The second installment of a six part series with Clinical PhD Guy Winch. This one explores how to deal with rejection. Guy Winch is the author of the book Emotional First Aid
Episode notes:
Buy Guy's book Emotional First Aid
Episode Transcript:
Welcome to the mini episode number one sixty one. Our topic is rejection, and our guest is Guy Winch, PhD. He is a clinical psychologist and has a book out called Emotional First Aid and he’s going to share some tips with us.
First, I want to read a couple of surveys that deal with either self-rejection or rejection by other people. This first one is from the ‘Body Shame’ survey, filled out by transgendered female to male who calls himself Cade, and Cade writes,
I hate my breasts. They are disgusting and I want them gone. If I could just cut them off myself like removing a tag on a new sure I would. I feel awful about it but sometimes I think it would be okay if I got breast cancer because then I would have a reason to get rid of them. I was sexually abused by my dad and he always made a big deal out of them, constantly trying to see them and touch them. I always felt like a guy in the wrong body, but the main reason I wanted transition is so my dad doesn't find me attractive anymore.
That is intense. I'm sending you a big hug.
This it is from the ‘Shame and Secrets’ survey, filled out by a guy who calls himself Scott. He is straight, he's thirty two years old, raised in a stable and safe environment. Never been sexually abused, but has been emotionally abused. My ex wife ignored me and belittled my presence to the point that I sometimes truly wondered if I even existed anymore. I would have these weird moments where - spoiler alert - I felt like Bruce Willis’ character in The Sixth Sense, and I was almost certain that I had died and I just didn't know it yet. The harder I fought for her attention, the more she pushed me away, which led to arguments of rather epic proportions, often culminating in her hitting me, kicking me, throwing something at me, slamming doors on me etcetera.
Any positive experiences with your abusers: Absolutely. She was my wife for nearly a decade. I have a treasure trove of wonderful memories about her. It's hard for me sometimes, to think about her abuse and neglect realistically, because it doesn't seem possible that this woman who stole my heart and loved me so beautifully, could be the same one who once broke my hand, caused me to need stitches on more than one occasion, and completely destroyed my sense of self-worth. I know better, but I can't help but wonder if I'm exaggerating her behaviors, or even flat out making things up.
Deepest darkest thoughts: I sometimes wish my ex-wife would find a horribly abusive man and marry him so he can beat and belittle and abuse her, and when she does, I want to come around and watch, and tell her that she deserves it.
Deepest darkest secrets: I think I pretty much covered it, but I lived as an abused husband for a number of years. My petite, pretty, charming wife beat the shit outta me on a regular basis and I never said a fucking word to anyone about it.
Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: Pretty vanilla, on this issue. I just want a partner who wants me, cares about me, and lets me know that they are choosing me and not just tolerating me. And that is actually one of the most normal things I have. I think.
What, if anything, would you like to say to someone that you haven't been able to: To tell my ex-wife that she was wrong about me. I want her to know that she mistreated me and she hurt me, and she damaged me in a lot of ways. I’d like to tell her that I have value and she fucked up when she lost me.
What if anything you wish for: I just wanna be happy again, and to not wish that every day was the last one.
Have you shared these things with others: I’ve shared them with my therapist. She's very supportive and we’re making progress. I’ve tried to share them with friends but I don't anymore. At some point it just feels like I'm playing the ‘poor me’ card, and I don't much care for the sensation of pathetic-ness that it stirs in me. If I get really deep and try to talk about my depression or anger, I think it scares them.
How do you feel after reading this down: Like a whiny little bitch. Half joking, half serious.
Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences: If you are being mistreated or minimized, get the fuck out. There is a whole world out there, and it's full of people who will give a shit about you.
(P) Thank you for that, Scott.
This is again, from the Shame and secrets survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Cory. She is straight, she's nineteen, she was raised in a stable and safe environment. Never been the victim of sexual abuse. Stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts. I had strong feelings for another man while I was in a relationship with my boyfriend. The other man had feelings for me as well. He was one of my best friends, so I spent a good amount of time with him. I didn't have any intentions of cheating on my boyfriend. I felt I had self-control, and even though I had feelings for the man, I knew that I wouldn’t try anything. However, he tried stuff with me, and we had sex even though I begged him to stop. He kept asking me if he should stop or if I wanted him to stop. This question still confuses me because it should not matter if I wanted it or not, I was telling him to stop.
(P) And what a great way to articulate that, because I think a lot of people that were date raped, don't know what the “rules or boundaries” are, where it crosses into that, and there are certainly grey areas, but that doesn't sound like one of them. That sounds like there was a clear boundary that he thought he could manipulate you into crossing.
Ever been physically or emotionally abused: I’ve been emotionally abused. Growing up I went to a very small school. I graduated with a class of thirty three people, so many of us had been there since kindergarten. In my class, I was picked on. My one closest friend would constantly go around making fun of me, and telling everyone about my personal life behind my back. By high school, I had figured out it was her doing it, but I couldn't break ties with her because whenever I would try, she would do everything in her power to guilt trip me. Anyway, many people my class would constantly pick on me. In seventh grade, I'd become fascinated with Gothic style, and I would often dress in black. This prompted to people in my class to tell me to “go cut myself” whenever I was in a negative mood. I would be told this almost daily, until my sophomore year, when a classmate said it to me, and I finally stood up and started yelling at him for it. I didn't practice in self-injury prior to being told to go cut myself, but after a few months of that I broke down, crying my eyes out, alone in my bedroom, sitting next to my mirror, and I decided that if that's what they wanted, if they wanted me to cut myself, then I would. It became a habit, and I would do it in the most painful areas. I figured that since it seemed like no one wanted me around, then I must be a bad person, that something must be wrong with me and I deserve as much punishment as I could get. I would cut the arches of my feet so it would hurt whenever I walked. In the crease where my arm bends, so whenever I moved I could feel pain. On top of being told to cut myself, my classmates would also make fun of my weight. I’ve never had a flat sexy stomach, but I've never been overweight either. Always just been the status where I could stand to lose a few pounds. Regardless, my classmates would often make fat joke towards me. Maybe it was because I would just laugh when people made fun of me, as defense, that they figured it was ok. Sometimes they would moo at me, insinuating that I was a cow. I've only been out of high school for a couple years now, but I have recently been remembering a lot of the things I use to be me made fun of for. I put the fact that I was often called fat by my peers in a box in my mind and left it there. But people recently questioning my insecurities have opened the box up. I'm constantly worried about my weight, and yes, I know a lot of women are, but I can never take any compliments on it. My boyfriend likes to be cute and stare at my stomach like it is a sexy part of me, and it infuriates me every time. It's not sexy part of me. It's an ugly part of me that I can never get rid of, even though I've been trying for a long time.
(P) You know, my thought on that is, until you can feel that it's a sexy part on you, or at the very least an ok part on you, can't you accept that it's a sexy part to him? It doesn't have to be – it’s like one person can like a color, and another person can like a different color.
Any positive experiences with your abusers: No. I left that town the day I graduated and I am immensely thankful that I only talk to a couple people from my graduating class. The main people that made fun of me are people I would not mind never seen again.
Darkest thoughts: Commonly, when I'm driving, I feel urges to drive off a bridge sometimes. Sometimes I also fantasize that my boyfriend has died. I love him, but there are some things that make me want to leave the relationship, but I'm too scared to. If he died in some crazy freak accident, I’d be forced to be alone.
Darkest secrets: I don't know that I have many dark deep secrets. I do know that I'm currently studying psychology in hopes to one day have a PhD in this subject. I tell people that I'm going into the field to help others which is partially true, but I'm also doing it because I know there's something wrong with me, but because I'm crazy stubborn I refuse to see a therapist. Because when I was younger and started cutting myself, I asked my mother if I could see a therapist because I knew there was something wrong with me. She told me no, because it would “make our family look bad.”
(P) Oh my god does that break my heart.
So deep down, I'm hoping that by getting a really good grasp on the human mind, I’d be able to make myself ok. Deep down I also know that's not really how it works, but it's one of the things I'm holding onto.
(P) I don't think the sexual fantasies matter, I’m going to skip over that.
What, if anything, would you like to say to someone that you haven’t been able to: I would like to ask my boyfriend why he refuses to fuck me. My boyfriend and I have been together for three years, and in the past year we've had sex once. This has taken a horrible toll on my self-esteem and confidence. I've been able to ask him many times before, but it still hasn't been fixed. The last time I asked, he told me it was because I was “boring in bed” which I could understand. He was my first, and I am a bit nervous when it comes to anything sexual because I'm terrified of making a wrong move or doing something wrong.
(P) You know, anybody that call somebody else boring in bed is, in my opinion, is putting their shit on somebody else. Because – well, you know – if you find a person boring in bed, then fucking suggest something you'd like to do. It sounds to me like he is unavailable. He's afraid of intimacy and he's blaming it on you. And that may not even be what he's experiencing, but don't stand for that. You deserve better than that.
What if anything you wish for: For my boyfriend to wanna have sex with me. I know I could just end the relationship but I feel like that is too easy of a solution and I want to work it out and figure it out.
(P) Boy, my feeling is, you deserve physical intimacy with your partner, and unless he is working through some type of trauma and moving forward - if he's just stuck in his mind, that's how it is, you’re boring in bed, fuckin bail. Bail.
Have you shared these things with others: I’ve shared my fantasies and insecurities with my boyfriend, but he tells me that he thinks it’s ridiculous how much emphasis I put on sex and my self-esteem. To me, sex is an empowering thing, and it is passionate and makes me feel like I'm lovable and worth wanting. When I’m constantly rejected by someone I love and sexually attracted to, I automatically start trying to figure out why I'm not good enough to have sex with. It’s slowly killing me, and I can feel it breaking down my spirit, and I love him, and I don't want sex to be a reason I leave him.
(P) You know, the thought that pops into my mind is, it's almost like you've been trained, not intentionally, but trained to be around people that reject you, reject your inner life, but you stay with them. Your mom did it with you. I mean, she rejected you in a way that is just so fucking profound. You came to her hurting, and she put her family's image above your internal pain, and so it doesn't seem like a big deal for you to stay with the guy who is rejecting you in a really deep way.
How do you feel after writing these things down: It hurts a lot. I want to not care and just go on my merry fucking way, like he seems to do, but I can’t. It isn't the feeling from sex that I want, it's the intimacy that comes with it. It's the closeness and the feeling of being loved, wanted, and sexy. I wish he understood how much it hurts me. I wish I understood why he can't bring himself to even try.
(P) I'm sure he can’t understand why he can't bring himself, but you are not going to fix him. You will only have him drag you down with himself if he doesn't want to get help.
In this last survey before we get to the interview with Guy Winch, is by a guy who calls himself Bob Servo. He says male, but probably a transgender female. I say male because none of the current options would be enough for me. I have a very manly build and would frankly make an ugly and disproportionate woman. Even then, some dick surgery would not be enough. I’d require the whole package and experience growing up. I'm glad that a lot of people have been able to find themselves and make their outside like their inside. It’s just not enough for me. He is twenty nine raised in a stable and safe environment, despite the distant and unavailable father, I’ve never wanted for anything material. I wasn’t Richie Rich but it was very comfortable and I always knew there would be a roof over my head and food on my plate.
(P) I guess you know, when I ask that question, “Describe the environment you were raised in,” I guess I mean emotionally more than financially and practically.
He’s never been sexually abused, he's been emotionally abused, and not sure if he’s been physically abused. He writes: The typical ‘I wasn't the son my father wanted’ thing. He's a rich, world famous doctor who had high plans for his jock/doctor son, but it turned out to be severely depressed, anxiety ridden, shut-in nerd. Whoopsie! If it wasn't a constant stream of abuse, it was actually pretty minor and passive,
(P) And I would say, that's not minor. The absence of the boilerplate things that kids need can be every bit as traumatic and life changing as the dad that back hands you every night at the dinner table.
There were moments of verbal abuse after failures at jockdom, like never getting a merit badges as a cub in Boy Scouts, doing poorly at sports. I hated sports, but he kept signing me up for every fucking thing under the sun.
(P) This is abuse, by the way, what your dad has done to you.
I typed ‘son’ instead of S-U-N right there, that probably means something. When I wanted to take Home Ec classes or other girly classes, instead of manly shit like trying out for the football team,
(P) That was just a long sentence that I read incorrectly
There were moments of verbal abuse after failures at jockdom when I wanted to take Home Ec or other girly classes instead of manly shit like trying out for the football team. I totally would have done wood shop and metal shop though, if they weren’t shut down the year before I got to high school. The worst, and most clear event about this shit, is straight up not ok abuse, was a time he drove me out to the country, sat me down in an empty cornfield, and shat on me for about two hours saying things like, ‘You'll never make anything it yourself. No woman will ever love you’ etc., that was really it though.
(P) Wow, I love how you are like, not really sure if that was a big deal, and that is your dad - shit in your fucking soul. Oh, I just want to give you a hug.
The rest was just sort of in his demeanor behavior the way he looked at me when he was disappointed. He worked a lot, like a LOT. Twenty eight hour days, we'd say. He's a serious workaholic surgeon, always working even when he's at home. Always traveling around the world to different surgical conferences. On a brighter note, I got to see so much of the world while I was growing up. We traveled a lot when my depression allowed. I really loved it, and I'm sure he's got some serious unresolved issues, but he doesn't believe in that sort of thing so it will remain unresolved. I don't know how to end this. I know, don't minimize. I've heard you read these things before you always tell people not to minimize no matter how legitimately minor their abuse may have been, but for realsies, it was minor and mostly past.
(P) It was not minor. It was not minor!
Any positive experiences with your abusers: Not really. I never liked him and still don’t at age twenty nine. I need to forgive him and abandon my grudge, but depression loves a good grudge.
(P) I would say that even before the worrying about forgiving him and abandoning your grudge, how about working on giving yourself, feeding your soul. And I think therapy would be a great place.
Darkest thoughts: I can only confess so much at one time.
Darkest secrets: I’m not sure if this counts but I do have a secret that I don't tell anyone that doesn't already know. I love guns. I am not a Republican. I'm not religious. I'm not a bigot or a racist. I do not want to kill children or whatever else the Democratic Party in popular media would make me out to be. I do not like Obama because he's too conservative in the pocket of corporations too much of a warmonger etcetera. I’m questioning both my gender and parts of my sexuality and I live in a gay neighborhood. I'm not the stereotypical gun owner, I just love guns, I like the mechanics of them, the history of them, the technical improvements and innovations over the centuries, taking them apart, putting them back together, shooting them, collecting them, and even, yes, carry the one concealed for personal protection. Firearms are important to me but I am deathly afraid of letting anyone know that because of how it may change the way they may think of me or how the shitty right wing ass holes will think of me as one of their own. I moved to a new city five months ago and I have been too crippled by depression and anxiety to venture out much. I've only met a few people through a meet up dot com group and there's one girl I can't stop thinking about. And I never want her to find out that I like guns. Because I know we're both really really far to the left, both socially and politically, and that is not a safe place for a gun owner. I am ashamed that I'd have to be ashamed about this around people I care about and people that I want to care about me, aside from those intrusive thoughts we all have, of course. Sometimes I will think horrible or make a snap judgment based on the way someone looks or acts and then I'll need to stop and correct myself or whatever horrible thing came to mind. It's hard to overcome the indoctrination of the society we grew up in, and I never stop trying to be better.
(P) You know my thought is, if you want it talk about this gun stuff to somebody that you're getting close to, read them what you wrote here. ‘Cuz it makes perfect sense to me.
Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: I don’t know, I’ve struggled with my sexuality, my depression has complicated things to the point I'm a virgin at age twenty nine and I’ve only been kissed once.
What if anything you wish for: Death, rebirth, and new life. A chance to start over in a different body. I have the money to do basically whatever I want but nothing that I really want is within the realm of possibility.
Have you shared these things with others: Nope. I haven't really had an opportunity though, being a shut in and all.
How do you feel after writing this down: I don't really know. I have trouble with feelings. Whenever I was shown a chart of smiley or frowning faces and told that point to the one that most resembles now I felt, I could never do it because none of them quite fit.
(P) Yep, that’s it. Thank you, thank you very, very much for that Bob. That was very heartfelt, and illuminating. And now let's get to the interview with Guy Winch.
(P) We talked about rumination, previously; what would be another major topic that you have some suggestions for people to deal with?
Guy: Well, I think the most common psychological injury we tend to sustain, is rejection. Because, it used to be bad enough, you know, our spouse would rebuff out sexual advances, our neighbors wouldn't invite us to the BBQ, meanwhile, colleagues go to lunch without us, but now we have this whole arena of social media. So now, you know, we are liking our friends, vacation pictures on Facebook, but they didn't like ours back and we feel bad, then we've re-tweeted our friends tweet, but they didn't retweet ours, and we feel rejected. Social media is a whole new arena for rejection and actually people feel very rejected a lot of the time on these platforms.
P When I see that other people and been invited on Facebook to something that I haven't been invited, I call that getting Face-fucked.
Guy: Indeed, there is a lot of face fucking going on.
P (laughing) There is, I just had to add that. I like to slow things down by quoting myself. There's nothing really more indulgent and annoying than that. Go ahead, Guy.
Guy: Well there’s twitter-fucking, there’s LinkedIn-fucking, there’s a whole variety of getting screwed over now, in social media. But the thing that's interesting about that is, when people talk to me about that, they feel two things: They feel the sting of rejection, and then they feel the second part of that whammy, is ‘what's wrong with me, that that would be so upsetting to me? Why am I such a loser that I would be so upset at the fact that somebody didn't like my vacation pictures? It really bothered me, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I must really have issues.’ And, well, they might, but my real point of that is, that when you look at the science of rejection, it turns out you don't necessarily have issues, because when scientists put people in functional MRI machines where they can actually see what's going on in the brain - and this is the study they did which is a little, talk about evil - they asked for volunteers – not volunteers, they actually paid them –they asked for people who had recently suffered a really traumatic romantic rejection. They had them bring in a glossy eight by tens of those that rejected them, lie in the MRI machine looking at the picture, and re-playing that rejection as they saw what happened in their brain.
P Wow.
Guy: Yes. I immediately went to see how much they got paid, because I was terribly curious; it’s not going to be the average ten dollars. But anyway it wasn't, it was good. What they found it was so interesting was the same areas in the brain light up when we experience rejection as light up when we experience physical pain. The rejection pathways in the brain piggyback on the pathways responsible for physical pain. And that's why the expression ‘hurt feelings’ related to the rejection, is the same in every language in the world. Rejection literally hurts. And when they did studies about it where they manipulated someone into feeling rejected, and then they tell them, you know that actually wasn’t real, that was a manipulation, it didn't make the hurt go away. Rejection is really resistant to reason. You can’t reason it out that easily. You can, but it will still sting. Because we really get activated, it actually hurts us. And so, it's important for people to know when these, certainly when the small ones happen, but when the moderate ones happen, and they’re really reeling with that rejection and feeling it in a very big way, you’re wired that way. That's why you're feeling it.
P Is everybody wired that way?
Guy: Everyone is wired in that way. Now look, we all have our little emotional resilience differences, and our fundamental differences in what we bring to the game, but we’re all wired that way in terms of evolution. The thing was, when we were hunter-gatherers, to be ostracized from the tribe was pretty much a death sentence. You could not survive alone. So we developed an early warning mechanism, which is what rejection is. People who experience rejection as more painful had the evolutionary advantage, because then they would correct their behavior, not get ostracized, and survive to pass along their genes.
P Ah, that makes perfect sense.
Guy: Absolutely.
P It's also why I think, people have the urge to fuck so much, it’s like, you know, the star gazer that wasn't really interested in sex, his genes died out, you know, in the sixteen hundreds. Or hers.
Guy: Well, before.
P: Before that. And I think, people struggle so often with an urge in them to not be monogamous, or to not settle down, and I think if they can have some compassion for themselves and understand that this is a remnant of evolution, maybe they can have some more compassion for the feelings inside themselves and not feel like they are a bad person because they want to cheat on their spouse. And I’m not talking about actually going out and cheating on your spouse, but those feelings inside.
Guy: Well actually, the science about that, if you’re going to talk about that just for a minute, it’s a big question about how monogamous we were in our evolutionary past, and the current theories are, not so much. In other words, there wasn't this, where oh yea, the men were out fucking whoever they wanted, and the women were loyal to the men. There wasn’t that, there was an evolutionary advantage for women, for the men not to know exactly who was the parent, because then they will protect all the women in the tribe. So it’s a big question about how monogamous we were. And there’s a lot of wish that we were, you know, we would like to think that we pair-bonded from the time we got civilized and started agriculture, but maybe not.
P: OK. Now I feel like a jackass.
Guy: No, I’m saying, I’m actually supporting your point. Yes, because I’m saying that those drives, it doesn't make you a bad person, meaning that we know that it is an evolutionary thing, that we are not necessarily monogamous, we are trying to squeeze a round hole into a square peg, peg into a round hole, rather, you know what I mean,
P: That is so Freudian it’s not even funny.
Guy: (laughs) it’s just the wrong shapes. But,
P: My cock is actually square.
Guy: Well there we are.
(laughter)
Guy: So yes, I think it's a natural thought to have, and as you said you need to distinguish between the thought and the impulse and the behavior.
P: What are some tips you can give people who are experiencing rejection?
Guy: So, one of the things that we do, and this is true, unfortunately, in a lot of realms, in terms of psychology, you know, we get the initial injury, and then we make it worse. So we get the little rejection, and then we start becoming really self-critical, we went on one date with a person, they weren't interested, and we start listing all our faults, everything that's wrong with us, we’re not this enough, we’re not that enough, in other words, out self-esteem is bruised by the rejection to begin with, but then we take it and start stomping on it and kicking it, and really bashing it into a pulp.
P: Maybe extrapolating it to, other people are gonna find out about this, and they’re gonna you know, think less of me.
Guy: Absolutely. It's a whole party. And the thing is that, you know, this is something we do psychologically that we would never do physically. You know, you would never sprain your leg and decide, now I’m going to run a marathon and make sure it’s broken! But psychologically, we do it all the time. We take a wound and make it worse.
P: Why? Why do we do that?
Guy: Because we have absolutely no awareness. And this is what's so great about your podcast. Your podcast brings much awareness to these kinds of issues, and bring so much humanity to them, it opens up, it de-stigmatizes, but how many people do that? How many podcasts do that? We are so behind psychologically, to where we are physically, in just our basic thinking about it. Even when I know that book Emotional First Aid people said, well, you know, must we treat psychological wounds? And I’m like, I dunno, must you treat physical ones? I mean, get your arm infected and let’s lop it off, why not? Why aren’t you doing that? In other words, the fact that people have to ask that question, really just shows how far behind we are. It’s ridiculous.
P: That’s shocking to me. The ripples of untreated emotional injury and dysfunction, I think, there are few things in civilization that affect as many things as that.
Guy: Well I’m going to take the thought further. What if we started educating our kids about these things at a young age. You know kids floss and brush the teeth at age four. They know that they have to take care of the teeth at age four. If they know they should take care of their teeth, can’t we teach them to take care of their emotions? Is that something we couldn't teach? Of course we could. But we don't. But just imagine, if we did, to raise a generation of people who knew that feelings and emotions are things that need to be protected, need to be treated, need to be looked after in the same way that their bodies need to be looked after, and their teeth.
P: And to give them tools to understand when your brain is fucking with you, and when it’s a feeling you need to pay attention to.
Guy: Exactly.
P: That is the biggest struggle, I find, is to say ok, when this is just a trigger, this just my issue filtering reality and distorting it, and when is this my body I should be listening to because this is a person who is toxic, and I need to set some boundaries or withdraw from this experience.
Guy: Absolutely.
P: So what some tools for dealing with rejection?
Guy: One of the first things I recommend is, you have to have to stop the bleeding, in other words, you really have to argue with the self-criticism. If it's in, let’s say, the romantic realm, you know of that thing that we have ‘no it's not you, it's me,’ yes, it's probably them, because romance is about the match. It's about the lock and the key in the shapes, and the idea is, that you might not have that what they're looking for. It doesn't mean that you are not good in any way shape or form, or you're not sufficient in any way shape or form, your lock didn’t fit their key. That's all that means. You have to be aware not to take it further than that. Or if you didn't get hired by the employer, it could be for a hundred and one reasons, or your friends didn't like any of you vacation pictures it could be they saw them they smiled, and the next time they see you they will say, ‘I love those pictures,’ but when they saw them, they were holding a toddler one hand, and car keys in the other, and their thumbs weren’t long enough to press the ‘like’ button. So you really have to avoid making it worse. That’s the most important thing with rejection. Don't make it worse. And understand why it hurts. Because you’re wired that way.
P: And the other thing I would suggest, too, especially when it comes to romantic rejection, is understand that there are huge amounts of people out there that cannot respond, once they know that you see them. They are love avoidant, and that is completely their own issue. Because they may be into you at first, because they love the attention, but then they realize, Oh now it’s the point where there is something required of me, there is intimacy, I might be devoured by this person, and they want to pull away. I see that so many times. In people I’ve corresponded with, in the experiences I had in my twenties, with all the sudden like a switch turning off, I couldn’t stand to be around a girl that wanted more now, and then I wanted to run. And it breaks my heart that I didn't have the words to express to her then, that you don't understand, the reason I changed is because you’re present, and you’re healthy, and you’re whole, and this is scaring the shit out of me. So I wanted to put that out there to people who've been rejected. It might be you’re too healthy for that person, and too present, and that’s scaring the shit out of them.
Guy: That happens a lot, and actually, if things have been going well, and suddenly something flipped and you don't understand what it is, but suddenly it was over from the other person's point of view, the number one suspect is what you just said. In other words, it is absolutely pointless to start a looking at whether you did some fatal mistake. There was no fatal mistake. If you’ve been going out for three months and suddenly got closer, and suddenly they ran, it's absolutely nothing to do with you, ninety nine percent of the time.
P: What are some other tips for dealing with rejection? Or are those the big major ones?
Guy: There are a few others. One of the things that happens when we get rejected, we really angry, and we get really aggressive, and we’re not aware of it. But we are likely to take it out on the innocent people are likely to come home to families and be really irritable, and snap their heads off, and so it's also very important to be aware that it's going to make you angry. It's going to make you feel aggressive, so look out for that. Because, a lot of the time, people don’t. And then, they are not connecting the two because this small thing happened, and then this happened hours later, so who knows, maybe it was just the traffic. No, it was probably the thing that made you feel crappy.
P: Isn't it funny how it's never really about the thing, in the moment, it's almost always about some previous thing that we’ve buried and we’re not processing. It's crazy.
Guy: Right.
P: So, given that, how you deal, though, even though we are aware, okay I'm irritable because of this, how do you decrease the flames in that fire?
Guy: Well, again, in my book there is a bunch of exercises and different things that people can do. Some of them are a little bit more time consuming than others, some of them are writing exercises, and some people say ‘I’m not going to take ten minutes to write’ and I say really? And if you sprain your muscle, how long are you going to go to physical therapy three times a week? Until that's better? Why are we investing there, but you wouldn't invest in your emotional health, in your feelings? I don't understand why. It’s ten minutes. I’m sorry, is that too much for you now? Because we can spare the ten minutes. And it says more about the skepticism, that we tend to think, well there’s nothing I can do about my feelings.
P: Imagine if, in first or second grade, we had kids write about that, and they got to experience the catharsis of journaling or writing for just five minutes about something that bothered them on the playground. I can’t tell you how many people have filled out surveys and had a cathartic moment where suddenly they were in tears, they’ve seen the words on the page or on the screen, that they’ve never verbalized or gotten out before, and it’s a transcendent moment in their life. And I think if that can happen on just, a survey on a web site for a podcast, imagine what it would be like if that was ingrained in your everyday life! If that was something that you saw the benefits of as a developing child! How profound that could be.
Guy: Well the survey is not a simple thing, because what you're doing when you are responding to the survey is hafta you have to go to the memory, and then you have to organize your thoughts, and then you have to actually produce them in the writing, in a coherent fashion. So there's a lot of processing that goes on. That's why it's so effective. I know it's not a direct on to say this. The thinking you have to go through, we have to be selective, you have to put it in some kind of order, I know these surveys, some people have a little bit more order and logic, others are more free flowing, but still, even if it sounds free flowing or even if it reads that way, there was thought put into what I'm saying first, what I'm saying second, there is processing going on. That's why it's so evocative, and that's why it's so useful.
P: Wouldn’t it be awesome to have to show called Emotional Jeopardy.
(laughter)
Guy: What are the rounds there?
P: I don’t know but I just love the idea of people phrasing their trauma in the form of a question, or being rejected for not putting it in the form of a question, and the spiraling that would… That would be a fun life show to do.
Guy: What is ‘alcoholic parent,’ Alex?
P: I’ll take ‘Inappropriate Touching’ for 500.
(laughter)
P: What are some other tips for dealing with rejection?
Guy: So one other thing that rejection really impacts is, we have this thing called a need to belong, another leftover from the tribal days. And it dislodges it, we feel unsettled. For example, I say this to parents when they talk about their kids being bullied. When the kids get bullied or, the kid didn't get invited to that birthday party, and feel very very rejected, the parents can talk about that with the kids. And they should talk about that with their kids. And they should problem solve, and what can you do next time that happens. One thing I suggest because it does dislodge us, it unsettles us, we need to feel like we belong, one of the first things that parents should do is, screw the homework that night, call a couple of very good friends, let’s have them over. Let’s remind you of the people who value you, who love you, who enjoy you, who think you are fun. Reinstate that right away. As soon as possible. And that is a very important thing to do, in terms rejection. Remind yourself of the people who value you. Remind yourself of the fact that you are loved. They did studies in which people went through a memory of rejection, and half the people had pictures of loved ones on the table, and half had celebrities that they really loved. They wanted to see who feels most emotional pain after that to people within the celebrities or the ones with Aunt Flossy, and Aunt Flossy won out, over Justin Bieber. Or whoever. Celebrities had no power whatsoever, when it came to making us feel like we belong in some kind of way.
P: What you do when you invite the kids friends over and they all turn you down?
Guy: Go behind the scenes. Don’t do that in front of the child.
P: Oh, OK! I think you tell the kid, ‘you’re on your own.’ Then you give them a little hobo stick and a kerchief, and send them to the train tracks.
Guy: Right, the tracks must be around the corner, just hop a car. But you can organize something like that. And if you can’t do it in that moment, say look, those two people are going to come over on Saturday, and we’re going to have a great time, and they are really looking forward to seeing you.
P: I think the other important thing about that too, is they can see that parent is in my corner. They're protecting me. They can feel that that bond, and that they're being seen and their emotions are validated.
Guy: Right. And this is the problem that parents have a lot of time. They want to do something for their children in these situations, they just don't know what. And in this book, almost every piece of advice I give them, almost every exercise - because every chapter is divided into two parts – what are the wounds, and then what are the treatments. And every treatment is something you can actually teach your kids.
P: It the other thing that I like about that, too, I think a lot of parents think that just praising their kids is going to heal that wound. While I'm sure that does help, I remember being hurt or something, and my parents saying, ‘You're a smart handsome kid,’ and it felt good to know that my parents cared that I was hurting, it also felt - patronizing isn’t the right word - but it just felt like, this isn't helping.
Guy: Well actually, that kind of praise doesn't help, and some kids, it will make them feel worse. Another one, if a child feels unattractive, and the parents go, ‘but you are the most beautiful girl in the world,’ but she feels fundamentally unattractive, and her experience is that boys are not finding her attractive, her parents telling her she's beautiful will make her feel worse. Because it'll just really remind her that that's not her experience. And so it’s not only not helpful, it can make kids feel worse, because you’re telling them the opposite of what they are feeling in that moment.
P: And I think you then just think, ‘Oh that person just doesn’t know.’ I've got a parent that’s clueless, that has no clue as to what's attractive or what’s popular.
Guy: And you can’t take anything else they say seriously either.
P: It’s gotta be so human for that parent to want to do that, and I imagine ninety nine percent of parents don't know what to do beyond that, because it's killing them that their child is hurting.
Guy: Right.
P: That’s interesting. What other tools for rejection?
Guy: Those are a lot of the things that people can start with. The idea is to get some tools, practice them, and some of them overlap. For example, when I have a headache I know which over the counter medication will work best for me, even though there are seven or eight probably, tried them, but this one tends to work best. That’s the idea with these tools, is to try them out and see what’s most effective for you, and most effective for your kids, and that's the one to reach for the next time this thing happens.
P: Is it fair to say that writing your feelings out or calling a trusted friend and talking about it is, across the board, a good tool for just about any type of hurt or anxiety?
Guy: Writing, yes, … depends on the friend. You know, plenty of people mean very well, but if you’re just spilling your guts for half an hour, and the response you get is, ‘Uh. Bummer.’ That’s not going to feel very satisfying. So, you need somebody who's actually able to express the empathy statement, the sympathy statement, and really let you know that they get it, beyond the monosyllabic responses.
P: I would add to that, to have a sense of when it's beginning to drain the other person, and I don't know if there's any way you can quantify that, because each relationship is unique. But I do know that people have a limit to how much empathy and time they have with somebody, especially when it tends to be the same issue coming up over and over again.
Guy: Well I definitely address that in the book, and give guidance to people, exactly, in terms of how to deal with friends. And I and to have them write down, how many times have I gone to this friend, with this issue. You have to spread that around. You can’t burden friends and in that sense, because it’s going to hamper the friendships, for one, and number two, it's going to define that friendship in a way that that friendship is based on a victim model where you’re the victim and they’re the soother, and it’s going to be hard to break out of that. So, spread it around, or make it entirely about them, for one time. And if it’s a little bit difficult both for you and them, to make it about them, then it’s gone a little too far, because if you are finding it hard to step out of that mode, it’s a very important thing to be aware of how it's impacting friends, family, whoever you tend to go to for support, you want to make sure you don’t over burden them.
P: Thank you so much Guy.
P: And again, guys, the book is called Emotional First Aid.
I’m going to read an email, and an awfulsome moment, and then I will send you on your way. And this is a two part email from a listener named Brooke. I’m going to read the original email she sent to me. She writes: Paul, I just wanna say thank you for the podcast. I only started listening six months ago while browsing around. I was very interested in listening to it because I’ve suffered from depression and anxiety since I was in middle school. I’m now age twenty. I love hearing other people's stories in finding a community people who struggle with the same things that I do. I really connect to the surveys and hearing that some stuff happened but I don't know if it counts really struck me because I find myself in that category. So many stories of children being raped or molested, but when I started hearing people on the surveys talking about child on child sexual abuse, and hearing you say it is sexual abuse, it floored me. When I was about five years old, on two separate occasions, two older neighborhood girls made me strip and touch myself, and they touched me too. The second time it happened my mom walked in on the tail end of the incident. She made the girls leave, and I was spanked and punished. I was so confused about what happened to me. I had no idea why I was being punished for something that didn't want to do, and I even told my mom I didn't want to do it, but I never told her what exactly happened. Fifteen years later, this memory still haunted me, and whenever my boyfriend touched my vagina I would have these flashbacks. I never understood why that would happen. Because if I was sexually abused, my parents would have done something, right? But they didn’t. Instead, I was punished and occasionally my mom still brings up the incident, and it floods me with guilt yet again. Of course, I always say I don't remember that happening. Hearing people with similar stories on your podcast inspired me to recognize this memory head on. I told my boyfriend who was super supportive. Last week, I brought this issue up to my therapist. We are now starting trauma treatment, and she's giving me the tools to process this memory and how to be able to be sexual without feeling guilt and shame as I did when I was five. I owe you so much, Paul, for telling your listeners and bringing light to the fact that you don't need to be raped or molested by an old guy. (P: Although it helps. Couldn’t resist.) to have experienced sexual abuse. I know I have a not so easy couple of months ahead of me while dealing with this in therapy, but I'm excited to finally feel the way about sex that I'm supposed to, and not feel shame about my vagina. Thanks again Paul, for everything you do to take away the stigma of mental illness and bring light to these not so fun issues.
P: And then I wrote her back and told her how much her email touched me, no pun intended, and asked for an update, ‘cuz I love getting updates from people who are charging head on, trying to heal. And so, six months later, she emailed me, got this a week ago.
Paul, wanted to send you an update. My therapist and I have been doing some pretty in depth trauma work. Part of the work was to let my mom know that I have been angry all these years because of her punishing me after walking in on my abuse. My mom took my letter I gave her very well. She was very apologetic, and she told me that she thought she prevented the abuse and didn’t know that it had already happened. I felt so validated by knowing my mom didn't blame me or think it was my fault. I finally feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. My therapist and I have also been working on how I can feel good about being sexual. What has made this process so much easier is that I have a fantastic boyfriend who is very willing to help me with the homework my therapist gives me. I finally feel like the woman I've always wanted to be, and not the scared five year old girl who feels shameful of feeling sexual. Hearing other people's stories is so empowering, and made me realize that I need to be easier and more loving to myself. I can give sympathy to other people's issues but I somehow couldn't do that for myself. Thank you for helping take away the stigma, and at the end of the day if we can laugh at ourselves, then we aren't as fucked as we thought.
P: Thank you for that Brooke. Finally, I want to read an awful some moment, filled out by Monica. She writes: On the hour drive to the latest psych ward my son is in, the music from the Twilight zone is on repeat. The anxiety and dread magnifies with every turn, in every foot stepped down the winding halls. Why are the psych wards always so far away from the entrance? I watch my finger go towards the doorbell on the wall that will tell my son's new caretakers that I am here to see him. The few seconds you wait are an eternity. My thoughts race with fear: How will he look? What will we say? Is this a hate you, or love you, or who are you visit? The employee who opens the locked door always gives you the same look of suspicion, as if I am there for nefarious purposes. Really? I wait in the hallway by the nurse's office as they go and find my son. A patient slowly makes her way towards me, spinning in circles. Chubby, hair in a ponytail, the prerequisite stretchy pants and fluffy slippers. I nod and say hello, careful to not make too much eye contact - just enough to not seem like a threat. I've done this before. I know the drill. I see my son coming down the hallway shuffling his feet and his latest sedation. My anxiety slides down a notch: shuffling feet means no violence. The young lady spins herself in small circles closer and closer to me. I don't sense a threat from her. My son is getting closer now and slowly lifts his head up. The young lady gets as close to me as she knows she can without the nurses yelling. As my son lifts his head higher, we make eye contact, and he smiles his old familiar smile. The young lady touches my arm. I look down at her and she says, ‘I'm a ballerina.’ I say, ‘Well, yes. Yes, you are.’
Thank you for listening, and we will see you on Friday.
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