age range.” “What are your deepest, darkest secrets?” “I have cheated on my wife and slept with married women. My wife doesn’t enjoy sex anymore and has told me that I don’t turn her on. I think I have done these things to fill a psychological and physical need.” “Sexual fantasies most powerful to you?” “My fantasies involve forcing women to do things they don’t want to do, so technically it’s rape. Holding them down while I ass fuck them, slapping them, coming on their faces, calling them names, pissing on them, degrading them to the point of tears.” “Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend?” He writes, “No. The last time I shared a fantasy with my wife (it wasn’t one of the ones I listed above), she got pissed because it wasn’t what she wanted to hear. She didn’t speak to me for three days.” “Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” He writes, “Anger towards women, my wife specifically.” You know maybe that stuff did affect you. Because it sounds like there’s anger there towards women. I mean, I’m gonna preface it with what I always say – I’m no psychologist but I am a pretty good skateboarder. You know, even just to talk about the stuff that’s going on with your wife, but there are very few people I know that were touched as kids that it didn’t affect them, but a lot of people, it takes them a long time cuz you shove it down so deep to not think about that.
Then this is from his Happy Moments survey. His happy moments are, he writes, “My happiest moments are when I’m playing with my son. I feel he is the reason I was placed on this earth.” It would be cool if you could feel that way about yourself. That’s so hard though. I think when somebody exploits us it’s so hard for us to feel good about ourselves, because it’s like, “Well how can that jive with what happened to me? How could somebody do that to me if I’m worthy and I’m lovable?”
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Fat Amy. So you know there’s gonna be a lot of lovely self-esteem in this one. She’s bi, she’s in her 20’s, was raised in an environment that’s pretty dysfunctional. “Ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts as sexual abuse. I think my grandfather grabbed my breast once but what was more frightening was when he grabbed my hand and guided it to his shorts.” Oh Jesus. “It never made it there because I managed to break free and run away so nothing really happened. I’m not sure what would have happened or what his reasoning was. Maybe he just had to use the bathroom.” That doesn’t make any sense to me. “He couldn’t really talk and was mostly infirm. It could have been a misunderstanding.” Oh, I don’t know that he was infirm. “Deepest, darkest thoughts?” “Suicide. Leaving my boyfriend or cheating on him.” “Deepest, darkest secrets?” “I kissed my little sister once on the lips while she was asleep. I wanted to see what it was like. She woke up and was so angry at me that I’ve been ashamed of it ever since.” “Sexual fantasies most powerful to you?” “Fantasies where I don’t have control and I’m completely destroyed or violated. Not just rape but snuff. Cannibalism, alien abduction, breeding, whatever.” “Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend?” “I have. I’m not ashamed of my fantasies when talking to most people.” That’s awesome. “Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” She writes, “Mostly frustration because I can’t be turned on by normal sex or the act of sex. I have to think about these things to be aroused.” Well I know there’s a lot of people that have to think about stuff that brings them shame or they feel is like morally you know, dicey and so you’re not alone. You’re not alone in that, about having a fantasy that… That would be really tough to have it be somebody that has a fantasy about being snuffed out, because you could never enjoy your fantasy. Oh I just had waves of self-hatred coming through me right now.
This is from the Happy Moments survey, I’m just gonna break it up. A little happiness in the midst of the darkness. This is filled out by Tarina. She’s in her 40’s. And one of her happy moments, “I used to live in a little cottage on Lake Michigan that had a small, private beach. The first summer there I was standing down at the water’s edge, facing the bluff, waiting for the rest of the group to come down. I sunk my toes into the warm sand and all at once I felt the wind pick up with all my senses. As the scent of recently mowed grass reached me, I heard the lapping of waves intensify. I watched as the leaves started twirling down from the trees, as the breeze cooled the warmth of the sun on my skin, I felt as though time stopped. I embraced the moment of feeling completely alive and was determined to burn it into my memory. And have.” That’s beautiful. Thank you for that.
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey filled out by a guy who calls himself Accident Boy. He’s in his 30’s, he’s straight, was raised in an environment that was pretty dysfunctional. He writes, “Very stable and ‘normal’ till I was 13, when my mom had a mental break and was diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder. After that I was left to raise my mentally handicapped sister, as my dad’s focus was on keeping my mom alive and keeping us fed.” “Ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts as sexual abuse. My older female cousin touched me and made me touch her. An 18-year-old male teenager tried to force me to have oral sex.” “Deepest, darkest thoughts?” “Killing the men and women that sexually and physically abused my mother from the ages of nine months to eighteen years old. Make them suffer for making my mom have multiple personality disorder and putting our family through years of hell as a result.” “Deepest, darkest secrets?” “I used to self-harm by way of being a daredevil. I liked the thought of dying while doing one of these stunts so it would be nobody’s fault. When I would live through it, I would get attention and that’s the only times as a teenager that I felt loved.” It breaks my heart. “Sexual fantasies most powerful to you?” “Lesbian or solo female sex turns me on.” Add me to that list! “Specifically because of the sexual abuse I suffered from an older teenaged male. I cannot watch porn that involves men. The last time I tried to watch straight porn, I cried for an hour.” “Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend?” He writes, “I have told my wife and she understands.” “Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” He writes, “I definitely don’t feel normal because of it. Sometimes it causes me to be depressed.” You know, I never thought until I read his survey, I’d never thought for the longest time I couldn’t look at males in porn either. I really would only watch porn that just involved the women. And it never occurred to me because I was also molested by a teenaged guy, he was a neighbor, and it never occurred to me that that might have been why seeing an erect penis was so—I just always thought that because I didn’t like cock. I learn so much from reading these. It’s amazing the stuff it brings up sometimes.
This is from the Body Shame survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Kona Ray. She’s in her 20’s. “What do you like or dislike about your body and why?” “When I’m at my worst, I dislike everything about my body. I hate the stretch marks on my thighs, ass, and stomach, which I got when I was a preteen. I think they are brutally unsexy. I hate my dry skin in the winter and oily skin in the summer. I hate my big feet, my rough hands, and every hair on my eyebrows. I hate my crooked teeth and my small boobs and my fat midsection. But on the good days, like today, I accept all of those things. And I love the crooked middle toe on my left foot because it’s unique. I love the scars I have from various accidents and surgeries because they remind me and others what a survivor I am. I love my dark brown hair and eyes, and my smile, and my freckles. On the best days I even love my figure and tell myself that I’m the kind of woman a classical painter would want as a model. Sometimes on the good days I find myself checking myself out in the mirror and it makes me laugh, but it feels amazing.” That’s beautiful.
This is from the Babysitter survey filled out by a woman who calls herself CJO. She is straight. She’s in her 20’s, was raised in an environment that was pretty dysfunctional. “Ever been the victim of sexual abuse outside of the events described here?” She writes, “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts. My cousin and I played house one day and he was grabbing me because ‘that’s what mommies and daddies do so don’t be afraid.’ But it wasn’t abuse, it was innocent play.” Let’s see… “He was my sister’s boyfriend. He would sometimes come over if everyone was at work to watch me. He was 23 and I was 13. For some reason, it didn’t affect me at all, I just wanted to sit closer to him and talk to him. I loved when he said my name and it made me jittery inside. I always pretended he was my boyfriend. I always played with his hair or rubbed his back.” She—I guess nothing happened but she says, “I was babysat and felt a little something sexual. Awkwardness that made me want to be closer to him. It made me want to love him. Nothing really happened. One day he held my hand while we were watching a movie, but I don’t believe it was to send a sexual vibe at all. It has affected me because I tend to lean towards older guys more than I should to the guys my age.” “Remembering back, what feelings come up?” “As I look back on these days, it makes me want to tell him how much I care and how much I want him. I want to tell him that I long for him to be my babysitter again, but this time I pull the move.” She doesn’t feel that any damage was done. Well, it doesn’t sound like anything happened, but boy do I relate to that feeling. You know, I remember being like a ten- or eleven-year-old kid and just being so in love with the girls that were like four or five years older than me, and just a combination of like wanting to see them naked and have them care for me. That’s such a powerful thing and I would imagine for that babysitter, if they’d been traumatized, that has got to be such a tempting thing for them to take advantage of, because that kid seems to want to have some type of connection. Not all kids, obviously, but those kids that have that longing in them that they don’t really understand. And I think that’s why I hear so often about that happening with babysitters. That’s why I created the survey.
This is an email I got from a listener named Chad and I just—this just made me smile so I wanted to read it to you. “I introduced my loves as a game during family dinner. I was afraid this would turn out awkward and drop off into uncomfortable silence. And it took a little encouragement to get it started. The following day my boys told me they were looking forward to dinner so they talk about new things they thought of that they love. This is now a part of our family dinner discussion every night and will likely become a family tradition for generations to come.” That made me fucking smile.
And I’m gonna take it out with a Happy Moment filled out by a listener named Melissa who is in her 30’s. And her happy moment, she writes, “I love owls more than anything else in the whole wide world, especially baby owls. There’s nothing cuter than a tiny puffball with huge eyes. One day my coworker instant messaged me and told me she wasn’t coming into work because she found a baby owl in the park. I asked if I could come see it and she said yes. It was everything I had imagined and more. He was so soft to the touch, and I rubbed his feathery little head against my cheek. I couldn’t believe I was actually holding a real live baby owl. If you held him in your hand and laid him on his back, he’d fall asleep and his tiny little feet with sharp claws would uncurl. My friend gave me some raw hamburger to feed him, and he very gently ate it from my hand. The best moment was when I tickled his tummy. Yes, I even said tickle. He gasped, looked down, and puffed all the feathers on his chest outward. That had to have been the cutest thing I have ever seen. I was so happy; I didn’t want that moment to end. I was in a miserable marriage at the time, and for that relatively short moment in time, I was genuinely happy. I actually have pictures of me with the owl, and it’s the happiest I’ve ever seen myself in a picture.” Thank you for that, Melissa.
And thank you guys for continuing to help me build this community and, yeah, I just feel a lot of gratitude. And if you’re out there and you’re feeling stuck, you’re not alone. There is hope. And thanks for listening.
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