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Episode Transcript:
Welcome to Episode 439 with my guest, Hilary Jacobs Hendel. Today's episode is sponsored by New Chapter's Zyflamed Whole Body. It's perfect for anyone seeking inflammation support. It's patented 10-herb blend—which includes turmeric, ginger, rosemary, and green tea—helps balance inflammation while enhancing mobility, flexibility, and joint function. Find New Chapter products like Zyflamed at The Vitamin Shoppe, Whole Foods, or your local health food store. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration; they are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
My name is Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. Our social media handle is @mentalpod. And mentalpod.com is also the, uh, web site that you can go join the forum or take an anonymous survey or read guest blogs. Or just stare at it. Just call it up and just stare out the window and think about what might have been. Hmm? Think about what might have been if you didn’t make all those mistakes! (Laughs) Maybe I should talk about, uh, somebody other than myself.
[00:01:38] Let's see. Let me go over the checklist. Gracie, rested and ready to bark: check. Self-judgment: check. Taking myself too seriously: check. Self-doubt: check. Unrealistic expectations: check. Loud neighbor: check. Imagining all the listeners with one foot out the door: check. Fear that this episode will turn away first-time listeners: check. Vague sense that something is wrong, but I just can't see it, although it's clear to everyone else: check. Clear picture of future me realizing what it was and that it's too late, as I die alone in an un-air conditioned room with bare bulb, peppy fly, and wilted flower on top of a wobbly nightstand: check!
[00:02:33] Let's read a couple of, uh, surveys before we get to … this episode with Hilary. This is a struggle in a sentence filled out by (laughs) a woman who calls herself "Mr. Poopy Butthole." Not sure why, why she, uh, went with "Mr." Can't there be a Mrs. Poopy Butthole? Maybe that's unladylike. She writes about her anxiety: "It's like that scene in the movie where the protagonist has to swim to escape, and if they come up for air they'll get shot. So they hold and hold their breath and swim and swim and swim." That might be a way to make the Olympics more interesting. About her compulsive eating: "It's like I'm a death-row inmate getting my last meal, but it turns into a lifetime of last meals." About her PTSD: "It's like that scene in Clockwork Orange, with the toothpicks in the eyelids, except I'm watching my own worst memories and no one is doing my the courtesy of eye drops." (Laughs) My god, these are so good. This is the bet one. Her anger issues: "It's like being stuck on a merry-go-round, where people flick you in the head as you pass them by, and every other person tells you to calm down." Holy fuck, that is so good. Thank you for that.
[00:03:58] This is a awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself, "I Call My Mom By Her First Name." She writes, "My mom is an alcoholic addict and narcissist in active addiction. I'm also an alcoholic addict, but I am in recovery. We've always had a strained relationship at best. With the help of my therapist, I've been working to heal my inner child and accept my relationship with my mom as is—easier said than done. It was my birthday recently. My mom asked if I had any reflections to share.
I was thrilled for the opportunity to be vulnerable with her. We were riding in her vehicle—that I bought and paid for and continue to pay the insurance on. I began to talk about how I never imagined I'd be clean and sober, in a healthy relationship, experiencing inner peace, etcetera, when she interrupted me to yell, 'I'm getting wet!'" (Laughs) "Her window was down, and she was smoking a cigarette. She then rolled her window up and rolled my window down. It was truly the perfect snapshot of our relationship. There was nothing I could do but just laugh and try to continue on with what I was sharing. A few moments later, she interrupted me again to ask if I was getting wet. I said, 'Yeah, I am.' And she said, 'That's okay; we're almost there anyway.'" (Laughs) "When I told my therapist about it, we both laughed until we cried. My sponsor, too. It felt really good." That, that one might be hall of fame. (Laughs)
[00:05:29] I went on Yelp, uh, again recently. I … been sharing with you guys that there's a lot of things on Yelp that are reviewed that, uh, I had no idea. And there are some reviews on Yelp for Hell. And this one is filled out by "JB." And they writes, "Well, I blew it. Not surprisingly, it is unseasonably warm here, but the occasional breeze does the trick. The devil doesn’t have horns or a tail or hooves, but he does have a comb-over and colored contact lenses. Naturally, the mattresses sag and the pillows lack a cool side. I've met a couple of murderers, a lot of CEOs, and tons of drivers who never thank-you waved. And one poor fuck associated with the final episode of Game of Thrones. His bed is a pile of clearly fake bricks." And then, this one is filled out by "CC." And they write, "I don’t get it. I was a faithful husband, a loving father, and a good friend. I loved my job and left a legacy of inventions, including the frosted Pop Tart."
[00:06:45] I wanna tell you guys about one of our sponsors today. It is the audiobook edition of Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered, and it's written and read by the hilarious Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark You may know them as the hosts and voices behind the hit podcast, My Favorite Murder. You can hear, in their own voices, never behore, uh, before heard stories ranging from their struggles with depression, eating disorders, and addiction. And they're so good at recounting … their fuck-ups, their fears, the … the events in their lives that shaped them into who they are. And Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered—which might be the best top, uh … title of a book every—they focus on the importance of self-advocacy and valuing personal safety of being "nice" or "helpful." They delve into their own pasts, true crime stories, and beyond to discuss meaningful cultural and societal issues with fears, empathy and unapologetic frankness. Megan Mullally calls Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered, "Hilarious, honest, insightful, and clever as hell." And, the audiobook includes section recorded in front of a live audience, plus a special guest appearance by the one and only Paul Giamatti. So, buy the audiobook edition of Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered wherever audiobooks are sold.
[00:08:13] Today's episode is also sponsored by, uh, betterhelp.com online counseling. If you never tried online counseling, I highly recommend it. It's, uh, it's a really great way to, to get help without having to leave your house, which I am a huge, huge fan of. If you’ve never checked out their web site, go to betterhelp.com/mental. And then you can fill out a questionnaire. And if they have a counselor that they believe is the right fit for you, they’ll match you with them, and then you can experience of, uh, free counseling to see if online counseling is, uh, is a good fit for you. You need to be over 18. And the, uh, address to go to is betterhelp.com/mental. And make sure you include the "/mental" part, so they know you came from this podcast.
[00:09:06] And finally, I just wanna read … a snapshot from a woman's struggle in a sentence survey. She calls herself "Depressive Beer Snob." And she writes, "My wife doesn’t think I have any mental illness at all, frequently belittles and insults me, and never offers support. Today she asked me why I don’t talk to her about my issues anymore, and started making fun of me again. I stopped her and said this interaction is a perfect example, and that it was not helpful to me. She replied back that, yes, it was, in fact, very helpful because I needed to get over it.
Intro
[00:10:43] Paul: I'm here with Hilary Jacobs Hendel, who is, uh, a licensed clinical social worker and an author. And you wrote an article that blew my mind. Shared many, many times by people. It was on the New York Time's web site. One of the most, uh, viral articles that they’ve had.
Hilary: Yeah, it was, um, it was a Number 1 emailed and Number 2 read for 36 hours.
Paul: That's amazing.
Hilary: Yeah, it was amazing.
Paul: Would you, could we kick things off by you reading that?
Hilary: Sure, I'd love to! "It's Not Always Depression." "How can it be that a seemingly depressed person, one who shows clinical symptoms, doesn’t respond to antidepressants or psychotherapy? Perhaps because the root of his anguish is something else. Several years ago, a patient named Brian was referred to me. He had suffered for years from an intractable depression for which he had been hospitalized. He had been through cognitive behavioral therapy, psychoanalytic psychotherapy, supportive therapy, and dialectic-, dialectical behavioral therapy. He had tried several medication cocktails, each with a litany of side effects that made them virtually intolerable. They had been ineffective anyway. The next step was electroshock therapy, which Brian did not want.
When he first came to see me, Brian was practically in a comatose state. He could barely bring himself to speak, and his voice, when I managed to get anything out of him, was meek. His body was rigid, his facial expression blank. He couldn’t look me in the eye. Yes, he seemed extremely depressed, but knowing he had been treated for depression for years without good results, I wondered about the diagnosis. Even though we were together in my office, I was struck by a strong sense that Brian was elsewhere. I asked him what percentage of him was with me in the room. 'Maybe 25 percent,' he said. 'Where is the rest of you?' I asked. 'I don’t know,' he said, 'but somewhere where it is dark and I am alone.' 'Would you like me to help you get a little more relaxed?' I asked. He looked a bit surprised, but said yes. So I grabbed a small cushion off my sofa and tossed it to him. He caught it and smiled. 'Toss it back,' I playfully commanded, and he did. His body loosened perceptibly, and we talked some more. When I asked after several minutes of tossing the cushion back and forth what percentage of him was now with me, he responded with another smile. 'I am all here now,' he said. That's how it went for several months. We played catch while we talked.
”Playing catch got him moving, relaxed him, established a connection between us, and was fun. During our initial sessions, I developed a sense of what it was like to grow up in Brian's home. Based on what he told me, I decided to treat him as a survivor of childhood neglect, a form of trauma. Even when two parents live under the same roof and provide the basics of care, like food, shelter, and physical safety—as Brian's parents had—the child can be neglected if the parents did not bond emotionally with him. This, I suspected, was the case with Brian. He told me that his parents were both preoccupied with the heavy burdens of a family that could barely make ends meet. While his mother never called herself an alcoholic, she drank to excess, and his father was often emotionally checked out as well. Brian had few memories of being held, comforted, played with, or asked how he was doing. One innate to this type of environment is for the child to develop chronic shame. He interprets his distress, which is caused by his emotional aloneness, as a personal flaw. He blames himself for what he is feeling and concludes that there must be something wrong with him. This all happens unconsciously. For the child, shaming himself is less terrifying than accepting that his caregivers can't be counted on for comfort or connection.
"To understand Brian's type of shame, it helps to know that there are basically two categories of emotions. There are core emotions—like anger, joy, and sadness—which when experienced viscerally lead to a sense of relief and clarity, even if they are initially unpleasant. And there are inhibitory emotions—like shame, guilt, and anxiety—which serve to block you from experiencing core emotions. Not all inhibition is bad, of course. But in the case of chronic shame, like Brian's, the child's emotional expression becomes impaired. Children with too much shame grow up to be adults who can no longer sense their inner experiences. They learn not to feel and they lose the ability to use their emotions as a compass for living. Somehow, they need to recover themselves.
"I specialize in something called accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy. After being trained as a psychoanalyst, I switched to this approach because it seemed to heal patients who hadn’t gotten relief after years of traditional talk therapy. Many psychotherapies focus on the content of the stories that people tell about themselves, looking for insights that can be used to fix what's wrong. By contrast, accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy focuses on fostering awareness of the emotional life of the patient as it unfolds in real time in front of the therapist. The therapist is actively affirming, emotionally engaged, and supportive. She encourages the patient to attend not only to his thoughts and emotions, but also to the physical experience of those thoughts and emotions.
"In the first year of our work together, during almost every session Brian would plummet into states that I can describe only as world-, wordless suffering. I tried during those fugues to bring him back to the present moment with firm commands. 'Plant your feet on the floor,' I'd say. 'Press your feet against the ground and sense the earth beneath you.' Sometimes I asked him to name three colors in my office or three sounds he could hear. Sometimes he was too emotionally out of reach to comply. In those instances, I just sat with him in the distress and let him know that I was here with him and wasn’t going anywhere. In Brian's second year of treatment, he became more stable. This allowed us to work with his emotions. When I noticed tears in his eyes, for example, I would encourage him to inhabit a stance of curiosity and openness to whatever he was feeling. This is how a person reacquaints himself with his feelings: to name them, to learn how they feel in his body, to sense what response the feeling is calling for. And in the case of grief, like Brian's, to learn to let himself cry until the crying stops naturally—which it will, contrary to a belief among traumatized people—and he feels a sense of visceral relief.
"Brian and I worked together twice a week for four years. One by one, he leaned to name his feelings and to listen to them with care and compassion. When he did feel the urge to 'squash himself down,' he knew what was happening and how to manage the experience. He learned to express his feelings and assert his needs and wants. He took risks, made more friends, and engage in meaningful work. There were no more hospitalizations. His shame dissipated. Most important, he felt alive again."
Paul: Amazing. Amazing. So many—
Hilary: Thank you.
Paul:—important things, uh, there … The first thing that struck me when I read it was giving credence to somebody who didn’t experience overt … stereotypical abuse, but who didn’t connect emotionally with their parents. And, giving credence to that—not minimizing it—and using that as kind of a launching point to explore the pain or sadness or whatever is underneath that. Talk a-, talk about that and, um, fantasy, um, getting back in one's body—you know how Brian was kinda checked out. Just … the, the dynamics at work in a, in a typical patient that comes in there that didn’t have an overtly traumatic childhood, but who just feels disconnected.
Hilary: Um-hmm. Sure. Well, first, I think that, to some degree, everybody experiences this, um, a little to a lot. That's it's really impossible for, um, parents to be completely attuned, and especially if, if a child is different than the parent's expectation. Even something examp-, as an example of parents being very high powered and high academic, uh, went to great schools, and they have a child who is an artist, or can't focus in the same way in traditional academic environments. And then there's a sense, even though the parents are trying to help, that, that there's something wrong with the child and they don’t really understand. And so, the people that come into my office, you know, range from that. A lot of millennials and 20-year-olds that are really quite anxious and depressed and feel disconnected to people who suffered, um, with, you know, increasing levels of overt a-, abuse and neglect. And the treatment is really the same prescription, um, that these are universal principles that we, we, none of us learn about emotions and how to process them and that they're physical in nature. I don’t really know why that is, but that's what I'm trying to help with.
Paul: For example, you might feel anxiety in your stomach. Or depression in your chest, or, you know, whatever.
Hilary: Exactly. And that, you know, the first thing that I do when I meet someone is help them to slow down and learn how to ground and breathe, which helps them slow down so that they can come out of their heads and into their bodies. And I'll say something like, uh, you know, as you're sharing with me this, this story—because people are primed. You know, they know they're coming into "talk therapy" to talk, and they start talking. And especially silence can be anxiety provoking, so people generally wanna talk, and they wanna talk quickly. And I slow them down and say something like, you know, "As you're sharing with me this, this story, uh, about what happened to you, um, can we slow down and begin to notice, not only the thoughts going on in your head, but what emotions you're feeling and how you know you're feeling those … how they take form in physical sensation."
Because what none us learn is that emotions, these core emotions, the kind of the basic emotions that are survival emotions that Darwin wrote about at the turn of the century, get triggered in the middle of the brain. And the first thing they do is send signals down to all the organs of the body, because emotions are supposed to ready us for an action, like running or fighting or jumping for joy. And, and that this action is meant to be adaptive. It's meant to help us, along with our thought process and thinking through things, so that if we don’t, if we aren’t aware that this is happening, we're, we're missing out on a large part of our experience.
And so, I want to help people get accustomed so that it's not scary to feel emotions. And what really, what we all know is emotion is basically something that we come to recognize … um, unconsciously. If you slow people down and, and ask them to scan their body, um, up and down a few times and slow down and—For example, if someone says they feel sad. And I say, "Well, if you, if you check in below the neck, what inside is letting you know that you feel sad?" And if you just kind of have them hover in their visceral experience for twenty or so seconds and you prompt someone not to be, uh, critical of themselves—not to judge, but to just be open like a receiver and that there's no right or wrong answers—sure enough, uh, like something, like in the fog coming into focus, you can begin to perceive, "Oh, yes. How do I know I'm sad? I feel a heaviness in my chest. I feel tired. I feel like I wanna curl up into a ball." There's like an impulse for that movement. And that's how we begin to process feelings, so that that, the energy that's associated with core emotions can, can move through. And not energy in the sort of New Agey, woo-woo sense, but really bio-physical energy—
Paul: Grounded in science.
Hilary:—yeah, grounded in science, that we are, that there's, um, chemistry and biology and physics going on, you know, in everything in, in this planet and including our bodies and you, you can understand emotions from that perspective as well.
Paul: Talk about the triangle, uh, that's, that's in your book. The, the name of your book is, uh, "It's Not Always Depression," uh, semicolon or colon, and then, uh, about nine paragraphs after the colon. I'm not gonna a-, a-, attempt to, uh, say them. What is, what is it say?
Hilary: Should I read it?
Paul: Yes.
Hilary: It's called "It's Not Always Depression: Working the Change Triangle to Listen to the Body, Discover Core Emotions, and Connect to Your Authentic Self."
Paul: Talk about the change triangle and the seven core emotions.
Hilary: Yeah. So, basically, when I was in training, I was raised by very left-brained, intellectual, psychiatrist father. And we didn’t really talk about emotions per se in the family, um, because he didn’t know about them. We, this, this was not a body of knowledge that was accessible for, um, many years. I don’t even know how many years until I stumbled on it in, uh, in 2004, when I went to an academic conference on emotions and attachment. And my mind was blown. And I was a science nerd and I was a dentist before I became, uh, a psychotherapist—
Paul: I didn’t know that!
Hilary: Yeah. So I went to, pretty much, medical school at Columbia with the medical students. We never learned anything about emotions. I didn’t know that this, um, that there were theories of emotion, uh—
Paul: You meet any surgeon, and that becomes quite apparent.
Hilary: (Laughs) Exactly, exactly. And I wanna (laughs) teach this to everyone in medical school eventually. Hopefully they’ll, they’ll get it. But, um, there was a triangle that we learned in this, that they taught us in this conference. And as soon as I saw it, I immediately became organized and I understood my anxiety. Basically, uh, for people listening out there, it, the triangle diagrams the relationship between our core emotions—which are essential-, you know, part of our essential self. And on the top corners of the triangle are inhibitory emotions, which are anxiety, guilt, and shame. And those emotions inhibit our core emotions so that we connect to the people we need in life. Meaning—
Paul: Kind of survival?
Hilary: Sur-, yeah. Well, they're, they're the social emotions, right. So we, we don’t do bad things because we feel guilty. But sometimes we feel guilty just for taking care of ourselves. And so we need to distinguish, um, when these inhibitory emotions are serving us and when we have them in excess, like in Brian's case that had excess shame. It became toxic and it completely inhibited his ability to function. And the other corner of the triangle is defenses, which is basically anything we do to avoid pain. And the mind is, is brilliant, that there's an infinite ways to—
Paul: Addictive behavior, dissociating, fantasy, workaholism—
Hilary: YES! Eating and not eating—
Paul: Perfectionism—
Hilary: Joking, sarcasm, breaking eye contact, postural changes. And, um—
Paul: Isolating.
Hilary: Yes. And it's good to know your own defenses. We tend to be able to notice them in others before ourselves, cuz it's much easier to see others than ourselves. But basically, I saw this triangle, and—
Paul: And, and, and what are the seven core—
Hilary: Oh, sorry. Sadness, anger, fear, disgust, joy, excitement, and sexual excitement. And that when you learn to, to lean into these emotions and yourself and, and, and sort of get over whatever—You know, I was afraid of emotions until I learned about them. And that's why when you learn a few basic things, it demystifies them and it debunks all these myths like having emotions are weak, right. And mean and women and every gender in between and every sex in between has the same core emotions. And yet, you know, men are socialized to think that there's something wrong if they feel tender emotions of sadness and fear—
Paul: And anger is kind of deemed okay.
Hilary: And ager is deemed okay and sexual excitement is deemed okay. And, since emotions can kind of funnel through each other—because they have to come up somehow, uh, or, you know, when they're held down, then that's when people get anxious and depressed and develop all sorts of other symptoms. But so, when I saw this triangle, I thought, "Everybody should know about this. Why hadn’t I seen it before?" And then, that kind of simmered with me for a decade while I learned this way of working.
Paul: And what, what did it explain to you about you and, and your childhood? And, and how did it help you grow, uh, as a, as a person?
Hilary: (Sighs) In, in so many ways. I mean, once I understood that anxiety was really a signal that I had these underlying emotions, then I began to, to look at my an-, my defenses that I began to recognize kind of an irritability sometimes. And even an, like anger can be a defense against, uh—All the emotions can also act defensively. But I was prone to sort of being tough. And I was prone to anxiety. And, so then I began to look at my fears in life and what I was afraid of and what I was sad about.
Paul: Talk about those.
Hilary: Well, let me talk about sadness for a little bit, cuz I had, um … We didn’t really do sadness in my family. And, what happened as a result, my mother, who's a WONDERFUL mother, was both doing me a service and a disservice. So if I was sad about something, she would try to cheer me up. And what happened with children, we're so permeable—I got the message that there's something about sadness that is not okay. And, therefore, when things were sad, I would get anxious instead.
So, for example, I, I was sort of phobia about death and funerals. Not because I was scared of … of death as a concept, but because I was frightened of grief. And then, of course, when, when people were sad around me, I would try to fix is. And we're all, most of us are guilty of trying to fix sadness. And then when I, you know, had, had a prescription for what to do with sadness—which is, "Oh! I don’t have to do anything. I can feel it. I can sit with someone, I can hug someone. I can say, 'Can I do anything for you?'" But I could then begin to go to a funeral, feel my own sadness without getting anxious, and just learn how to be there for other people. So it really, it heled me to be a better person and a better friend.
Paul: It’s amazing how little a loved one has to do for somebody who's in pain or is sad. It, it, it seems like so much of it is just validating what they're feeling and reminding them that you care, that you're there for them. Hugging them. Just sitting in silence with them. Hol-, maybe holding their hand.
Hilary: Yes! All those things; exactly.
Paul: Instead of saying, "Here are all the awesome things that you have going on in your life," which is a form of trying to fix.
Hilary: It's a form of trying to fix. And it ends up making people feel more alone, that there's no place to really be with the sadness in a way that somebody can receive it. And sadness makes other people anxious. So the person who's sad is then now protecting, um, somebody else. So that, you know, imagine if everybody kind of knew about emotions and knew how to, to sort of be with them in this way. It would … people would be, I think, a lot less anxious and, um, more connected to themselves and to others.
Paul: Wh-, what if you had a, uh, patient—do you call them clients or patients?
Hilary: I call them patients because I was in psychoanalytic. I became a psychoanalyst before I became an AEDP therapist. But, it's interchangeable and whatever you feel comfortable with is good—
Paul: Let's say you had a, uh, patient come in who, uh, was very entitled and … they were upset that, you know, they, they didn’t get a better Jaguar for their 16th birthday. How … how do you approach somebody like that, you know, without saying (laughs), you know, you have a lack of gratitude or a lack of perceptive in your life. How do you handle somebody like that? Because while we want to give credence to somebody's emotions—we don’t wanna say that's the wrong emotion—we also want them to have a healthy perspective on reality. And, are there any instances where it’s kind of fuzzy and it's challenging as a therapist?
Hilary: Yes, absolutely. And I think that, um, you know, one of the things that I value in, in, as a therapist and going to therapists is that they're not going to make those judgments for me, that they're going to, that maybe together we're gonna figure out what's, what's in service of me and what isn't. So that, with somebody like that, again, you know, the stance of an AEDP therapist is curiosity and compassion.
And I would say, you know, that sort of, that you feel bad that you didn't get the Jaguar, I hear you. And, uh … I would wanna just say, "Could we get curious about, for you, I know why I might feel bad if I didn’t (laughs) get a Jaguar. But what does it mean to you? And what does it say about you if you don’t have a Jaguar? And, um, and what feelings does it bring up?" And … I really am curious, because on the one hand, it could bring up a sadness, a feeling of deprivation. Let's say his brothers all got Jaguars. So there's, it's got meaning that I am deprived in some way. Or maybe there's some shame there, that I don’t' have the status thing that says to me I'm not good enough. And that kind of whole defense, or that sort of thought process of, I'm, the not good enough feeling—which is sort of shame put into action … everybody suffers to from some degree. And, you wanna kind of—The way I work with those is to … those ideas—the beliefs about the self—is to kind of … I sort of invite someone to move that part of themselves over on the couch with us and get to know where they, where they learned those beliefs. That shame is such an important emotion for us all to learn about. Really learn about where it comes from—
Paul: Ju-, just move—
Hilary: Sorry—
Paul: Yeah—
Hilary:—what it means. And to, that we can begin to get to know the parts of us that feel shame by kind of thinking of them as separate aspects of ourselves. And it's really important because shame can be such a full miring … experience. And it’s really just a part that comes into the forefront of our mind when it gets triggered. And we can ask that shamed part to kind of sit with us and we try to talk to it. I mean, I dunno if that sounds weird for me to say, but it's like where did, so where did you learn to feel ashamed that it was, uh, not okay to have certain status, uh, material items?
Paul: S-, s-, so almost like, uh, the, uh, observer in meditation saying I am not what I am feeling, but let me be curious. Let me pull back and al-, you know, al-, view my life in a kind of a detached way with curiosity, you know—
Hilary: Exactly—
Paul:—rather than saying, "Oh my god, I'm failing! I shouldn’t be feeling anxiety. I'm broken. Nobody's as fucked up as me," etcetera, etcetera.
Hilary: Yes. And it's hard to do that when you're in that feeling. It feels so true. But with practice, like with meditation—and, in fact, the change triangle, in a way, I think of it as mindfulness with a map. And the only difference is that I think … what I am trying to help someone—and this comes from Richard Schwartz and internal family systems therapy, as well as AEDP, uh, the type of therapy I do—is that there, it's not like there's no self. There really is a core neural biological self that they are sort of location as a, uh, the midline of the brain and the body. And that it is the self that we want to cultivate. And that that is the mindful eye, because when the self can look at a, a suffering part, then this self, the authentic self, can then … learn to be one's, one's own loving parent, basically, to, to, or to a least a friend or a confidant or someone that you can connect to ailing parts of yourself—
Paul: And because it has the distance to, to not take it personally and to see reality wi-, with a, uh, a bit of objectivity. And so, th-, that would where self-compassion, self-care, um, you know, making sure that you're battery doesn’t get drained by people rather than trying to be everything to everybody—
Hilary: Exactly. Setting limits, um, limits and boundaries—all of those things. And we, you have to, some people don’t ha-, the self has to be re-cultivated because it wa-, was so buried in protection from so much abuse and neglect. And you do that by going through and processing emotions. It regulates the mind and body and, and gives, it just bolsters, when you can feel you feelings, know what they're telling you, and process them through, it, it boosts the, the sense of that authentic self, which is characterized by observing. But I, I, in the book, I describe how do you know you're in your authentic self. There's all these "c" words that I borrowed from Richard Schwartz of that other type of therapy, IFS. You feel calm in your body and your mind. You feel, you have the capacity for curiosity. You have the capacity for connection and, uh, and compassion. You tend to be creative, tend to be more confident. All these "c" words.
Paul: Yeah. What changed for you? What was your, your biggest leap forward, in terms of emotional growth and self-compassion?
Hilary: Hmm. Well … it was really going through a clinical depression, that my defenses were working really well, right, where, so you're, I'm not in touch with my feelings, and I'm also not really feeling much and I'm functioning at a high level. Cuz my way of dealing with anxiety was to be like … like an uber, you know, Type A type person—
Paul: Productive—
Hilary:—get shit done—
Paul: Right.
Hilary:—just getting it done. And then, there was too much stress in my life. I was going through a divorce. I had to figure out a career because I had, you know, I was a defunct dentist. I was staying at home with my two young children and hadn’t gone back, um, to, to figure out a career. So between … between managing life and all my fears kind of broke through, and the stress, that I started to, that I basically went through a clinical depression. And I didn’t even know it. It was my sister—We had coffee one day. And I remember kind of feeling like, I couldn’t really get dressed, and I kind of, you know, felt like a bag lady. And, and she's like, "I, I think—" my sister, Amanda, who's wonderful—she's like, "I think you're depressed. Maybe, I think you need to go to a psychiatrist." And I was like, "I think you're right!" And like a lightbulb went off.
Then I went on, um, Prozac for six months. And thank goodness for Prozac cuz it, it got me up out of bed and functioning again. But what I learned, for the first time, was, "Oh my gosh, it’s not mind over matter." That I'm vulnerable and that if I don’t take care of myself, this could happen again. And so, that was the beginning of being open to this idea that, uh, that I'm not super woman and that I had to take care of myself in some way. I hadn’t yet—I was years away from learning about emotions. But it was really an epiphany that I couldn’t do it all.
Paul: And did you later find out that there was shame underneath the, uh, depression or self-judgment or what—What was, other than financial fear—
Hilary: Yes.
Paul:—and doubt about how you're gonna put food on the table, what, what else, you know, maybe childhood baggage, if any, was, was at play there?
Hilary: No. And at that time, I really wasn’t, I wasn’t even aware of shame as a word, as a concept, of anything that … It was totally out of … awareness—
Paul: But was it there, as you look back?
Hilary: You know, I think, um … It’s a great question. I've worked on shame in lots of areas of my life since. There wasn’t anything, I think maybe because my, my dad was a psychiatrist and my mom was a guidance counselor, um, there wasn’t any shame with—we would talk about depression and anxiety, and there was no shame associated with that. And, um, so I don’t think I had shame with that experience that I am aware of. I had shame about not being perfect, which came up later in my second marriage when I was doing the same old thing, and our needs were clashing, and he needed more from me than I could give, and I didn’t wanna resent him and have another divorce. So I, I tr-, that was, and that's a whole other sort of interesting story. That was definitely about going through shame, and in couple's therapy, processing shame and feeling it viscerally and really appreciating the unbearable nature of viscerally embodying shame—
Paul: What, w-, do you know why it was you felt you needed to be perfect?
Hilary: I think it was that old, it was my defensive coping mechanism from the time I was, uh, recognized really for doing well in school. And, I think … you know, being a—I guess, appreciated the way parents, they don’t, they don’t mean to do this. They were affirming me for being pretty. They were affirming me for being smart. And therefore, kids think, okay, if I'm not these things, if I am messy and I fall apart and, um, it's not pretty and the package doesn’t look nice, can I still be loved? So I think just slowly—that's why I really feel this is universal, that—
Paul: So it's kind of a, a, a form of conditional love, even though it's, it's … the parent isn't intending to send that message—
Hilary: Yes. I think that's right. And the, I know in no way, shape, or form did my parents want to shame me. Just the opposite. Certainly my mother, who was very psychologically aware. But she, you know … parents have their own traumas and their own emotions that they feel comfortable with and don’t feel comfortable with, and their own goals and ways that they are shaping their child to succeed in life. It's like I have a, have a daughter that decided not to go to college. And I made he feel SO bad about it because, in retrospect, I was terrified. If you don’t go to college, how do you survive? But what I did is I created shame in her, and she was totally right. Now, she's like a, she, hugely successful hairstylist. And it’s what she loves to do. And she's an artist. And she was right.
Paul: And how did the conversation go when you realized that, that you had kind of been wrong about that?
Hilary: I've been trying to apologize (laughs) for years.
Paul: Was she receptive?
Hilary: Yes, yes, more (laughs) and more receptive, as she gets older. Yeah.
Paul: Talk about the, the issue tha-, that you had with your dad and then the first boyfriend that, that you had. We, we had talked previously about that.
Hilary: Yeah, it was in the context of why emp-, something about empath being—
Paul: Feeling seen, having your feelings validated.
Hilary: Yeah. And, an experience with that before I'd really, um—I'd had a little bit of therapy before, but I was, um, dating a guy who ended up, uh, he's a therapist now, he's a great therapist. And he was the first—I, I, I had a, a difficult relationship with my father. I was very lucky, and I really had this, as wonderful a mother that one could have, I feel, for me, um, that she really made me who I am today. But my father was tricky, and he, and he had a very difficult childhood with, um, a very mean mother. And, as a result, he … h-, how can I put it? His, he had a fatal flaw, which was that he very cheap, and he didn’t enjoy giving to people. And he didn’t enjoy giving to me, and he resented having to pay the money that it takes to raise a child—and I'm not talking about the Jaguar that you said. He resented, really, giving anything, and I was raised I an upper-middle class household on Park Avenue in New York City.
So, it was confusing. There was a, the illusion, um, of money. And yet, he resented buying me underwear basically. And so I started working at the age of 11. And we would fight all the time. But he would call me names like, um, "Jappy" and, you know, draining him and, and these things that, um, if my mother kind of wasn’t behind the scenes telling me that it wasn’t me, that it was him—they were hurtful. And I never really got validation until this boyfriend of mine, who just shared that he, that he—and he liked my dad. My dad was kind of a likeable, handsome, smart, and funny guy, uh, if you weren’t his, his daughter—or his oldest daughter, as I was. But he said, "Yeah, your, your dad is, is, is so cheap. And he's mean to you. And, um, you know, I see it, and that really sucks." And it meant so much to me, just to have the validation.
Paul: What did, what did it feel like, uh, if you remember (unintelligible) physically—
Hilary: Yes, I, I remember it exactly. It's like you can take a deep breath. It's like (sighs)! It's like a big sigh. It's like a settling in your body. Tension going away, and that you can be for a moment. And I never forgot it. And I think that's how we got talking about, that that was—I'm 55 now—that was when I was around 19 years old. Yeah. And he's a friend to this day. (Chuckles)
Paul: What are some other, uh, concepts in the, the book that you'd like to talk about, or just mental health in general?
Hilary: Hmm. Well, I mean … the reason that I, I wrote this book is because I really believe that we should all be getting a basic emotion education in high school. And yet, we live in what appears to be an emotion-phobic culture, where we learn from the get go to bury and block our emotions because we're told that that's what makes a strong person. And we get all these messages about picking yourself by your bootstraps and just get over it. and I'm, I'm sort of involved, uh, on social media in the, in the mental health and, and people who suffer mental illness. And people are still told, when they're depressed, just get over it. It is so—
Paul: Look how much you have—
Hilary:—damaging.
Paul:—to look forward to.
Hilary: Yeah. Or just suck it up, even in a mean way, not really with encouraging like by their family members.
Paul: You're just feeling sorry for yourself. You need to smile more.
Hilary: Yeah. And so, even if you don’t suffer from any type of, um, mental illness … just to understand how emotions work, really makes a difference, in terms of when there is struggle. And life is full of suffering, and all humans suffer—even though they hide it often and everyone puts on happy faces. But I think the, the, the general, our collective and individual well-being would exponentially grow with an e-, basic education in emotions. And I do think it also has the power to really change the world, to—We don’t need to have war anymore. We can pretty much feed everybody on earth and, and there's nothing to really fight about. So, what is it about aggression and shame, and particularly men in our culture … in the US culture and the whole Me Too movement—While I, I understand all sides, I really feel something for men who are socialized out of emotions … fear and sadness, and how detrimental it is. And so we have epidemic rates of anxiety and depression and addiction. And I think at a, at, a large part—
Paul: And materialism, that's the, the, the cult that, that is so corrosive, is the idea that if you can just achieve enough, uh, you will feel peace. And, it's, it's such a, it's such a myth.
Hilary: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Paul: And, what are the effects that you see—You know, we talked about anger being okay for men, but sadness not being, you know … contrarily—is that, is that a word?—uh, with women, typically anger is something that—
Hilary: Um-hmm. It’s not nice—
Paul:—they get shit—It's not nice—
Hilary: It's not nice. Don’t be an angry woman.
Paul: Yes. You know, being, enjoying sexuality—
Hilary: That's right—
Paul:—is another thing. So talk about the effects of the emotions that women are chastised for feeling or expressing and how that affects … them—
Hilary: Yeah. Well, we can talk about … men are, I mean, you said it: men OR women, it’s the same, because this triangle is universal. It, it's just the phenomenology—meaning how emotions work in the mind and body of everybody across the globe. So that, again, if you're raised to, let’s say you’re a naturally sexual woman. And one … or (chuckles)—I mean, we can … it can really talk about any emotion, but let's take sexuality. And let's say, as a youngster, um, you know, when you're, when you're pubescing (sp?) and, and you're in middle school, and you start to show this sexuality. Well, uh, as a woman, you're just brutalized with words like, uh, being slutty or loose. And, so, pretty soon, you either, you either adapt—Two things, right. So this is where we're starting to go up the, up the change triangle—to either feel anxious and being to hide and sequester those aspects of ourselves—
Paul: Slumped shoulders, baggy clothing—
Hilary: Exactly. And then, living, perhaps, a covert life, because these are strong impulses in you. So you do all sorts of things in secret. Or you, or you feel anxious. Or you just take on this kind of, um, I don’t give a shit type of attitude and start to act out even more to prove a point. Either way, i-, it's not good. That you want to be able to, ideally, that we wanna fell comfortable with who we are. And as we have language to say, "You know what? This is just a ba-, this is an attribute of me that I was born with, that this is a dispositional thing. So, you know, so go get some education in emotions before you start slinging insults at me. And it's okay."
Paul: If you could create a superhero role model for young men and a superhero role model for young women, what attributes would they, would they display?
Hilary: Well, they would be the same role model. And it would be somebody who could, um, validate their own emotions and the emotions of others. And I can try to give an example—
Paul: I would love an example.
Hilary:—if, if, in a way. So, this superhero for me would be like a, a figure that, that, I guess … uh—You know, this, this beautiful blend of strength and vulnerability. And, uh, and someone once told me never to use the word vulnerability in a session with men because they can’t stand the word vulnerable. But, we, and maybe we need to find another word. But, this idea that … When people think that feeling emotions are weak, and everybody knows deep down that feeling emotions is the hardest thing in the world, especially when you start doing it, it take strength and courage to lean into your feelings and to listen to them. So some—
Paul: You're, you're fighting the dragon, instead of run-, running from it. You are—
Hilary: That's right.
Paul:—turning around and looking into its jaws. And people are fucking warriors that stop and look reality in the face.
Hilary: Yes, that's exactly—But even like your terminology makes it sound a little scary. That, really what it means to be able to do is to sense the emotion and the energy of the emotion physically. And when you're in the midst of a very painful core emotion, and we have to work in therapy and alone with one core emotion at the time, at a time. Because we can have many coming up at the same time, and it's the combination along with the intensity that also creates anxiety.
So, you know, let’s say you're dealing, you're, you're processing, um, abuse from your mother. You're gonna have anger. You're gonna have sadness. You're gonna have fear. You're gonna have disgust. And you may even have excitement and joy, and they might all be coming up at the same time, But let’s say you're processing, um, fe-, uh, let's say you're processing sadness and the fears that it's gonna be an overwhelming sadness. I'll, I'll tell the person that I'm, or I'll invite the person I'm sitting with to drop the storyline in their mind, to even drop the emotion, and just focus while you're breathing on the feeling of the sadness in the body with compassion and curiosity, and it knows what to do. If you cry, you cry. Whatever happens, just stay with it. Stay with it. breathe through it. I'm here with you. And the feeling knows what to do, if we, if we get out of its way, right, if we, if we move aside anxiety, or rather … you can teach techniques to lower anxiety. If we move aside shame, we move aside guilt, that the, the core emotion, when we are with it physically, will move through us and—You know, emotions are like waves. So you go, you ride the wave, and you feel better generally afterwards.
And when we know what to expect, the book really shows you, gives you a vicarious experience cuz you—I wrote about what happens in sessions, so you can see what it looks like to do very, very deep emotional work: work with shame, work with rage, work with grief. And then, once you see what it looks like—And then, I teach some basic instruction about what are emotions, and some exercises, the whole thing gets demystified, and becomes really, just like learning something, like you go to the gym and you learn how to properly have, lift weights and have good technique and get stronger. And you practice it over a lifetime. It's, uh … So a superhero would basically have the qualities of strength, compassion, and the ability to tolerate ALL emotions … and stand on one's feet tall and proud and grateful as a result.
Paul: Yes. And, and the superhero was feeling overwhelmed by all the crime going on in the city and didn't shame himself for going to take a nap. (Laughs)
Hilary: That's exactly right. That he, that that superhero would know that, more than anything, when you are tired, you have to rest. And when you feel bad, you have to have compassion for yourself. And when you have feelings, you have to lean into them and say what is this feeling coming up right now telling me, because it's there for a reason. It's, it's e-, we've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years with these emotions for the purpose of survival.
Paul: I was just thinking of how funny it would be, is if they went in to rescue somebody and then they realized, "No, I'm being codependent. That would be enabling them. This is their (laughs), this is their fight—"
Hilary: This is THEIR struggle. That's exactly right. They would, that superhero would know the difference. Especially parents nowadays don’t let their kids struggle with the right things.
Paul: And, and then, talk about what the, what would be some of the attributes of a, uh, feminine superhero that would help bring a refreshing perspective to all the myths we have about what, what makes a healthy woman.
Hilary: I mean, again, I … You're asking tough questions, because I try to think, uh, not in generalities. But again, I'm gonna go with this idea that they, that this was a STRONG … It, it would be similar, it would, the superhero would be non-gendered, I think.
Paul: But I'm talking in, in terms of undoing the stereotype. Not, not necessarily … what it, it would be, but addressing the, the stereotypes that have, that have burdened, uh … male, female, and, and let's do one for people who aren’t binary.
Hilary: Um-hmm. Yeah, right. Again, it would model that, that anger, your anger is fine. You just have to use it constructively, and I'm gonna show you how to do it. And your sexuality is fine. And you just wanna use that in a way that feels good for you. For YOU. And that, uh, as Emily Nagoski says, "Pleasure is the measure." That's what you listen to in sexuality. And that your fears are fine, and use those fears wisely. And your sadness matters. And when you're sad, allow yourself to be sad, and take it at, a moment at a time. And be kind to yourself. And … allow yourself to be vulnerable and allow yourself to be strong. Anything more specific? It's—
Paul: No. No. I just, uh …
Hilary: It sounds sort of so, uh, Pollyanna-ish—
Paul: Yeah, I, I, yeah. And I, and I don’t want to bring this to a place where it sounds like, oh there's a, there's a clear delineation between how one gender should act and another gender should act. It's more of addressing the stereotypes that have become so toxic. You know, they talk about toxic masculinity. So, my idea would be, what would be a great antidote to that stereotype? And the stereotype of the manipulative woman who, you know, uses her sexuality. It, it lays, uh, solely in how attractive she is. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of … role models that could help unwind those tropes. That's what, that's what I was thinking of.
Hilary: Yeah. It's, it's so interesting, Paul, cuz I think of it—I don’t necessarily, I've never thought of it that way. I, to me, what undoes those tropes is emotion education. And everything that I, that I shared in the book—
Paul: It would take care of itself.
Hilary: It would take care of itself because once you understand, and there, and it’s universal how emotions work in the mind and body, and how when we have a core emotion we’re at a crossroad, to bury it and block it and make ourselves sick and symptomatic, or to process it, it works the same in relationships. So, the book and the change triangle—Two people should work that, work the change triangle together. And in relationships and partnerships, you wanna start to recognize when someone is using a defense and in, is in defensive mode, and to be able to gently say, "You know what? Where did we kind of … Do we need to do that? Like, can we just kind of get grounded in our authentic feelings and speak from those and understand each other and ourselves first?" And then, as I tell couples that I work with, if emotions aren’t in the way, there's only two ways to solve conflicts, and that's either meeting in the middle—you know, some, some compromise—or, when you can't do that, taking turns. It's the emotion stuff that prevents people from communicating.
Paul: Yeah. The escalation—
Hilary: Exactly.
Paul:—and, and the idea that I need to win this, this disagreement. It didn’t occur to me until I'd been married for 15 years that … why would I want there to be a … victor and a vanquished, when, as soon as the argument is over, we’re living together? Why, why, why would I want to leave that stench of resentment—
Hilary: Exactly. Aloneness—
Paul: How is that winning?
Hilary: Right. And the rupture that people do. And it's so hard, because anxiety and emo-, and, um, anger speeds us up. And then, all of a sudden, you're like, you're just talking at each other. And again, you know, if, if everybody was raised from the time they were little to know when I get upset I have to slow down. The world would be a different place.
Paul: And it's okay to just, instead of directing your anger at that person, screaming, "I'm so angry right now, I don’t know what to do." That was a watershed moment for me.
Hilary: Yes!
Paul: My, my ex and I were disagreeing—we were married at the, at the time—and I just, I didn’t want to fall into that same trap. And I just remember a=balling my fists up and screaming at the ceiling, "I'm so fucking angry. I don’t even know why I'm angry. I just feel like putting my fist through a wall." And that invited her in to try to help me work through it, rather than di—
Hilary: (Unintelligible)—
Paul:—having to defend herself—
Hilary: Right. Pointing fingers—
Paul:—because I needed to find a reason for me to be angry.
Hilary: Exactly. Exactly. And, um, I love, I love helping couples because it’s so rewarding when you can help people find strategies for a lifetime to communicate.
Paul: And I, and I have to say, in that moment, I felt weak, and I felt like steam was gonna burst out of my ears, cuz it felt so new. But it’s much easier now, because I, I, I think if a disagreement begins to happen with somebody, I have … the experience of knowing what it's like to not escalate. That it doesn’t mean that I'm giving my power away. You don’t … you don’t have to give your power away. Silence isn't even giving your power away. It's—
Hilary: Right. How can, you don’t, you never have to give your power away, because if you believe you have your power you're right. And if you believe you’ve given it away, you're equally correct.
Paul: And I think it, it, it, then it comes back to the thing that you were talking about, which is the authentic us. If we have a sense of all of those "Cs" you were talking about—calm, confident, and etcetera—then we don’t … give it away from a place of fear of loneliness, guilt that we're letting somebody else down. So we can just kind of be grounded and make peace with whatever reality is throwing at us. And, it, it's an amazing—The, the times that I've been able to experience it, life is so less intimidating.
Hilary: Um-hmm. Yeah, it really, really, really helps to be able to deal with your feelings. It gives you confidence because you can handle whatever comes. So … you know, anxiety is all about worry about the future. And what really helps is to know that the future—There's ups and downs in life. And the main thing is not what happens, it's what happens next. It's how you deal with it. And so, it just helps make, makes everybody stronger and more confident to understand, uh, and be able to tolerate what they're feeling without having to discharge in, in ways that aren’t helpful or to block it in ways that really do harm.
There is one thing I wanted to just draw home before we end, which is, when I talk about this and, um … around the country, I know that people think when you talk about feelings and you're encouraging feelings, I think they worry that it’s dangerous in a way. Because feelings have such great power and emotions to destroy and to hurt and to overwhelm us. And so, what I like to clarify is that I'm talking about teaching people how to work with their own feeling internally, and then we actually then need to think and to use logic and rational thought to how best to use the knowledge that we gain when we experience our emotions, which is a wholly internal experience.
So it's a two-step process … of one, becoming familiar with your emotions, and then once you know, okay, I am really angry at my partner. And the, and I listen to the anger and it's telling me why—because I feel insulted. Then I have to think through what's the best way to express this anger. When, in a way that you said, or maybe I don’t. Maybe I process the anger on my own using the techniques that I show in the book, um, like fantasy or just staying with the bo-, with the physical sensation. And, uh, and I decide not to, to do anything gout in the world.
Paul: Yeah. It's, it's like if you don’t understand the emotions that's going on, how are you gonna … pick the best tool to, to use it? It would be like heading into the garage, going, "I'm gonna grab a screwdriver. I don’t know what I'm gonna work on, but I'm just gonna grab a screwdriver." It’s like (laughs) no! Figure out what you, what you wanna work on first, and then, maybe it's … you'll need a hammer.
Hilary: Exactly. Because if you're just willy-nilly acting in the world, then you're not, you, you're not thinking through to see, am I act-, am I taking action that's in line with not only my short-term goals, but my long-term goals. So, if I want a happy relationship—and just because I feel furious right now … if I don’t have any tools to work with that fury, that's gonna be a problems. But if I have tools, then I can be a little more thoughtful of working with my own anger to feel better in the moment, but also know that five years from now, I'm gonna feel good about the way that I behaved in this relationship. And I'm gonna cultivate a home of love, uh, best that I can.
Paul: I heard somebody say one time, uh, a clear conscience is the softest pillow.
Hilary: Hmm. So true.
Paul: And it's so true. It’s so true. The name of your book is, "It's Not Always Depression." And, uh, where can people find you on social media?
Hilary: Well, one: I have loads of free resources on emotions. I have a blog that, um, that I send a, a new article once a month. I don’t spam or do any si-, soliciting. I'm not selling anything, except the book I have to sell because Random House published it. But, so, my, uh, my web site is hilaryjacobshendel.com or you can Google the change triangle. And, if anybody wants, they can sign up and receive my blog once a month in, in their mailbox. And poke through those videos. I, on YouTube, I do these, um, I have lots of videos of full presentations of the, of the change triangle that people can just—I want people to, to use this and share it. And this is a labor of, of love and, and a legacy I wanna leave on this planet. And, um … and then I'm on Facebook. I'm everywhere! Because that's how you have to, that's how you disseminate information. Hilary Jacobs Hendel, blogger and author on Facebook. I'm on Twitter. On change triangle. YouTube channel. Instagram. (Laughs)
Paul: We'll, we'll put all these—
Hilary: I can't stand social media, but I do it—
Paul: It's necessary.
Hilary:—cuz I wanna get the message out. Yeah.
Paul: We'll put the links to all of this stuff. And Hilary is spelled h-i-l-a-r-y. And Hendel is spelled h-e-n-d-e-l. And Jacobs in the middle.
Hilary: Yeah. And the book is available on audio, if you're in your car and you like to listen and you don’t like to read. And it’s available in Kindle and hardcover and in softcover. And, um, it's basically, uh, easy to read. I wrote it to be a beach read, because I, I like books that sort of move along and are interesting. And it's stories and exercises so that you can work the change triangle along with me and my patients in the book and learn a little science without any jargon thrown in.
Paul: Hilary, thank you.
Hilary: (Chuckles) Thank you.
End of Interview
[01:07:16] Really, really picked up some, some great info. Loved talking to her. So go check her stuff out. We'll put the links to all of her stuff, as I said on the show notes for our web site.
[01:07:30] Wanna tell you guys about a podcast. We mentioned it last week, and he's been a guest the show here. I, I've been a guest on his show. The Jordan Harbinger Show. While it might have a slight different approach to the same goal that this podcast does—which is personal growth—uh, it is filled with practical advice, uh, for not only personal growth, but, but, uh, professional growth as well. It's a Apple Top 50 podcast, and, uh, was among Apple's best of 2018. The Jordan Harbinger Show covers topics like, uh … well, there's a guest who is an FBI hostage negotiator, and he teaches how to establish trust. There's neuroscientist, Navy Seals tell us how to develop resilience and mental toughness. And amazing stories from people who have lived them, from crazy kidnapping stories and going undercover, uh … CIA agents, illusionists who can seemingly program our brains. Basically anything that will help you upgrade your brain, so you can become a high performer both at home and at work. I think you guys would, uh, would really dig it. And, uh, also every episode has a worksheet, so you can make sure you're internalizing and applying what you learn from the guests. So, you deserve … to be extraordinary. Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and start taking your life to the next level. And the URL for it is jordanharbinger.com/itunes. Although, uh, I understand that will be changing shortly because iTunes is splitting into Apple Podcast, Apple Music, and, uh, Apple TV. But, um … if you go to jordanharbinger.com, I'm sure you can get more info. And it's, uh, j-o-r-d-a-n-h-a-r-b-i-n-g-e-r.
[01:09:27] Today's episode is also sponsored by HoneyBook. If you run a creative business, you know how to make your clients look good. BUT, if you're struggling with tedious administrative tasks, let HoneyBook do the work and make YOU look good. HoneyBook is an online business management tool that lets you control your client communication, bookings, contracts, and invoices all in one place. If you're a creative freelancer or small-business owner, HoneyBook helps you stay organized with custom templates and automation tools. You can even use HoneyBook to consolidate services you already use, like QuickBooks, Google Suite, Mailchimp. Over 75,000 photographers, designers, event professionals, and other entrepreneurs have saved hundreds to thousands of hours a year. It's your business, just better, with HoneyBook. So right now, HoneyBook is offering you guys 50 percent off your first year with promo code "mental." Payment is flexible and this promotion applies whether you pay monthly or annually. So go to honeybook.com and use promo code "mental" for 50 percent off your first year. Get paid faster and work smarter with honeybook.com, promo code "mental."
[01:10:40] Let's get to some surveys. If you never filled surveys out, please go to our web site, mentalpod.com. And you can fill 'em out completely anonymously. There's about a doffrent, dozen, uh, different surveys that you can choose from to fill out. And they're a big part of the show and really helps us get to know the inner lives of, of people. This is a struggle in a sentence survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Ireland, Please Catch Up." And, uh, her issue is ADD and ADHD. And she writes, "Forever unsure, but constantly determined while forever balancing but always falling."
And a snapshot from her life: "Being called selfish bitch, because my father lost his voice while screaming at me about my 'attitude.' My father has undiagnosed ADHD, and nobody can tell him. The 'attitude' he's screaming about is me staying calm instead of screaming back like I used to before getting my diagnosis and starting medication, all in the UK. I wish I could explain, but this is gibberish to a 70-year-old Irish man. I wish he could ask for help, but this is taboo for Ireland, especially for his generation. I listen to his screaming, and all I have is sympathy because I can see the dark, lonely, undiagnosed place he's in. He loses his voice while screaming because he can't use his voice in Ireland. This country is an incredible place, steeped in amazing history. It produces some of the world's most incredible artists, writers, and musicians. But this country needs to stop living in the past. Ireland needs to recognize its people, too, have mental illnesses, and then Ireland needs to reassure its people that it's okay. Or else, Ireland will just become history." Thank you for that.
[01:12:34] This is a struggle in a sentence filled out by a guy who calls himself "Stay At Home And Do Nothing Dad." And his issues are ADD, anxiety, alcoholism, drug addiction, and sex addiction. And a snapshot from his life, he writes, "My untreated childhood trauma, unmanaged ADD, anxiety, and negative thinking is raging in the face of my new at-home dad status. What with all the isolation and time for introspection. I'm constantly analyzing my behaviors, as well of the lack of many others, in considering how they are going to ruin my daughters for life. I was just vacuuming the living room tonight and heard the unmistakable sound of one of their small toys going up the hose and thought, 'It’s literally the sound of my carelessness ruining their childhood.' PS: I started to write this survey while still in the middle of cooking dinner, and I think I overcooked the green beans." Thank you. Thank you so much for that. Man, I love when, when you guys fill out a survey and you paint a picture of your inner life. And then, there's also something there that just makes me smile. Cuz … in a lot of ways, isn't that just life in a nutshell?
[01:13:52] This was filled out by "Dutch," who struggles with autism. And he writes, "Autism is like living on high alert in any social situation, with people screaming in my head that I'm fucking up being 'normal.' Believing I'm inherently broken and owing my self-hatred and hyper-critical view of myself to the world because it won't accept me as me, but rather the unattainable version of me that will never be enough." There was a psychologist whose name escapes me that wrote that, that very thing as being one of the biggest hurdle that stands between people and peace is, we create this unrealizable version of ourselves, this unattainable, perfect version of ourselves, and then flog ourselves for not being able to live up to it.
[01:14:42] "Mr. B" writes about his depression: "I wanna cry, but even my tears lack to enthusiasm to flow." That's called lazy tear. You’ve got lazy tear. About his compulsive eating: "If the voice in my head is eating, it can't tell me to kill myself." God, these are so good! You guys are just amazing, the … the way you … make—Even if I don't relate to the condition you're struggling with, I relate to the feeling. (Dog barks in background) It's so funny, because on … That's Gracie barking. And on his survey, any comments to make the podcast better? "I would never tell you to stop including your dog's barks in the podcast, but could you perhaps dip the volume on the loud ones? They can be quite surprising, which isn't good when I'm listening on my bike." (Laughs) Hopefully, that one wasn’t too loud.
[01:15:44] This is another, uh … review on Yelp. I found out that there are reviews for, uh, masturbation. And … "TR" writes, "Every time I've done it, I'm filled with guilt and remorse. I hate the things I have to think about to bring me to orgasm. I'm told that means I'm doing it right." "DB" writes, "I'm 96 years old, and just tried it for the first time. Hell's bells, I wish I'd discovered this sooner. I see what all the fuss is about. I was, however, saddened to find out how difficult it is to also be whistling. I hit a lot of very low, off-key notes, which raised my own eyebrows. Not to mention the involuntary limb movements, which scattered my sheet music hither, thither, and yon. I find myself at a crossroads between this exciting new act and the craft of the whistle. I confided in Henry, who is a spry 101 years young and no slouch on the kazoo—though he tends to rush the classics like, 'Buffalo Gal' and 'Oh, Susanna,'—and he let it be known he's had the same difficulty and sets his instrument aside while enacting this marvelous series of pleasureful gestures. Apparently, he's been going to town on his private since Prohibition, where at 11 he learned it relaxed him after his night shifts at the foundry. I'm so glad at 11, I was busy rolling my own cigarettes, stealing apples—which I, of course, would properly shine before biting into—and selling newspapers on street corners to pay my gambling debts." Amazing. Amazing.
[01:17:33] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Formerly Brainwashed By Joseph Smith." He's … in his 20s, identifies as bisexual, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment, never been sexually abused, but he has been emotionally abused. He writes, "I'm not religious anymore, although I was raised Mormon. There's an extremely high focus within the LDS Church for shaming its members for simply being human. Sex is something to be ashamed of. Drinking is something to be ashamed of. Being anything other than straight and white are things to be ashamed of. Having a mental illness is something to be ashamed of. It's still hard for me not be ashamed of who I am, because for most of my life that's all I was taught how to be. My father is a very devout Mormon and he is a very patient, loving man. But he's stuck in the rigid mentality of the 1950s and used to make me feel so uncomfortable talking about my own religious beliefs because, to him, religion is the answer to everything. He also used to body shame me a lot. Sometimes I felt like a human garbage disposal because whenever my parents and I went out to eat, they both offer me their leftovers, and then later he'd make comments about my overly healthy appetite. 'You're starting to look a little chubby, son. Why don’t you exercise more? I think you eat too much. Do you want the rest of this; I'm full. Why do you eat so much?'"
Any positive experiences with the people who abused you? "I dropped out of elementary school, due to complications with ADHD and bullying halfway through the fifth grade, and I fell into a miserable depression for two years, while my parents tried to homeschool me. I felt so lonely and isolated. That is, until I started actively going to church again. I believed in the religious pill they were forcing down my throat, and I was so desperate to feel better about myself I let them do it. I became so enveloped in the religion, I started to become prejudiced towards those outside of it, and I felt absolutely justified in my prejudice because I was told my religion was the only one that had any sort of truth to it. I can't believe how happy it made me and how blind I was to the hypocrisy."
Darkest thoughts: "Within the LDS church, there is a very different outlook on the afterlife than other religions. They believe that after you die, you wait around for the second coming of Jesus in one of two places: paradise or prison. Those in prison have absolutely no chance of release unless they atone for whatever sins they committed during life and fully accept the LDS church as their one true religion. Then, after the second coming, everyone will be separated into three different kingdoms, based upon their works." You know a religion is sketchy when you gotta flow chart the shit. "Then, after the second coming, everyone will be separated into three different kingdoms, based upon their works. The highest tier is reserved for those who lived their lives as perfectly as they could, where 'perfect' is defined by following and adhering to all the rules of the LDS church as closely as possible." Yeah, it's also no coincidence that a lot of the, uh, rules of churches happen to be the things that also let the, uh, hierarchy more easily control people.
"My darkest fear is the fourth 'kingdom:' a plane of eternal darkness reserved for people who learned the 'truth' of the LDS truth and denied it. Basically, it's the Mormon version of hell. How ridiculous is it that the afterlife is treated like a competition! I worry so much that maybe they're right and sometimes I still get a very real anxiety about the way I live my life. I know that religion doesn’t work for me, and I personally fit it a cheap way to control people with fear, but I still can't deny the 'truth' of the LDS church because what if they're right? What if I'm wrong? What if, when I die, I end up in the spiritual prison for the rest of eternity?" Well if, if they were right, how good of a, how good of a heaven would be … would it be if it was filled with people that shamed you for who you inherently were?
Darkest secrets: "I like to cross-dress. It's a sexual pleasure and my wife knows about it, but I feel such an extreme shame from it. Sometimes I wonder if I'm trans, but I'm mostly comfortable living as a man. I've known several trans people in my life and have never experienced the level of body dysmorphia that they describe. I've experience body dysmorphia—Don’t get me wrong; I used to purge a lot in high school, something I don’t think I ever told any of my friends or family. I might have mentioned it to me mom once or twice, but I don’t think I ever came out and say, 'Hey! I feel like a fat piece of shit most the time, to the point where I overeat to feel better about myself, and then force myself to puke it all out."
Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Sometimes I wish my wife would dominate me more. She knows I like to cross-dress, and I dream of her helping me get dressed up and then just taking control. The irony is we're both pretty submissive in bed, and she herself enjoys being dominated. I also like to imagine us finding another married couple to have foursomes with, but I know she's uncomfortable sharing me with another woman. She's told me several times she's a lot more comfortable with the idea of me with other men because she still the only woman I've been sexually active with. I dunno. The fact I like to cross-dress makes me feel like Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. I enjoy researching the lives of serial killers. It’s a dark, guilty pleasure, I guess. I love horror, and there's nothing more horrific than the real world, but I feel like I should be ashamed for cross-dressing."
You absolutely should not. Society has made it feel like people who don’t fit into the stereotypical boxes of gender and sexual preference … are weird. But … they're incredibly common … and, we haven’t … known that to be widely true until recently, not because these people are … suddenly appearing out of nowhere. They’ve been there forever, but been afraid to claim who they authentically are. And my hope is … that … the more people talk about it, the less the stigma will, will be there. "A lot of serial killers had a strange obsession with cross-dressing, and because I struggle with mental illness, sometimes I seriously ask myself if I'm a psychopath, too." Dude, you do not sound like one … at all. You clearly have empathy. You clearly are able to self-reflect.
What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I'd love to tell my oldest niece, who suffers from a lot more than I do, that everything is gonna be all right. Her father is a piece of shit ex-Marine that's abused and beaten her since she was around four, and she's grown up struggling with PTSD all her life. The last time I saw her, she had scars up and down both of her arms where she had been cutting herself for years. My family has such a long history of abuse and mental illness, it's so hard for me to watch it all unfold all over again in my nieces and nephews. I wish I could help her get to a point where she believes she's actually worth something." I would, I would like to say that to you. And I think it'll be easier, uh, there's, there's a better possibility of you being able to help her with that once you experience that yourself … said the pot to the kettle. "I wish I could tell her mother she's that not making it up and have her actually believe me. Finally, I wish I could tell her father how despicable I think he is. I wanna beat him within an inch of his life and tell him to get the hell out of my sister's, so those kids can begin to heal."
What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish I could be comfortable in my own skin. I wish I could better motivate myself to write, draw, play music. I hate that I'm so critical of myself, and I think it's going to take the rest of my life to get over that." You know, in my experience, is it's … it's just the little, tiny baby steps, and we slowly begin to feel a little bit more confident, a little bit better. And it's a lot of two steps forward and one step back.
Have you shared these things with others? "My wife is a very supportive woman, and she's dealt with her own struggles with mental illness her entire life. I'm so grateful to her for her willingness to listen to my worries and fears without judgment. She always, very gently, tries to remind me that I'm not as bad of a person as I think I am. Half the time, I don’t believe her. But even though we seem to go around in circles whenever I get depressed, she still tries to instill a confidence in me that I've lacked for most of my life."
How do you feel after writing these things down? "I feel very passionate. It's easier for me to distance myself from my former religion and my familial problems, but deep down I know I care about both very deeply." And I think that's why it's so hard, is because of that. Because you're a, able to connect. You know, it, that's one of the things that's so difficult about cutting toxicity out of our life, I because at some point we let it in. and, it's not just like flipping a switch. It, it's, it's like letting it go in layers. At least for me, that's how it's been.
Anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Self-care is important. The smallest things can made the biggest difference. Sometimes, even taking a shower seems like an insurmountable task. But if you keep doing the little things for yourself, it makes life much easier. The less you have to criticize yourself for, the better." And I, and I would add … learning to not criticize yourself for whatever mistakes you make. Not meaning that you're not gonna learn from them, but that you're not gonna just continue on obsessing about it and beating yourself up because that doesn’t help anybody, let alone yourself. Thank you for that really, really beautiful survey.
[01:28:13] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Sad, Hollow Chaos." She … is in her 20s, identifies as pansexual, was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened, but I don’t know if it counts. I was in an abusive relationship with a woman who insisted on having sex every single night and in mornings as well, if she could. I didn’t notice it might be abusive at the time and I'm still processing it. But I would feel dread as the evening approached, anticipating the hours of sex when I was already exhausted and knowing if I said I didn’t want to, she would take it very personally."
That is a … is a form of abuse, the manipulation. "I did try doing it, and she would start sulking and withdrawing affection and potentially much worse. I was very intimidated and scared of her, so I usually just went along with it and thought my anxiety and dread about it was my problem and not to do with her pressuring or coercing me. Sometimes I was so tired, I would pass out during sex or drift in and out of consciousness, but she didn’t stop what she was doing. I felt like she just treated me like a piece of meat. She also took pictures of me naked without my consent and refused to delete them." That is definitely sexual abuse, and, and, I believe, unlawful …. he said in most 1950s voice.
(In voice of 1950s Citizen): Well, for god sakes! That doesn’t sound like … something a … good citizen would do.
(Regular voice): Uh oh, is (laughs), is this a new character? (Laughs) 1950s Citizen?
(In voice of 1950s Citizen): OH! Oh, darn it all to heck!
(Regular voice): She's also been physical and emotionally abused. "It's complicated. My mother's a narcissist, and I've only very recently realized this. She has covertly emotionally abused me my whole life, from using me and my artistic abilities to show off to her friends, gaslighting, leaning on me for emotional support during her divorce from my dad, and crucially leaving me in psychiatrist hospital for nine years, not allowing me to be discharged, despite discharge being suggested by doctors. She said no, thus leaving me in hellish, airless, prison-like institutions from the age of 11 to 20. In hospital, I was force fed for months on end numerous times, which involved being sedated with an injection in my butt and being restrained by four or so men usually. Although this wouldn’t be legally defined as physical abuse, that is how I experienced it." And that is ultimately what matters, is our experience of it. because that's what we need to focus on to process it. You know, it’s like we need to temporarily separate what is prosecutable or not, from what hurt us. What's keeping us stuck. What the wound is. You know, if we don’t know what the wound is, uh, how can we begin to, to know how to treat it?
(In voice of 1950s Citizen): Ah, heck, you can't!
(Regular voice): (Laughs) "Although this wouldn’t be—" Oh, she just write that. "It was like being tortured at certain points. I've been out of hospital for two years, in which time my parents have divorced and I went to live in a supported accommodation for women with mental health and homelessness issues. There I got into a relationship with a woman who subsequently abused physically, once restraining me while wasted, leaving me with bruises as I tried to escape from the house to get away from her. She abused me emotionally through manipulation, intimidation, and basically offloading all her rage and hatred of herself onto me."
Any positive experiences with the abusers? "Too many complicated and conflicted emotions to write down here." Darkest thoughts: "I visualize murdering my parents. I fantasize about being raped. I fantasize about suicide. I imagine a bloody and violent murder of my mom. She is a disgusting whore and she fucking deserves to rot in hell." Darkest secrets: "Most of the extremely traumatic experiences I went through in hospital, my parents didn’t see any of. They are not secrets, but I never really talk about it. My dad is a passive, neglectful excuse of a parent, completely oblivious to my deep suffering, and more interested in staying in denial at all costs. Even told me I should lose some weight when I'd just come out of hospital for anorexia." Jesus Christ!
Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I think I'm a lesbian because I'm usually more attracted to women, and I'm disgusted by penises, but I fantasize about BDSM, being submissive, and having sex with a dominant man. I wanna be submissive and have someone look after me. My mind is currently wandering from sex to being comforted and nurtured by a dominant figure. I think I am still anxious about sex, but I am desperate for care." And, in my opinion, focusing on that last part, finding safe, healthy people in your life so you can experience that nurture and care without it being, in the short term, complicated by sex, I, I think that builds, uh, a foundation for later healthy sex, if that's what you want in a relationship.
What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I wanna tell my mum, if I ever see her again, that I hate her. I wanna tell my dad a lot of things, but I think it's best if I slowly detach from him." What, if anything, do you wish for? "Sometimes death, sometimes freedom and happiness, complete freedom, and friends and inner peace. I oscillate between the two. I also wish to wipe my memory clean, to get rid of all the distressing memories, etcetera." Have you shared these things with others? "Some of it with my therapist. I can't talk about it with the people I want to, my parents, because they completely deny my experience, invalidate me, and refute my experience with the 'truth,' i.e. their opinion which they believe is the only thing that matters."
How do you feel after writing these things down? "Tired and upset. There is so much more I wanna say, but I would be talking about it forever." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "I don’t know." Man, you went deep. Thank you for that. And … it sounds like … you are on your way to carving out the life that you, that you want. And it just takes time, and, and a commitment to, to yourself. And, in my experience, it's not a linear process. It's … oftentimes really, really ungraceful and awkward. And those are opportunities to be kind to yourself and accept your humanity. You know, we’re not defined by our mistakes. You know, I would say we’re more defined by the way we handle our mistakes.
[01:35:53] And finally, this is a happy moment filled out by a guy who calls himself "Can Mean DJ Voice Tell Me To Go Fuck Myself."
(In Mean DJ Voice): Go fuck yourself!
(In regular voice): That was actually a bad Mean DJ Voice.
(In Mean DJ Voice): OH, go fuck yourself! Rocking the Quad Cities!
(In regular voice): Happy moment: "A few weeks ago, I was having stomach-churning anxiety." Isn't that the best kind of anxiety, when it gets your stomach involved? It actually sends a little invitation to your stomach. Reserve … the weekend of July 14th. We got a shit show we'd like you to attend. "The kind where it puts your stomach in knots and sucks the will from you. I was on my way to therapy where I felt no better and was eager to talk it out. My therapist recently got a dog and brings him to appointments occasionally, which I don’t mind cuz animals are the best, and keeping my hand on him helps ground me so I don’t dissociate. Also, added bonus, if I get emotional, he licks my hand, like he's saying, 'It's okay.' Anyway, so I sat down. The dog cuddled next to me, and my anxiety almost immediately subsided. And for the first time in a week, I felt at ease. It was then I fully realized how important animals are to me for helping me through my rough moom—" (Laughs) What the fuck is the matter with me?! "—through my rough moments. How happy I am to wake up with my cats by my feet or my little kitten wanting to snuggle in bed, so he snuggles under the covers with me. I hold his little paw, while he purrs and we go back to sleep. It wasn’t until that moment in my therapist's office where I realized the calming effect animals have on me. I've always lived my cats or any animal I've had like they're family. But that moment made me happy and gave me a new appreciation for how in tune my cats are with my emotions. If I'm having an off day, they're there by my side. It's wonderful." Ah, I love that. I love that. And it's a … it's a really easy form of self-love, to let an animal love you. I … my life has improved so much since I adopted Gracie two months ago. Just, she helps me be reminded how unnecessarily seriously I take myself and life in general. And I just—oh fuck, I love cuddling with her!
[01:38:35] Well, I hope you enjoyed … our episode today. And if you're out there and you're struggling, just never forget that, that you're not alone. We are all connected. We can't see it visually, but when we get vulnerable and we create a life with safety and community in it, we can FEEL it. We can FEEL that connection, and that's where … I'm able to take in love, find peace, and, when I'm struggling to accept comfort.
(In Mean DJ Voice): As uncomfortable as it is.
(In regular voice): Anyway. You're not alone, and thanks for listening.
End
PJ Urda
06/17/2019 at 8:17 pmHoly fuckeriny!,, I can’t tell you all how thankful I am for this podcast. It explains everything about how I feel about my childhood. Seriously!!!
For years I have felt guilty about hating my parents. I thought they never loved me. I though they didn’t have the parenting skills to raise me. I thought they loved my brother and not me.
But shit in a mitten! The way they treated me has finally been explained. They simply could not relate to me. I am an Artist. A free thinker. A liberal to excess. If it feels good, do it! Hell yeah! But my parents are intellectuals. They are goal driven. They both worked in the same profession for their entire adult lives. I get hives just thinking about it.
But now I get it. I finally understand why they could not relate to me. I do not care about money and security. I cannot stand the idea of doing the same job every single day. Security bores me but my parents longed for these things. My brother is the same way. I am an anomaly to them. They simply can not understand my way of thinking.
It isn’t that they hated me. It isn’t that they disapproved of me. They just did not understand me and my way of thinking. Holy fuck. This changes things. I can feel compassion seeping in…