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Episode Transcript:
Welcome to Episode 413, with my guest, Becky Feldman. I'm Paul Gilmartin. Let me think about that for a second; who am I? I'm Paul Gulmartin. This is (laughs) … Gulmartin? (Laughs) Let's start this whole fucking thing over. Welcome to Episode (laughs) 413, with my guest, Becky Feldman. I'm Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I am not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site for this, uh, podcast is mentalpod.com. You can follow, uh, me on Twitter and Instagram at, uh, @mentalpod. And Instagram, there's some really great—and Twitter as well—some great posts that a very, very kind volunteer is, uh, doing, uh, where she takes excerpts, uh, from the show or from the surveys and she's doing little Instagram, uh, posts that people are really digging. And, uh, shout out to Brooke. God bless you. God bless anybody who, uh, volunteers or helps the show in any way, whether you're filling out a survey or helping the show financially, I, I appreciate everything, everything that you guys do.
[00:01:38] We have some great surveys. The episode, uh, the interview with Becky is a great one, too. We talk about something that rarely gets talked about, but a lot of women, uh, deal with, which is, uh, vaginismus. If you don’t know what that is, listen up and you'll learn a lot. But, also, a lot about loneliness, self-blame, going through stretches without doing any dating for fear of, of, rejection. Yeah, we touch on a lot of, lot of really good stuff. And as far as the surveys, we have some great vacation argument surveys. We have a survey, uh, about a person, uh, who wants to know if what they did is considered, um, rape or violation. We have a survey about somebody who experienced covert incest by her mother. And we have, uh, an email that I received from somebody who wanted advice because they are turned on by pedophiles. And, um, those are all things that are going to be, uh, read in this upcoming behemoth of an episode we got going. I want to put a little plea out there. Those of you who've been long time listeners of this show, uh, you probably remember an episode I did with my friend, uh, Johnny Olson, uh, a while back. And, he's the one—we used, actually, a clip of, uh, of his episode in one of the opening montages. It was maybe two years ago. And he's the one that says, uh, "I, I will hit the pipe at 3 o'clock, and I will be in hell by 3:45." I might be getting the times wrong, but that's the, the gist of it. Anyway, he's a friend. He's a program person. He is a lovely human being. And his … partner passed away, um, sadly after years of struggling with chronic pain. And, the memorial is this weekend, and he needs financial help, um, with the memorial and the burial and all the stuff that goes with that. So, I'm putting the plea out there. There's a GoFundMe page for it. And, uh, I'll put a link to that under our show notes. But it would mean, it would mean a lot to me if you would, um, if you would help him.
[00:04:18] I learned something interesting, recently, that I wanted to share with you. I don't know if you find it interesting, but I love when I'm watching a documentary, and I learn why something evolved into what it presently is. And I … I always kind of wondered why bebop—that form of jazz where, you know, guys do really, really fast-paced soloing. It's all instrumental. There's very rarely a, uh, vocalist. Like, the, the kind of, uh, most common bebop would be, you know, the stuff when Charlie Parker was at his, his best. You know, playing 300 beats per minute. Anyway, I watched this documentary, and this jazz musician shared that the way bebop came about was, in New York City, the city suddenly put a tax on any bands performing live that had over a certain number of performers. And to get below that number, so they didn’t have to pay this tax, they got rid of the singer. And … so, these guys were just, by necessity, felt like they had to make the show more interesting, um, or just enjoyed the, the room to just kind of stretch out and explore their, uh, fret board or piano keys or whatever it was that, uh, they were doing. But, um, I found that interesting, because I always thought bebop had just come, kind of an egotistical, uh, you know, let's … I suppose some people probably think bebop can be a little self-indulgent. But when it's good, man, it's so good. It's so good.
[00:06:19] I wanna read a couple of things before we, uh, get into the interview with, with Becky. And this is a memorable vacation argument filled out by a (laughs) woman who calls herself "Paul, Will You Be My New Dad." I'm, you know, I'm gonna have to think about it, and I will get back to you, um … And she writes, "On a lackluster family trip to visit our relatives, my mother made an attempt to 'make the trip home more fun' by stopping on the way back for a family whitewater rafting trip. Well meaning, of course. What didn’t she know? There were absolutely no rapids on this particular day. There was barely a current to speak of. What happens to a family whitewater rafting trip without rapids? It becomes a family trapped on an inflatable raft together in the hot sun, rowing laboriously for seven hours. My parents barely skipped a beat before beginning to argue, as was their way, berating each other with criticism for each other's rowing strategies. My brother and I rowed endlessly, as hard and quickly as we could, to reach the end of this god-forsaken river. The next part may sound over-the-top, but I really can't make this shit up. I was about 13 at the time and had not fully mastered the art of tracking my period. Yes, if there is a god, he was absent on this day. Satan was smiling down upon my sad, pubescent body. Seated atop our plastic inflatable prison, my period arrived with gusto and soaked through my white shorts. I still remember the clear expression of surprise and panic on my father's face when he noticed the undeniably obvious stain. My mother's response: 'What, you never seen a period before?!'" OH! Goddamnit, do I love when family shit just gets awkward and (laughs) dysfunctional. In hindsight, I love it. When we can, when we can laugh about it.
[00:08:39] I wanna tell you about one of our sponsors: Roman. I use them. It's—I'm not ashamed, uh, to say that I have mild ED—*erectile dysfunction.* See, I'm, I, I … The fact that I whispered that shows that I still do have a little bit of, uh, of embarrassment about it. But, um, when Roman decided to advertise on the show, I thought, well, I'll try your product out. And, if I like it, um, let's move forward. And, I love it. Roman is a one-stop shop, where licensed US physicians can diagnose ED and ship medication right to your door. You do it online, uh, there's no waiting rooms or awkward face-to-face conversations or uncomfortable trips to the pharmacy. All you do is visit getroman.com/mental. Fill out a brief medical onboarding chat with a doctor, and get FDA-approved ED meds delivered to your door in discreet, unmarked packaging. It, it … I love, too, that they come in individual packets. So, um, for instance, when I'm heading over to, uh, my girlfriend's, uh, I'll just throw a packet in my pocket. Doesn’t that sound like it should be getting, the beginning of a poem, a packet in my pocket (laughs)? But it's super convenient, and it's so much less expensive than it is when I try to get through my health insurance. So, for a free online visit, go to getroman.com/mental. That's getroman.com/mental, for a free online visit. Getroman.com/mental.
[00:10:25] And I, of course, wanna give some love to, uh, betterhelp.com, who has been a long-time supporter of this show. I use them. I love my therapist. Her name's Donna; she's awesome. We work through whatever it is I'm going through each week, and, um, I … it's very nice being able to just completely be myself and, uh, talk openly and honestly about whatever it is that I need help with that week, or whatever ideas I wanna bounce off her. And I'm a big fam of betterhelp.com. I didn’t know what to expect with online, uh, counseling, but I'm sold. I'm a big fan. I enjoy, uh, video counseling. I enjoy not having to get in my car to, uh, to drive anywhere. So, uh, if you're interested, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Fill out a questionnaire and they'll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor, and you can experience a free week of online counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18. I dunno who that voice was that just, uh, appeared there. But I am gonna get a detective on it and I will get back to you.
[00:11:36] And then, I just wanna read this portion of a shame and secrets survey filled out by, uh, a woman who calls herself, "Oh, How The Mighty Have Fallen And Fallen And Fallen." And, she … is a, uh, survivor of, uh, sexual assault. She's not sure if she's ever been physically or emotionally abused. She writes, "My family, especially my mother, but my father to some extent, has always been very invalidating of my feelings, no matter what I say. For instance, even when I try using 'I' statements and being very calculate in how I address something they say that hurts my feelings, my mom will brush it off, saying that I'm not describing reality. Then when I talk frankly about my experiences with mental illness symptoms, my parents instantly jump to my 'defense,' saying that I'm perfectly fine and plenty of healthy people go to therapy (even though I'm categorically not mentally well and have a handful of diagnoses to back that up). I've been resenting it so much lately ever since moving back home after graduating from college and am terrified that I don’t actually know what reality is." And that is gaslighting that your mom is doing. Invalidating a person's feelings. It, it … You know, it's a really subtle way of making it about them. By somebody not … not hearing you out on what your reality is when you're talking about your feelings. It's not like … If had said, you know, "Mom, when you put on that, that, you know, that orange wig and you chase me around the house with a baseball bat …" you know, and, and that never happened, that would be a time for your mom to say that you're not describing reality. And, of course, it would be a great time to (laughs) send you to see somebody. But … um … there's just … it's a very narcissistic way for, for somebody to react to a person who is trying to connect emotionally. Any positive experiences with the, uh, abusers? "Sometimes, my parents and I get along fine. And I'm still financially dependent on them despite my best efforts, so I feel indebted to them." Let me say this as strongly as possible: No amount of financial aid to a child erases invalidating their feelings. None. They're two completely different thing, things, and one does not balance out the other. Darkest thoughts: "Despite being an extremely …" Actually, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fast-forward to, um … What, if anything, do you wish for? "Sometimes I wish I could go into inpatient or intensive outpatient treatment, so my mental health can be my main priority and I didn't have the option of not getting into the nitty-gritty stuff." I encourage you so strongly to go do this. You are … so thirsty for a validating environment, which, in my opinion, is the beginning of healing and having self-compassion and making sense … Trying to survive in a gaslit environment … is, you know, it's like trying to sprint on ice. It's … I encourage you to do this, no matter WHAT your parents say. And what might be good, too, is they might be called upon to come in for family night, and then you would have somebody there who … can back up your reality. And, I think that would be really, really great. And then, any comments to make the podcast better? God, I love this so much. "There should be a survey that tracks how often people listen to the podcast, while playing Candy Crush as a combo coping mechanism for being bed-bound with the crushing weight of being alive."
Intro
[00:17:33] Paul: I'm here with Becky Feldman, who I met through, uh, the show Risk! We did a live storytelling, uh, event. And I came in and just caught the tail end of your story, which, uh, seemed really fascinating. And you seemed like an open person, and so, uh, I said, "This sounds weird, but would you be interested in coming on the podcast and talking about your story?" Because it's something that, um, I know is a lot more common than people think it is, and it's not talked about.
Becky: That's right, yeah. Well, my story was about, um, my struggles with a condition called vaginismus, which is a condition where the muscles in your pelvic floor have involuntary spasms. And that can make sexual intercourse very painful. And, you know, with that there … it can be very emotionally distressing for a lot of women. And so, in the story itself, I talked a lot about, um, like this healer that I went to. And, it was an interesting (laughs), it was kind of a kooky experience, but also a very profound experience as well.
Paul: Well, let's hold off on that for a while. We'll get to that. But let's, let's back up and talk about where you came from and what life was like as a kid, and how you viewed yourself, the world, etc.
Becky: Yeah, well, I'm from Voorhees, New Jersey, which is a suburbs outside of Philadelphia. And, um, I guess what I … you know, would describe myself as a kid. I guess I was a bit of a scared kid. I was, like, scared of everything. And then, kind of morphed into being a goofball, you know, when I got older, to kind of offset the people kind of making fun of me. So, I guess, um, you now … I had my anxieties growing up. But, um, I had two wonderful parents. I have a wonderful brother. And, you know, grew up in a ni-, you know, in a safe neighborhood. So, yeah …
Paul: Was there, uh, anxiety in your family growing up?
Becky: Yeah, I imagine. I mean, I can't really speak on behalf of, like, my, my family. But there, you know, we are all very, you know, ha-, have, ur, neurotic, you know, um, Northeastern Jews, I guess you could say (laughs), so …
Paul: I mean how, how does somebody grow up, uh, in a culture that has, has been persecuted and not have some low-level of anxiety?
Becky: Oh my god. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, I, everyone I know who's Jewish, when I say something, like, very, like, "Oh, god. I, I gotta make sure my purse is zippered." And people are, like, "I get it." You know. Just, like, bases (laughs) weird, like all of your bases covered, in case Nazis come or you, your purse falls out, you know (laughs).
Paul: Yes. In case I'm put on a train I don't wanna go on.
Becky: Exactly, yeah. Um-hmm.
Paul: So where, where do we … where do we begin? When did you first, um, feel like your body was, um, experiencing—not in, not necessarily, you know, the, the things you suffer from now, but that tension or anxiety was on your radar and maybe not as … maybe more than the average kid, your classmates or your friends?
Becky: Okay. Like my … you mean, just like my emotional anxiety?
Paul: Yeah.
Becky: I mean, always. Like … you know, when I was driving over here and kind of, like, thinking about what, what we might talk about, I was, you know, had these memories of like, like I was saying too scared. I was too scared to jump into the pool when I was five, and I was too scared to go down slides. And I hated thunder. And I was just, like, always had like a, you know, this ball of anxiety. And I was kind of fidgety. Like, I would like pick at scabs and stuff. And then, when I got older and was, like, going into like middle school, I started to get very nauseous on the school bus and was very scared to go into school, because, you know, you're teased. Or you're in like a group, a clique of girlfriends. And they're all like the mean girls and stuff like that.
Paul: And you have red hair, which I would imagine is a "kick me" sign.
Becky: Oh my god. Absolutely. And it just gets worse and worse, um, up until it gets better when you're in your 20s and 30s. And there was that. And then, you know, I will say, do, I do, I was diagnosed with depression at 19, and anxiety at 19. But I think beforehand, I did have, like, bouts of sadness. I feel like I always carried some element of sadness. So I can't pinpoint when the depression started, but I do have memories of feeling that way.
Paul: Are there any, uh, moments from your life—and they don't have to be dramatic or huge.—but that just kind of stick with you, where, um, you were just … got a view of yourself, whether it was distorted or not, um, that you think has informed how you view yourself or the world or, you know, maybe moments where you felt, uh, separate or different. Or a moment when you suddenly felt a part of something and it was fantastic.
Becky: Well, I can certainly think of a lot of moments where I felt separate and different. I think, like, one example is I did ballet a lot—which is actually one of the causes of the vaginismus I learned later—of, um, you know, not being the skinniest one there, you know and not being the best dancer and being called out by my dance teacher and being made fun of and bullied in, like, a really negative way.
Paul: Like, like what would they say?
Becky: Oh my god. Well, like, she, like, I have a, a little bit of a pot belly, and it developed, you know, when I was like 12 or 13. And she would, like, be like, "Suck in your belly. You have a beer belly." Or, like, and I was, like, developing breasts. And she was, like, "You need a wooden underwire." And she was just, like, joking, but it's, like, not a okay thing to say to I think a 13-year-old girl. I mean, it's definite, not I think, I know. Um …
Paul: To any. To an girl. But, yeah, ESPECIALLY, especially at that, at that age.
Becky: Yeah. It was really harsh. And it made me feel like I was ugly for a very long time. It became hard for me to look in the mirror and consider myself pretty or attractive. And I think that, those kinds of feelings were like supplemented with, you know, people making fun of the way I looked in school and at camp or wherever. And, um, uh, yeah. And I'm trying to think of, like other moments that kind of defined how I viewed myself. But, I always felt like I was apart from the rest of the world a little bit, where I was, like, kind of on the outside looking in. And that, and that I thought … and I thought that was my role, kind of, in the world, was not being a part of it, but just like peeping at everyone being happy, a little bit.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Almost like they're Martians. Like, what do you, what's the secret? Are you not paying attention? How are you (laughs), how are you able to be happy and free? What camp was that, uh, the, like, Borsht Belt (Becky laughs), uh, summer camp?
Becky: (Laughs) It was, yeah. It was a Jewish sleepaway camp in the Poconos. And I, you know, while I had such a blast there, and I, you know, I started performing there. Like, I did the plays there. And so, I, like, really, you know, that, that was very an important, you know, part in my life. But, you know, at the same time, kids can be terrible. And they, you know, and … I dunno.
Paul: Thank god Patrick Swayze was there to slow dance with you.
Becky: (Laughs) Yeah. It was so … He pointed me out of the crowd of other fancy-dressed people—
Paul: Yes. He saw you in the corner. He said, "Nobody puts Becky in the corner." He took your hand. And then a really long song ensued—
Becky: And then the rest is history.
Paul: —to a montage (laughs). So, when you go to experience, uh, being on stage … was it a moment where you felt like, "Oh, I'm, I'm not necessarily cursed. There's something special about me?"
Becky: Um-hmm. Yeah. I just felt like, I felt alive, And I will say, like, the years prior at sleepaway camp, I auditioned for, like, Annie and like whatever. And I did not make it. But then, just like, one summer, I like went in. And I don’t know what it was, but I just like, let go and like, sang a song. Didn’t sing it well, but, you know, I had the …
Paul: Confidence?
Becky: The confidence. The pizzazz, you know. And just something just clicked and, and it was, um, it was a cho-, so we did "A Chorus Line." But, oh course they had to edit it for a Jewish sleepaway camp. So it was, like, 45 minutes long. All, like, the, the naughty things were taken out, and, like, there's like this one song where … one of the, the actresses is supposed to be singing, like, "I went to church, and prayed to Santa Maria." And they changed it to "I went to shul and prayed to Adonai" And it was just (both laugh) … one of the funniest I've ever gotten to be a part of.
Paul: Oh my god, that's fantastic! That's fantastic. Going back to the ballet thing, um, you, you said that the tension there might have been the beginning of the, the vaginismus—am I pronouncing that correctly?
Becky: Yes, that's correct, yeah.
Paul: In, in what way?
Becky: Well, in ballet, you have to have, like, they call it turnout, where you're kind of, you know, your … your face and your legs are like facing outward. You need to like have good posture and suck your stomach in and really, like, tighten up kind of your core. And when I was—I mean, I'm sure we'll get into this later—but when I was doing, um, physical therapy for vaginismus, um, my therapist said that, "Oh, I see a lot of women who used to be dancers and gymnasts, and they all have to do that kind of like that same position, that same stance, which is why they have, like, tense pelvic floors."
Paul: Oh! That makes sense.
Becky: Yeah.
Paul: Like the little Kegel that could.
Becky: Yeah (laughs). Yeah, Uh-huh. Yeah.
Paul: And then that is the next musical I wanna see you in.
Becky: (Laughs) Yeah. I hope they think Kegel was, like, a Yiddish word for something, and not like (laughs) …
Paul: So, give me some more moments from, uh, childhood or adolescence that you think kind of informed, um, your life, whether you still feel that way or not today. I just love when people come on and they share just little moments from their life. Maybe it’s a beautiful moment with your family or sibling or best friend or … traumatic moment or enlightening moment. Any, anything. I know it's hard to be put on the spot …
Becky: Well, you know, I … There's one moment that, like, kind of … speaks to me right now where I … would have like bouts of sadness. And I didn’t realize that there was pattern on—Like, that it, that it had. When I was in eighth grade, and I was like, again, the goofball in eighth grade. But I had, there was like … two weeks where I was very quiet. And, you know, I remember someone turned to me and was like, "Becky, you're not as loud as, as you usually are. You're not, like, as funny as you usually are." And I was like, "Yeah, I'll start being funny again in a week." And, like, that's how I knew, looking back at it, that I had depression, was that, oh, it comes in patterns and I just, like, knew even then—
Paul: Really!
Becky: —that, like, I knew when I would be sad and when I would be, like, goofball again.
Paul: Did, would that help you ride it out, because you knew it would pass?
Becky: Yeah, a little bit. Or I just, like, it was almost like, okay, I know I'm gonna need this weekend to kind of sleep and … (laughs) you know … just, like, take a break from all of, like, this awful stimulation that, that's around me to kind of rejuvenate a little bit. And then I was, like, "On, Monday, I'll be back to normal Becky."
Paul: Yeah, it's funny, people that have never experienced clinical depression, they don’t realized that even holding eye contact with someone is like bench pressing 500 pounds. It's so exhausting. Yeah.
Becky: Yeah. I had a moment, like, when I was, like, telling a friend, I'm like, "Listen, I'm really depressed right now, and it is, like, taking all of this energy for me to just sit in a chair. I can't even sit in a chair right now, but I'm doing it. But, just know, this is taking a lot of effort (laughs)."
Paul: Did you ever consider going to therapy? Did you talk to anyone about this, or did you just kind of hunker down and …
Becky: I started going to therapy when I was in college. I think … in middle school and high school … I dunno. I guess I just assumed maybe it was teen angst. Like, I think there was a part of me that was, like, "Oh, I know something isn't right," but I didn't really acknowledge that until I was in college. I was having a really hard time adjusting. I knew that the school had a counseling center, and I was, like, "Oh, let me go here." And then they suggested I see a psychiatrist. And then, you know, I saw a psychiatrist. And I went to the therapist there. And then, uh, yeah, then, then I started doing it.
Paul: And did it help?
Becky: It did, yeah. I did start going on medication, which helped. It really did.
Paul: Mostly with the anxiety or the depression, or both?
Becky: First, it was the anxiety, then it was the depression. So I started off, I've been on, I've done the, a bunch of different pills. So I … I, I think I started off with an anti-anxiety pill. And then, the anxiety went down, but then I was feeling depressed. And then, you know, the doctor thought it was best to add on a anti-depressant at that point. And all the while, I'm still going to see a therapist, which, again, that was like, an additional, like it wasn't, like, oh, they just put me on pills and sent me to class. You know, I was seeing someone. So …
Paul: Yeah, which is … so important, you know, because, uh … usually it goes the … clinical depression and anxiety goes hand-in-hand with some type of life event. But not always. But, uh, what do you remember, um, in, in those therapy sessions? Any lightbulbs turning on or anything, kind of being processed?
Becky: Yeah. I mean, when I was first going—again, I'm curious if this is like a Jewey thought—but I was just like, "Oh my god. Should I be here? What if I'm taking someone else's slot? What if there's someone more important than me and I'm using their slot?" And they kept being like, "No." Because I was with a person who was studying to be a therapist. And she's like, "No. You, you signed—it's fine (laughs)."
Paul: (Laughs) That reminds me of, uh, a silly, uh, Celia Finkelstein has a, there's a moment in, uh, her episode, where she shared one of her fears, is that people are only nice to her because they're afraid if they don't, she's gonna kill herself (laughs).
Becky: (Laughs)
Paul: I love when other people share stuff like that because it is certainly not limited to a single culture.
Becky: Right, yeah—
Paul: You know, but oh my god—
Becky: It, it's so human, too, when I hear something like that. Cuz it's like, what a crazy, when you know, not crazy, but like, what a, what a jarring thought. But it's so human.
Paul: Yeah, We can use the word crazy here. We, we … I feel like it's, you know, one of those, one of those words that we're using it about ourselves, we know that there's not malice behind it.
Becky: Oh, that's good. Yeah, because I'm curious if crazy's gonna become the new hysterical a little bit. And, I'm just like, "Well, I don't know. I don’t wanna offend anyone (laughs)."
Paul: You know, as, as much social progress as there has been in the, in the last 15, 20 years, especially around language, there is, are also elements of it that are out of control, and really stifling and, um, I used to feel like I had to make everybody happy in my word choices. And then I found myself just kind of, almost unable to express myself.
Becky: Right, yeah.
Paul: And, and I … yeah. I, I think it's great to reflect on words choices and what might be a word you want to eliminate from your vocabulary. And then there's like, okay, no, that's …
Becky: (Laughs) I shouldn’t say that, yeah.
Paul: Yes.
Becky: It's fine (laughs).
Paul: So … Did you deal with your … feeling of not being worthy of having a slot in, in therapy? Did you bring that up to your therapist?
Becky: Oh my god! I mean, I brought it up to my therapist for two years. Like, I couldn’t … I always felt guilt about taking up someone's slot for two years. Eventually, that went away. And, you know, and then I kind of had to deal with … Like, this is weird, but like having to, I had to deal with having, knowing I had depression, if that made any, if this makes any sense—
Paul: Yeah!
Becky: Like, I get the diagnosis and it's like, "Okay I have it. Now … I have to see myself—"not … yeah, I have to see myself that way and acknowledge that I have this and kind of like … navigate through those waters a little bit.
Paul: I'm glad you brought that up, because that, I think, can be as big of a hurdle as having depression. Because there's something in us that doesn’t want to have something that we will constantly need help for. We will always need a visit for, or a prescription for. And it's why I've tried to go off my meds many times, and it's always been a nightmare. And I will probably try to do it again at some point. But, um, it, it's … I get it. I get that, and, um … Talk more a-, about that from, from your perspective of having depression, and kind of outside of the depression itself.
Becky: Yeah. I mean, I think, having depression is a ve- … for me at the time, was a very isolating experience. You, I ne-, I didn't know anyone else who … you know, either acknowledge that they had depre-, at least acknowledge that they had depression. I was, I felt all alone. And it felt like this like, I didn’t tell any of my friends that I went to, you know …
Paul: So you weren’t out of the cabinet yet?
Becky: No. I wasn’t. Like, I think maybe at one point, maybe I told a friend that I was going to the, um, to the like counseling center and to g-, and maybe took medication. But I was always like, "Yeah, I'm, uh, going for a walk," or like going to the gym. And I think people were like, "She's not going to the gym (laughs)." But, I, I do feel like I … just … having to … learn how to like handle my emotions, I think was hard, because I think there was a long time—and I still have moments where I, I just don’t handle my emotions. I'll just like have a tantrum in my apartment or just burst into tears or, you know … feel very anxious over something that's very not … that anxiety-inducing. Like, sending an email, you know. Like, I still have those moments. And … I, I think, um … Yeah, I think that's what those first two years were like for me.
Paul: What's a tan-, what's one of your tantrums look like?
Becky: I mean, I—oh god, well this happened, ugh! I, um … Recently, it’s been like banging on the table or like banging on a, like punching a wall. But not like, with the side of my wrist. Not right, with like … Like, injure myself. And, I'm only mentioning this because like yesterday, I was—this would happen wh-, when, when, like, if I would get mad that something on my computer wasn’t working. So, I was in a café, working on my computer. And, like, something wasn’t working. And I, like, very lightly banged on the table. But I was just like, freaked out, because I was like "Oh my god. I just brought my internal turmur-, turmoil, like, outward." And I was always so afraid that this was gonna happen one day, where someone would see me, like, lose my mind, even though it was just a ti-, it was probably the weakest of taps. And I (laughs), and like the rest of the day, I was just like … felt so depressed (laughs) about it.
Paul: It's, it's kind of adorable. (Laughs) It really is.
Becky: (Laughs) That makes me feel so much better. Cuz I feel like, "Oh god, am I like this monster (laughs)?"
Paul: No. No. The world needs people like you, the people that are … not as self-conscious as you are and as hard on yourself as you are, but people who are self-aware. And, and that's why I find it adorable, because it's so not interfering with people's lives, you know. And you're surrounded by people talking at incredible volumes on their cell phone about some stupid screenplay.
Becky: Oh, yeah! I mean, they, I could’ve easily been like, I'm like, okay. Well if, if that guy who kind of saw me I, I … like, I came up with a story of like, "Oh, yeah the gears in my computer are a little loose. So I have to like bang on the table every now and then." And, of, course, he's on his like … headphones, not even listening. But I'm like concocting this whole like long (laughs) explanation.
Paul: I love, too, the narcissism of low self-esteem, that we think somebody is going to be interested enough in us to prepare a line of questioning that we need to defend ourselves from.
Becky: Absolutely. And I have to say that I was thinking this story for an entire hour. Like, I spent an entire hour not getting my work done thinking of this, like, one-sentence story.
Paul: Where do, where do you think the, um, feeling like you have to have a defense ready because of criticism, where do you feel like that came from, if anywhere?
Becky: I think a lot of places. I think … you know, from school from teachers, um … from the cool kids, you know. And, when they're like, "Why are you doing that?!" And, and … I think … I think there are a lot of like, instances where, like if it was like a teacher, let's say, and I, and they were critical and understandably critical, like maybe I didn't do a science project well enough or something. Even if they were, like, "You could have done a better job, Becky," like, I would lose my mind. I would feel like I'm, I'm the worst, I'm, I'm hopeless. Even if like I can't really recall like a certain trigger that got me to that point, I always felt like I worked so hard to … to cover up my sadness, to cover up my anxiety, to like look as normal as possible and be a pleaser and be as perfect as possible. And if there was like any dent in that, it was like my life was over.
Paul: Perfectionism is … the worst prison of our own making. And yet, it seems like such … such a good idea—
Becky: (Laughs) Yeah.
Paul: —at the time. Doesn’t it? It—Talk about, talk about your perfectionism.
Becky: It, yeah. I mean, it's not as much … perfectionism—I mean, I wanna please people. I just want people to like me. I wanna feel loved—
Paul: You wanna be not rejected.
Becky: Exactly. I wanna feel appreciated, and I wanna feel like, again, like part of this, this world, you know. Thinking about like seventh grade and, and how horrible that, you know, those years are, like you wanna be accepted by anyone. And type pf group. And, like, I just, I just remember like bending over backwards of like, you know, giving my friends my snacks. Or like giving them presents that I made for them. And the presents had to be perfect because, god forbid that they would like write a note about me to (laughs) someone else, and it would just be … it would be torture.
Paul: So almost like, like you were … bailing water rushing into a boat with a, with a hole in it. Like I, you just … gotta keep hammering away at it. There's no letting go and relaxing.
Becky: No. It was, I was always on. I was always working. I felt like I was never able to like relax, you know.
Paul: If you could go … in a time machine and go back and talk to yourself from when you were in seventh grade, what would you say or what do you—What do you think that conversation would sound like between older you and younger you?
Becky: Well, I think I would first give myself a hug. I think I needed that. And then, I would …
Paul: What kind of, what kind of hug are we talking—
Becky: Just a really long, like "I'm sorry" kind of hug. Just like some sort of, like, "I see you. I feel you." I think that's what I wou-, I would say. Like, "I see what you're going through, and you know … like everything's gonna be okay. You're …" And I would say, like, "You're gonna have moments in your life where it's not gonna be okay, but like, like …" And I would also say like, "Your problems are important." Like, I think some … with a lot of like, when I … see a lot of kids that are in like middle school and they're talking about like, you know … their tests and like their, you know, their social events. And I think like, as an adult, sometimes I find myself like dismissing it a little bit. But I think for a 13-year-old and even younger, like your problems are important. And, and I think I would say that to myself, too. Like, "You have a struggle and I see that, but you matter." You know.
Paul: And what do you think young you would have said?
Becky: I would have been like, "Shut up!" But, um (both laugh) … I dunno. I think my young me would have appreciated hearing someone say that. That being said—I'm going on a super huge tangent right now, but—I was looking at my old journals from when I was in fifth grade, and that was around the time where I was like kind of in that mode of like trying to hang with the cool girls and trying to please the cool girls who were not good people. And, I remember that my mom had a co-, like it was parent-teacher conference time. And, my mom had a conference, had the conference with my fifth grade teacher. And my fifth grade teacher … warned to my mom to like not follow alo-, like tell Becky to not like follow along with everyone else. And my mom had told me that. And, I wish I could have relayed that information, but I just like dismissed it when I was in fifth grade. And, and, and so it's funny you mention that because I was like, "Oh. I should have listened to my teacher. She was right (laughs)."
Paul: Yeah. You pro-, probably interpreted it as, "See, I am different," rather than, "Those people are beneath you efforts."
Becky: Yeah! Yeah. Absolutely.
Paul: Yeah. Which just seems so untrue when we're kids. Because to be part of the popular group just seems like nirvana.
Becky: Yeah. And it's not even like, for me it wasn't even part of the popular group. It was like … just not being alone. Like, I didn't care who it was. It was just like I need to, like latch onto someone, cuz I'd feel like I'd be drowning.
Paul: Do you remember … having a close friend and what that was like?
Becky: You know, I had, I did have close friends. I … I had a friend, you know, down the st-, who like lived, you know, one door down that I would play with. But … I will say that, looking back at my life, I did have a lot of close friends. And then I, we would drift apart. So I think there are moments in my life where I was like, "Oh, that person was my close friend. And then that person was my close friend."
Paul: And would you let people get close to you? Would you share the stuff that was really in, inside you with them?
Becky: I've, I felt like I, when I did do that, I felt like I would scare them away. So I would share something, bare my soul a little bit, and then … I don't know if it's me, if it's my perspective on this, or if it was the actual person. But it felt like they would drift away and they'd be like, "Oh, Becky's too much," or "Becky's crazy or something," or … And maybe I was, you know. Like I, I think I, again, was trying to figure out a way, a coping mechanism to deal with all of these emotions that I had. And I could have pushed people away. Or, and/or I could have isolated. I think it's a combination of both.
Paul: Yeah. I, I hear that so often from, from people. They make that first or second attempt to reveal their inner life to someone and, um, sadly it's met … in a way that isn't ideal. And then they just retreat and assume that the rest of the world is like that. And it's, it's so unfortunate. I wish there was a way that, um … kids in grade school and high school, um … could bond over the inner struggles that, that they have. And I'm sure a lot do, but, uh, I, I think that would be such a great thing to provide kids to, at least bring them comfort. You know, it may not take away the depression or the anxiety or not fitting in. But, boy, that, I mean, the whole reason I started this podcast was to try to bring comfort, uh, to people who are experiencing when I experienced and thought: I was alone and different and hopeless and etc., etc. And, god, the first time I realized I wasn't, it felt so amazing. I, I just … I want other people to, to be able to experience that, that release from, from prison.
Becky: Yeah. I'm so curious what it's like in schools now, where I think depression and anxiety is, is—people are acknowledging it more—what it's like in schools. Cuz if the, like … I'm worried that like when you look at kids, like in my instance of maybe not acknowledging that it's depression, it's like, "Oh, you're a kid and you feel sad—"
Paul: You're moody. Especially for girls.
Becky: Exactly. Yeah! Yeah. It's like, yeah.
Paul: You're dramatic.
Becky: Exactly, yeah! And, I, I, I hope … that the … parents right now or, or adults right now who are interacting with kids that age aren’t as dismissive. Because I think you're right. It would be nice to have like, … a place for kids who do have anxiety or at least fears, who feel isolated, have a place to go and feel like they're not alone. Cuz I'm … I'm sure a lot of us have certainly felt that way.
Paul: Yeah. And … You know, since 2016 … any female or … LGBTQ person, uh, kid, even adult that has anxiety … you look in the news, how can you say (laughs) you're, you're, you're overreacting?
Becky: Yeah. Absolutely. And schools are scary right now And like … kids can be terrible and like, you know, adults could be voting for things that kids don't—I dunno. I, I, it does stress me out a little bit. And I just, I dunno. I hope that, I hope there are kids who are seeking comfort.
Paul: And, and that's why I think it's so important for, for us to have a, a support network, friends, you know. I was in a bad mood before you came here. And I'm … bad moods maybe too strong of it, but I was feeling a little depressed. And, um … I, I can just feel my mood elevating from, from having this conversation. And it just reminds me that it's … our instinct to retreat when we start to hurt is … the very thing that can often make it worse.
Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I—Even when I, you know, if like I'm about to like meet a friend for lunch, not even talk about anything deep, but beforehand I'm like, "I don't wanna leave. I'm depressed." And then, I'll meet a friend for lunch, and then we, we won't even talk about like anything deep, you know. And I'll be like, "Oh. Yeah, this was worth it. I'm glad I got out. I'm glad I had a conversation with someone. This was good."
Paul: Isn't that amazing?
Becky: Yeah.
Paul: Yeah. So, what next?
Becky: Um … uh … Should I talk about the vaginismus? Is that, is that something to get into—
Paul: Yeah, yeah, if you're, if you feel like that's the next, uh … pro-, progression.
Becky: I guess so, yeah. I mean, um, I mean obviously I still have my struggles with depression and that, that whole saga. But, um … So, um … like I said, vaginismus is a, you know, condition where you get spasms in your pelvic floor. No one really knows the cause of it. I, I, I, mean, I think it was probably dance for me.
Paul: And where … I hate to, to get graphic, but I find myself wondering this, where exactly is the, the pelvic floor?
Becky: It is like … good ques-, it's, uh … like, you know, kinda, like it's, like your taint, I guess you could say (laughs).
Paul: Okay. Okay! (Laughs) Put, yeah, put it in layman terms for us.
Becky: Like, but it's like, it, it does cause, like, from my understanding, it does constitute, like, your, like, where your anus is, where your urethra is for ladies. You know, where your vagina is, like in your, your entryway. And, my like pain would be like, like, just past the entrance of like my vagina, is where I would feel very significant pain. Other women feel different types of pain, you know, wherever. And there's like a lot of different kind of conditions that women have ha-, that women suffer with that, you know, no one, again, really not a lot of people know about, not a lot of doctors study. But for me, that was the, the area for me. Yeah.
Paul: And, and, would you experience pain just, uh, in daily life, not having anything to do with … any touching or … you know, sexual intimacy?
Becky: I would feel pain with any type of penetration. So, there was a while where, all of a sudden, I stopped being able to wear tampons. This was when I was around 14 years old. I just … like, got my period, was, you know, off to insert a tampon, and I, it just … stopped. Like, and, so then I … jammed it in there. And felt a, a significant amount of pain. And, you know, would take it out, it would be painful to take it out again. Put it, put another one in, try again, I would feel pain; take it out. And then, with—speaking of like tantrum-esque behavior, I would get so mad and I would be like, "GET IN THERE!" And would just like jam a tampon in. And just be like, "Well, I'm gonna leave it in there until maybe (laughs) …" This makes no sense. And a doctor's gonna be like, "Well, she doesn't know what she's talking about." But in my brain, I was like, "Maybe it'll like fix its way, once it's in there." But of course it didn't. I … my muscles … I felt the pain. And of course, my muscles would tense. And then taking it out would be very painful. And I think since those, that, that time in my life, my body has associated any type of penetration with that pain. So … I did a whole bunch of things. I will—for a while, like, with … this—I did a whole bunch of things in my 30s, let me say. In my 20s, I didn't do anything.
Paul: And, and would you describe the pain as sharp or dull or—
Becky: It was like … It was like a barbed-wire baseball bat was being shoved inside of me—
Paul: OH MY GOD!
Becky: Yeah. It was … And I would feel like, just thinking about it and thinking about that pain now, like I feel like my, like lower abdomen clench and like, you know, like my shoulders and, and all that stuff. That's, that’s what the pain was like for me.
Paul: Good god!
Becky: (Laughs)
Paul: So go ahead.
Becky: So … then—
Paul: And you kept it to yourself. You didn't, you didn’t share it with your mom or your doctor or anything—
Becky: See I … didn't. I didn't because no one … you just didn’t know, you know.
Paul: And you just figured there was something wrong with me, but it's nothing serious. I'm just a … there's another thing about me that's different or broken or what?
Becky: It was, you know, I think I told my mom. Like, "Mom … I can't wear a tampon anymore." And I think she was like, "Just wear pads then." Again, like … no fault of her own. It was just like, well, some people don't like tampons. That's just a, a fact of women. And, with my doctor—again, you know, you're … A lot of women are taught to like grin and bear it. Like, they're like, "Well, any type of penetration in your vagina is supposed to be painful. But you'll just, but it'll like pass in due time, you know." And this is kinda, I guess I'm talking to you about when I started having sex. But, for me, it never passed. And then, I, you know, with (laughs) with my depression and anxiety, I was just like, "Well, like, I guess I'm broken. I'm gonna be a broken woman. And I'm never gonna have sex." And I did not have sex for all of my 20s. And, um … because again, no one is … you know, there's no, like, at that time, there's not like Cosmopolitan article about vaginismus. No one knows what it is. Maybe there's was one doctor in the country—
Paul: They're too busy telling you how to attract the guys.
Becky: Yeah. AND, there's like … which is … still happening now, there is so much research going into like erectile dysfunction or like male sexual like dysfunction as opposed to like really taking the time to like … And I understand that male sexual dysfunction is, is, is a thing, and it should be explored and, and, and men need help. But also, I feel like women have been like vastly ignored.
Paul: Yes. It's usually been about what turns him on, how can we make his orgasm the, the best, etc. But that does seem to be, uh, changing, uh, a bit.
Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think there is a lot more awareness now. And I think there is a lot of like great women coming forward and, and, and putting out articles and podcasts about, about these kinds of issues.
Paul: Yeah. And I deal with ED. And, um … you know, at first I was like, "Ugh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna let anybody know about that." And I'm like, "I didn’t … it's, it's not my fault. Other people have it. And the more shame I have about it, the more …" you know. It, it just continues the, the … whatever, about it. But, I'm 55. I take a shitload of meds. It's not surprising that I have it. And thank god for, uh, the, the pills. Cuz it, it's just makes such a huge difference. I'm able to relax and not be worried about, you know, um, failing (laughs). It's such a strong, it's such a strong term, but, um … yeah. But it, there's no pain associated with it. I can't imagine what it's like being frustrated … with that. And then, having pain on top of it. So did you have relationships—
Becky: No. I didn't. I will say, like in high school, I felt, you know, there, there was the emotional thi-, of how I felt my, about myself, of like I'm too ugly, I'm too, like, loud and unattractive, so I would never have a boyfriend. In college, you know, maybe I would make out with people here and there. And then, when I, you know, tried to have sex with someone for the first, it was very painful. We had to stop. I tried having sex with other people. Again, the pain just wouldn’t go away. And I … just (laughs), 23 years old, was like, "I give up!" You know. And, and then, yeah. Yeah.
Paul: Was the, was the … did you assume that … if you were in a relationship, you couldn't have satisfying sexual encounters without penetration?
Becky: I, no, yeah. I thought that. Because .. again, like you don't think that when you're like 23 that there's like other types. It was always like the end game is like, is intercourse. Like that was the thing. And it was just like all, you know, anything else was just like (laughs) child, child's play. But, you know what I mean (laughs)?
Paul: Yes. Yeah. Paled in comparison. Which is so not true.
Becky: Of COURSE not! No.
Paul: So not true.
Becky: Yeah.
Paul: So, then, what … what's the next … progress?
Becky: Well, I … didn't do anything. I, I will say that I—
Paul: Now were you unable also to experience pleasure by yourself?
Becky: I could fe-, experience pleasure by myself. Like, you know, clitoral stimulation I, you know, was, was fine. But I was just, with men, was like, the, I'm like, "Well, they're not gonna like me if they can't fuck me," you know. Like, it was, it's a sad thing to hear myself and I, I feel, I wanna give myself a hug again. But, um, that was my thinking, you know. And … a combina—It was just this combination of like, what was physically wrong with me, what I felt was wrong with me, you know … aside from my, you know, pelvic floor, I was just like, um, um … "No guy is ever gonna wanna be with me. No one's gonna ever wanna be with me. I'm just gonna be like this … cat lady without a cat (laughs)."
Paul: That's so heartbreaking and so untrue. I'm sure there are guys where that would be a deal breaker for them. But, um … I know there's gotta be a ton of guys who, who, that wouldn’t be an issue for—
Becky: Oh, absolutely! And when I started dating again, you know, when I turned 30, um, um, I, I had yet to deal with the vaginismus. I ended up … getting surgery. And, and now like I’m … am able to have comfortable intercourse. But this was before the surgery, where I was just like, "Well I wanna start dating again." And, I was very clear of like this is all I can do at this point, you know. And, and a lot of guys were really cool with it. And, and I wish I had known (laughs) that they would be, you know.
Paul: What, what did that feel like when, when a guy was accepting, um, of that?
Becky: I … well, I first would be like …
Paul: They're lying.
Becky: Yeah, they're lying. And I'm like, "Oh, they're not gonna call me tomorrow," or something like that. But it, it, it was like … me again would give like this really long … Like I was like experimenting with like, "Do I tell them everything? Do they tell them," like, "Well vaginismus is a female sexual dysfunction." Like sometimes I would start with that. And then like 45 minutes later I would end with, "So that is why I can't have intercourse." Or I would say like, "Listen. I, we're not having intercourse tonight," or, or something. And, um … Most of the times, like, you know, they were fine. Like would these dates or, you know … encounters like lead to something else? No. Where there some guys who were like … oh, you know, that weren’t as cool with it? Yes. But, you know … not that I would see them again, you know. But … yeah. Again, I mean I'm 33. So this has only been like three years into (laughs) Becky the Dating Woman. So, I'm still, I feel like I'm like, a 33-year-old but inside I'm like 17 (laughs).
Paul: Yeah. So … then, then what happened?
Becky: So … Okay, so, af-, so in my 20s, I was like, "I'm not dating again." I took, you know, anti-depressants that like … made me like, like, just lowered my sex drive, like all together. So I was like, "Great. That's convenient. I'll never worry about sex (laughs). Like, I'll just like take these pills and I won't date and I'll just gonna be a single woman," um, you know, forever.
Paul: Plus, if you did have sex with someone, you would be taking the spot of someone else who could be having sex with that person. And that's just selfish—
Becky: Absolutely. (Laughs) It wou-, it is. I am taking up someone, some woman's slot who deserves to be there more than I do, and they would be like, "What are you talking about (laughs)? Why are you calling date slots (laughs)? I'm offended by that (laughs)."
Paul: So go on …
Becky: And then, I … was, you know, like about to turn 30, and, um … I was, I, you know, and I'm gonna, this is gonna sound very rehearsed. This was the start of the story that I was telling, but I was like, you know, I was at home and it, and it, it was like midnight. And I was on l my computer all night, and it was just like, I realized that I spent the entire evening. I was just like, looking over every single, like Yelp review I ever wrote, and was like re-editing it. For like Yelp reviews that I wrote like months ago—
Paul: That is a cry for help.
Becky: (Laughs)
Paul: That is (laughs) a food-based cry for help.
Becky: It really is. And I was like, "Jesus Christ, Becky. You need to go on a fucking date. What are you doing right now?" And I had heard about sex therapy. And … you know, I, later on I went to my psychiatrist at the time, when I was like, "I'm thinking of, you know, going to a sex therapist." And then, he was like, "Well, you should deal with your depression first." And I was like, "Okay." And I went to my therapist at the time, and I was like, "Thinking of seeing a sex therapist." And again, she was like, "You should just deal with the depression first." And I, so I, after a few months, I was like, "Well, like, when am I gonna have sex then? I don't know when I 'm gonna be able to like deal with this, this depression."
Paul: What is my depression never gets better?
Becky: Yeah! Which, I think, like I think right now in my life, I'm al-, I'm al-, it's always going to be a part of, not all of me, but it's, you know, part of me. So then I stopped seeing that therapist and psychiatrist. Saw a new doctor, went to see a sex therapist, and, um, you know, it was a slow process of seeing the therapist and, honestly, feeling like I'm deserving of a sex life. And not even sex, but like deserving of romantic love. And it wasn't just about the physical, the psychical issues of how I felt about myself.
Paul: Yeah. So much of that—cuz I've been to a sex therapist before, too. And it's about intimacy with self and then, and then with others.
Becky: Yeah. And, so, I, so I did some work with the therapist there. And then, it kinda got to point where I was like, well … like, you know … so, then, you know, there's like the physical work you have to do. And so, with vaginismus, you … there's different toys. There's different, like, exercisers. And so, one thing I got was, um, dilators, which was like, it looks like those Russian nesting dolls. But it's like phallic (laughs) things. So you get this in the mail—
Paul: Oh, right. So it just slowly—
Becky: You just slowly use that. And, I, you know, hit a wall around like the third dilator. And I was turning back into that like 14-year-old with these dilators, being like, "JUST GET IN THERE!" And feeling pain again. So then I think I did myself a disservice with the dilators, because again I was associating any type of, my body was associating and type of insertion with pain. So then, the sex therapist sent me to—sent me—she suggested and got in contact with, uh, a sexological body worker, which is what my story was about, which is a, it’s a spiritual practice. It's, um, um—
Paul: Is this different than a sexual surrogate, or is it the same—
Becky: This is different, it's, it's different from a sexual surrogate. There's no like intimacy between you and the other person. It's, the person is working on you. Like you're not allowed to touch them. It's basically a lot of massage. It's Reiki. But it is like pelvic floor massage. And … if you want, it can be something that helps you, you know, discover your pleasure sensors in your body. I did do some like pel-, like pelvic release work with him, where he, you know, massaged, you know, the area. And I felt pain. But, I also like, was like, hey, I will discover, you know, my, you know sensual places on my body, because it had been 10 years, you know, since I had interacted, had any type of like physical contact with anyone. So, they do, so a body worker will, like, do sensual touch. Sometimes you have an orgasm, sometimes you don't. The first time I went, I did have an orgasm. And afterward, felt disgusted with myself. I got very depressed afterward because it's so, it's alternative healing, but the most alternative healing that I could possibly think of at that moment. And I felt like I just got a happy ending massage, and I felt … really ashamed of myself.
Paul: Like you … had exploited someone, or you were … pathetic?
Becky: That I was pathetic.
Paul: Right.
Becky: Yeah. And … you know, I—
Paul: Was that your first, uh, orgasm with a, with a …
Becky: With another person.
Paul: With another person?
Becky: It was.
Paul: Yeah, well, I mean, how can not be a mind fuck?
Becky: It wa-, oh thank, it was! Yeah! I … it was a mind fuck. That's the right term for it, because, I felt like, it was so weird, like the orgasm happened. And afterward, like it was like … it happened and the first thought in my brain was like, "See, Becky. Like you, you can do this. You can have an orgasm with another person." And then like two seconds later, was like, "OH MY GOD! WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST DO?! Like I just let this random stranger just like, rub my clit. Like, and I paid him like 500 dollars. Like, what am I doing?" And that's how I felt like the rest of that weekend, up until seeing the sex therapist again, where … And I did tell a friend about it. And she was, you know, who had suggested actually seeing a sex therapist to me. And like, you know, there were people who were like, "This, what you did was good!" But it took me a really long time—
Paul: And BRAVE!
Becky: Yeah! I guess it was brave.
Paul: I mean … there's no … I guess! That's fucking brave!
Becky: (Laughs) Thank you.
Paul: That's fucking brave. I mean, you … you were in a difficult, difficult situation, you know? I mean, that's, that's amazing. And then you have the first … experience of your life, all of that stuff built up. All of those feelings, all of those questions, and then you have it, and it's with somebody that you can't … make out with—
Becky: Right. Yeah—
Paul: —and cuddle up with. And all the fun stuff after you have sex—
Becky: (Laughs) Yeah, there's no like pillow talk afterwards. It was like PayPal (laughs)—
Paul: It made me kind of sad, hearing that, thinking about somebody being alone after that … that moment—
Becky: Yeah! I mean, the … you, you're so right about that. Because I ended up going back two more times. He did not cure the vaginismus. I, I, but I went back two more times, because I was like, "Okay, got this first one out of the way." Cuz I was like, "What the fuck is gonna happen? I go in. Like I know who this guy is. I know what his house looks like. I know his, like, routine—"
Paul: And is he just total New Age guy?
Becky: Oh my god, yeah! Like beyond New Age. Like, if you—
Paul: Picture of his yogi?
Becky: Yes! He's like a yogi, he has like a ponytail. Like, you should see his, his, cuz he, he has a studio like in his home, and it just like … is like … there's a gong, there, and he bangs the, he bangs the gong. And like (laughs) …
Paul: Did he use the word sacred?
Becky: All, all the time!
Paul: Oh my god. Howe did you have an orgasm with somebody using the word "sacred?" You must have REALLY had a lot of pent-up sexual energy.
Becky: All these tiny orgasms in me that was like, "We're gonna get out any way, shape, or form—"
Paul: We don't care!
Becky: When, so, like … he … so like, it's starts of as a regular massage. And then like at one point, like when he takes, he … he asks you, "Can I take the blanket off? Can I touch you here? Can I—" Like, there is a code of conduct, obviously.
Paul: And you know, going in, this was something, and that there, you would have consent along the way.
Becky: Absolutely. I mean, we had to do phone consultation first. And when I walked in, we had another consultation. So, there, it really was like … Sometimes when I describe it, they're like, "You just let him do that?!" I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no!" But when he was like taking the blanket off for like the sensual portion—it was time to get sensual and sacred—he like banged on the gong so loud. And I swear to god, like the whole, his whole street could have heard this gong. And he starts like, slowly peeling like the blanket off of me. And the whole room is vibrating. And like, I, I, like I, car alarms could have been going off and like dogs were barking. And it was like, do these people have like any idea of what he fuck's going on (laughs) in here right now? Cuz it was like, his place was like in a suburban town. Like, nice families. And then here's this guy who's just like, you know, giving people orgasms (laughs) for money. I dunno. Well, it's more spiritual than that. But, yeah (laughs).
Paul: And … did your sex therapist recommend him?
Yeah. Yeah. She, she recommended him. And then after that, um, she, there, I learned that there's also just like physical therapists who help with, with vaginismus and other types of pelvic floor disorders. And so … after …
Paul: And those are non-sexual.
Becky: Non-sexual. It's just like they're, (laughs) they're doctors, um, they … they, you know, will touch like pressure poi-, like, you know, trigger points inside of you. And, and, and to help you relax with the pain. But, yeah, that's not sexual at all. That's just like kind of a … I guess a massage. But I also did like yoga stuff, too. And then, after that, um, I ended up getting surgery. I saw this BuzzFeed video about women who have va—This was the first time I, like, was like, "Oh my god! Other people have vaginismus! There's a BuzzFeed video about women who get Botox in their vagina for vaginismus. And I was like, "I wanna do that." So, I—
Paul: But it doesn’t get rid of the wrinkles.
Becky: It doesn't (laughs), yeah. It's like, (laughs) …
Paul: That as just sitting there, Becky.
Becky: Yeah, I know—
Paul: How could I pass that by?
Becky: I feel like, my joke is if I ever got Botox in my vagina, I would say that my vagina shows no emotions anymore (both laugh). But I ended up, and I'm so mad, cuz I didn't get Botox. (Laughs). I do like the wrinkle thing, though, that is funny. What was I gonna say? Oh, so I find this doctor who, who does that. I go in for a consultation, and he looks at my vagina, and he was like, "Listen. What I can do is—" You know how there's those surgeries that women get, that like they tighten up their vagina? I did the opposite. I got an opposite vagina-tightening surgery, where he basically shaves my hole, I guess, wider. He noticed that there was still remnants of my hymen still there. And so, I ended up getting surgery to, to remove and make myself wider a little bit.
Paul: Right.
Becky: Yeah. And that was the, that was the kind of the … physically, the final leg of dealing with the vaginismus.
Paul: And, is there a name for that type of surgery?
Becky: Yeah. It's a perineoplasty. Yeah.
Paul: And, was recovery painful?
Becky: It was … no, not at all. Um, I—
Paul: That's amazing, because it sounds like it would be … like—
Becky: Horrifying.
Paul: Horrifying.
Becky: I mean, it was, like I didn't … It was like, like yeah the stitches were like in my vagina. But like they weren’t like deep stitches in my vagina, if that makes any sense. Like … I had to take the rest of the week off of work. It was difficult to like dri—One thing, they were like, "You can't ride a horse. Don't go horseback riding." And I'm like, "I never go horseback riding. But like, oh my god, what if I need to go horseback riding the day after for some reason?" But, like … yeah. Like I had like stitches in my vagina. It wasn’t, it was like I couldn’t wear jeans for a while. For the next couple of days, I was like lying on my side a lot, like a bathing woman—
Paul: Did you get some, uh, 1940s headshots at the same time? Cuz you might as well.
Becky: (Laughs) I might as well. I went by, went by a pool … wore like one of those like, old-timey bathing suits (both laugh).
Paul: Had a couple of troops standing around, saluting you.
Becky: Yeah. It was just so, what a wonderful photoshoot.
Paul: And everybody smoked.
Becky: Everyone, oh of course! Yeah. Really long cigarettes. And, uh, simpler times; it was so nice. Um … um … Yeah, and then, you know, it took a while to heal. But then after that, um … once the stitches were healed, you know … I went back to the doctor, and they were like, "Okay. You can do dilator therapy again, but do it with vibrators. Like, do this therapy, not just get something inside of you. But do it so you feel pleasure. You know, this should be fun." He didn’t say it in those terms, because like … it's a male doctor, and he can't be like, you know, like "Go give yourself orga—" Like, it was just like, feel stimulation. And I think like what he was saying was like you need to associate sex with pleasure, not just with, can the guy get his …
Paul: Physical therapy.
Becky: Exactly.
Paul: And ponytails.
Becky: Yeah (laughs). It's like, it's about Becky now. And, and … so, I did that. And then … you know, had sex with people. And now, I am in a weird phase with it right now, because like I've associated myself, my identity negatively for so long, as this woman who can't have sex. And now, I'm this woman who can have sex, and I'm just like, "Well, what am I, what am I doing? Who am I?" It's really weird. I'm in this weird phase.
Paul: That's interesting.
Becky: Um-hmm. (Laughs)
Paul: Yeah. I was just kind of mulling that over, that … it never occurred to me that that would be … something that would be a remnant of it, that it would be hard to, um … re-identify who, who you are. But I mean, is that even … necessary, or is that just something that kind of plagues you? Like, who am I, if I'm not that?
Becky: Yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely plagues in me. I think for so long, I was like, Becky the Frigid Woman. Becky the Single Woman. Becky the Non-sexual Woman. And now I'm, you know, having sex and, and it's like being this woman who is dating and, and, you know … not (laughs) wearing frumpy clothes. And, it’s just, it's so bonkers to me. And I'm like trying to like …
Paul: Is it exciting?
Becky: It's scary. I'll be honest with you. It's really scary.
Paul: What, what do you … what scares you?
Becky: I'm scared about—Well, first of all I'm scared about getting close to someone, not even intimately, but emotionally, cuz I have depression and I have anxiety. And, and, you know, I'm gonna have to reveal myself to a person in that way. And then, there's also, like, being with someone and being like, "Hey, I'm not as experienced." And I'm really self-conscious about that. I mean, granted there have been, I've had wonderful occasions where it's been nice. But, right now, that's, I'm still kind of dealing with that a little bit.
Paul: I, I, I can tell you from a male perspective (clears throat), I have never heard a friend of mine, and I have never said, "I like her, but she's sexually inexperienced. And I don't, I don’t wanna go through the hassle of, you know … showing her where it feels good."
Becky: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul: I've never, I've never heard of that.
Becky: Right. And that's what a lot of people tell me. But it is like … *sighs.* I dunno. It just, just, I mean, you're, I'm so vulnerable to begin with, when you're with someone. And then it's like … *sighs* …
Paul: Are you afraid of being hurt?
Becky: Like physically, or like, or emotionally—
Paul: No, emotionally, that, that you, you're in a vulnerable place and that that means that you can be disappointed again?
Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm afraid of like hurting someone else. Like, I think … I … I dunno if this correlates, but I have really negative self-talk. And, and—
Paul: I think that's apparent.
Becky: Yeah (laughs).
Paul: I think, I think the last … 59 minutes—
Becky: Yeah (laughs). Yeah, yeah. And I'm worried, what if I like carry that onto another person. Like, what if I get so, you know, like I dunno. Like, I'm, I'm worried ab-, about … I have like my own shit to deal with and I get angry and I have mood swings and all that stuff. And god forbid someone were to see that, is—
Paul: Someone were to see that you're a human being—
Becky: Yeah.
Paul: —that has ups and downs like the rest of us.
Becky: I know. I … yeah. I can't, I can’t believe how other—How do other people like do it?! Like (laughs), who are these CRAZY people?! (Laughs)
Paul: You know, it … I struggle with a lot of the same thought patterns you do, maybe about different things. But, the thing that they have in common with … what you are describing is … they are all based in the future. They are all fears based in the future. And it is such a waste of time to try to plan our present-day mood on the crystal ball we're looking into for the future. Which is almost never accurate.
Becky: No! And it's such a waste of energy, and I spend, I'm gonna say 99 percent of my energy thinking about the future.
Paul: And aren’t some of the, the greatest moments of life things that we could have never predicted would, would happen?
Becky: Yes! Uh-hmm.
Paul: And we never think about those. We never future trip and go, "Boy, bet there's gonna be some great surprise that's going to, uh … enlighten me and bring me a deeper sense of meaning and connection." Never!
Becky: Right. No! Yeah.
Paul: You know, it's always, uh, "I'm gonna be rejected. I'm gonna be alone. I'm gonna die penniless. And I will … my last breaths, I will be staring at the sky saying shoulda, coulda, woulda."
Becky: Yeah. Um-hmm.
Paul: And that is like the cruelest thing that you can do to yourself. You know what? I, I … think would be awesome, uh … for you, would be to read the book "A New Earth," by Eckhart Tolle.
Becky: Okay.
Paul: It's a little, there's some stuff in it … there's some language that's a bit New Agey. But it's most … one of the most profound things I've ever read, in terms of helping me identify the negative voice in my head that wants to try to control the future.
Becky: Yeah.
Paul: And, it's a great book to read, like two pages of in the morning when you wake up. And it really, really, helped me. And I think that, I think that might help you with the wanting to project to, to stay safe. You know what I mean?
Becky: Yeah. I think what else that is also that I'm kind of dealing with feeling like, I am … worth of having sex. And, and, and deserving of having sex. And I think like, that is also what I'm like going through right now as well, is like, and that has nothing to do with like … a vibrator, you know, a person is just, it's all with how I'm viewing myself a little bit of like … And I think, obviously, it's indicative of me valuing myself outside of sex, as a human.
Paul: You know, something that is … really uncomfortable is when we don’t love ourselves and someone is standing in front of us trying to love us. That … you know … I've, I've been working on that for years. And … I can tell you that progress can be made. And I'm now at the point where I am experiencing that. And it's fantastic! But I had to work my ass off in support groups, in therapy, to get to the point where I don’t lose respect for somebody who sees me and loves me. And I think that's, that's there for you and for anybody who's listening. Plus, you deserve to give it a, a shot. You know, you're … Just the hour that I've, I've spent with you, you're a lovely person. You have a great personality. You have a great sense of humor. You know, you're … yeah.
Becky: Well, thank you (laughs)!
Paul: Yeah. You … I really, I really … And I hope I'm not coming across as like pontificating or pompous or talking down to you.
Becky: No, not at all. It's interesting, cuz like I, you … the steps I've taken to like help with my vaginismus, and I'm sure it’s like this with other people, is like when you get help, it's an act of self-love. And, and it's … but then, you're also, at the same, being like, "Well, I don't deserve self-love." And so, you're kind of at odds with yourself a little bit.
Paul: It is! It's a, it is a war for a while. And it's like, am I a piece of shit, or am I lovable?
Becky: (Laughs) Only two.
Paul: Yeah! It's that black and white thinking, man! It's, it's so … You know, what I like to think of is I'm flawed, but lovable. Or flawed and lovable. You know?
Becky: Yeah. I like "and."
Paul: Yeah.
Becky: Yeah. Flawed and lovable.
Paul: Yeah, cuz "but" is kind of, sounds kind of conditional.
Becky: A little bit, yeah. But, you know …
Paul: Who isn't, who isn't flawed?
Becky: I, I can't think of a single, a single person (laughs).
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for sharing, uh, all that stuff and being so open and honest and, uh, talking about such a, um, uh … an important and rarely discussed, uh, topic.
Becky: Well, thank you. I'm …very honored to be on. I mean, I started listening to this podcast years back when I was like … "I wish there was a podcast I can listen to that was about mental illness." So … it's just an honor to be here.
Paul: Oh, wow! That means a lot to me. Thanks, Becky.
Becky: Thank you.
End of Interview
[01:24:30] What a delightful lady! Really enjoyed talking to her. And, I was just a guest on her podcast. It won't have aired probably yet when you hear this. I don't think it's gonna air for a, a couple of months. But, uh, she has a podcast called "Too Stupid to Live." And it is a book review of romance novels. And so, she had me on, and I … talked about a book I had … been suggested to read by my college girlfriend when I was in college. And rereading it, I was like, "My god. That is the worst book I've ever, ever read." But it brought back a lot of memories. And I, I think we had a really interesting conversation, too, about how sexuality is portrayed, uh, in literature. Can you use the word literature for romance novels? I dunno.
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[01:29:03] This is a memorable vacation argument filled out by, uh, somebody who didn't fill their name out. *Shame on them!* And they write, "On our honeymoon in Cancun, it got deep pretty quickly. I said by him not wanting to know about my past experiences with sex, it made me feel unwanted because it is a huge part of me. I have trauma, addiction to porn and sex. I have addiction to sex and porn at one point. It then escalated to him not wanting to understand my mental illness. It felt as if he had a picture of who I was, but it was all just a half-picture, and he doesn’t fully see who I am. And the mental illness, I'm pretty sure he assumed I would grow out of it or something. From his point of view, I was having a meltdown. But for me, it was the first time I could express it after seven years of being together. I tried before, but he doesn’t get it. Urgh! Now I am mad. I just remember the hiccups and the tears and snot, and my whiny voice, and the hotel bathrobes messed up with my mascara. Beautiful beach, though!" (Laughs) That might have been the most perfect way to just … put a little button on a, on a survey. There, I mean, that's why I created the survey. There is something about … vacations that bring out the best in us or the worst in us. Or, you know, we wanna poke the bear or feel like this is the time that we need to discuss this thing. Just seems like it, it, it just cra-, it just intensifies, intensifies the anxi-. I always say, if you are thinking about marrying or living with somebody. Go one vacation with him for 10 days, and that will be a crash course in how it is to, um, communicate and compromise with that person.
[01:31:03] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a guy who calls himself "Red." And … he is—let's see how old he is. Sorry, my elbow is, uh—straight, he's in his 20s, he was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. He's never been sexually abused. Although he writes, "Although I do have some bizarrely-specific panic attack-inducing triggers related to depersonalization. Depictions, bad drug tips, despite my ongoing casual drug use. Vampire-ism, other forms of mental co-option, etc. Without any real origin point I can remember, which makes me wonder." I'm not ever sure I understood what half of that meant, um, but I don’t have to understand the, the, the rest of your survey. He's been emotionally abused. He writes, "When I was young, my mother struggled a lot with anger, escalating to screaming at tiny irritations. It was often very scary and I would frequently burst into tears, which she would try to delegitimize as an unfair thing to her. The same thing happened to food. She wasn’t the best or the worst cook, and any negative reaction I had to her food was treated as me just being dramatic. My mom was also a very smart academic, and she was easily able to debate me into feeling bad about any expression of distress towards her. So I grew up trying to repress every anxious response, hating myself for not being able to—which, as anyone with anxiety can tell you, is a vicious fucking circle. For a long time, her screaming seemed like too stupid a reason for me to be so anxiety-ridden and suicidally depressed. And it took until I graduated from college to really understand the way she unconsciously grabs at the emotional and logical high ground by pushing people's buttons and denying she's going it." And you know what? In her mind, she's probably not even … being truthful with herself, either. That's the, the fucked up thing about, about people that are emotionally hampered, uh, or terrified, that they don’t wanna open that trap door to another point of view or to recall experiences from their past they don’t wanna deal with, is they just, they just have their own reality and what they think is appropriate. And you know what? That's totally fine, as long as they're not a parent, um, and, and if they're … they're not, then, you know, we can, we can get away from that person. We can set boundaries. We can say, "You know what? This relationship's not working for me." But when we're stuck with kids living with that person, it kinda sucks! And, we also usually don’t know that there's some type of dysfunction going on. So we, so we blame ourselves. But the good news is, is, you know, once you become an adult and you're 18, if you're not financially dependent on 'em, um, you can say, "Hey. I've had enough." Any positive experiences? "We actually have a good relationship now. A lot of the things I like about myself—love of books, dark sense of humor, writing ability—come from her. And as I've gotten distance, I've been able to appreciate that more. Her anger has mellowed out mostly, and I've gotten better at disengaging from her button-pushing, too. But we can't really spend longer than a week together without at least a minor blow-up." A week? Fuck. That, that's a marathon, to me, with family members, um, and most people I know. Most people I know, like two days, 48 hours, is like the, if you're gonna spend time with family. Anyways … "There was thin time when I saw her as this huge villain, and I struggle a lot to see her as a person while also being conscious of the abuse and the prison of self-loathing and anger it trapped me in. I haven’t really talked about it with her, and I know I should, but it's so much easier to talk to my dad about it than bring it up with my mom. I don't if I'm at a place where I can talk about with her without triggering a screaming argument." You know, from what you—I've read your survey, uh, your survey, obviously, previously to this, and my sense is that it … probably would not be taken well. But, I think as long as you don’t get your hopes up, um, because she, she just really, truly sounds like somebody that, um … There's just a block, you know? There's just a mental or emotional block, where criticism cannot come in. Darkest thoughts: "I am enormously jealous of my friends when they're in the honeymoon phase of new relationships and often enjoy giving advice when they're on the rocks, because it makes me feel more emotionally stable. I think the advice is good, but I worry about the motivations behind it. I want them to be happy, but I'm also really afraid that I'll never love someone who loves me back. My life is filled with unrequited crushes. I can see that intellectually as a defense mechanism against emotional intimacy. But I can't seem to stop doing it, and ever time my friends pass up an invite to hang out with a new partner, it feels like a knife in my ribs. I want to want them to be happy, but I often find myself rooting against them, despite myself." I think a support group for, uh, struggles with intimacy would be a great, great idea. And, um, if you reach out to me via email, I can suggest a couple, um to you. Or you can do some searching online. But, you know, I, I, I think something maybe around, um, love addiction might, might be good. And not trying to pathologize this, um, as like, oh you have this. But, going and checking out a couple of meetings, you might find out if you relate to what other people are struggling with. Because, you know, when … the … primary role model of the opposite … gender, um, is as gaslighting as your mom was, um, it's … it makes it really hard to have a good picker, when it comes to looking for a partner. And there's a lot of unwinding of issues and feelings to get to the place. And I know this from, from personal experience. But it can be done, and it's worth all the work. Darkest secrets: "When I was in college, my roommate accused me of rape. It was a one-time hook-up, following a long, emotionally intimate conversation that involved alcohol. But the night of, and for months afterwards, I would have described her A) as the aggressor, B) enthusiastically consenting, and C) totally lucid and communicative. Until the day she texted me out of the blue at 5 AM, claiming that she was unconscious. Now, she was very conscious, but that doesn’t mean she wasn't blacked out." For those of you that aren’t familiar, somebody can black, be black-out drunk, meaning they are … to, to somebody else, seem to be in their right mind, but that person is not completely there. And they can even be speaking in a way that where they're not slurring their words. I know many people in my support group who would wake up in the middle of a black-out and they're driving. So it's like they're body is functioning, but their, their real authentic personality, um, for lack of a better description, is not there and awake and, and in control. "She has worse mental health issues than me and is often on very strong rounds of medication. This year, the year before, at one of our friend's birthdays, she suggested strip 'Never Have I Ever,' and the next day claimed that the alcohol had interacted with her medication and caused her to black out without anyone noticing. I know this can happen to people. I do not know what medication she was on the night we had sex. I do know that she had sex with me as a favor, because I was still a virgin. She made me tell her how grateful I was afterwards—" That sounds kinda fucked up. "I do know that I had an unrequited crush on her during our freshman year that she saw me as beneath her physically. I do know that as school went on, I came to know her as an unreliable, dishonest person, whose accounts of her personal life sharply diverge from those of neutral witnesses. I know that she texted unprompted the morning after, expressing that she was happy it happened and saw it as a one-time thing. I know that I was on the same page. I know that it was soon after she found out that some of our friends knew we hooked up. We had not discussed discretion at all, and I told a couple of friends because it was an important moment in my life to me and I wanted to share with them. We were all in a student theater group together, so it spread, but not far. It was months before she knew that I hasn’t kept it completely under wraps. I do know that while false rape accusations are rare, they do exist. And it's possible that, ashamed of having hooked up with me, she changed her mind about what happened. I also know that it’s possible that while I participated in the act, believing I had knowing, enthusiastic consent, I was having sex with someone who was not consciously inhabiting their own body. She never made the accusation public beyond our friend group, who mostly either refused to pick sides or believed me. And I stayed roommates for the summer after that, but she was angry, and I was defensive, and we never had a real conversation about it. I've reached out to her in the ways that I can—we blocked each other on all social media—and got no response. She doesn’t owe me closure, but I don’t know how to deal with these feelings without it, and I don’t know how to talk about it with other women I'm romantically interested in. I haven’t had to share it like that, and I'm terrified of the loathing and scorn I might provoke if I do. I want to go to therapy and talk about it, but I can't bring myself to. I've always had an easier time talking and relating to women, but I'm scared that if I go to a female therapist, I'll either trigger them or find out that they hate me when I tell them. I don’t wanna go to a male therapist, because I prefer talking to women. But deep down, I know that I'm looking for absolution and don’t believe that I can get it from a man. And it's fucked up that I believe a female therapist would have the power to absolve me, just because she's a woman. And I'm suspicious of the feeling that I need to be absolved, because it makes this all about me or like I'm allowing my accuser to define my narrative in a way I believe is untrue. On balance, I look at everything I just write, and I don’t think I'm a rapist. But I feel like one, no matter how hard I try not to. I feel like even knowing for sure that I was a rapist would be easier than this perpetual ambivalence. But that thought scares me just as much as the other ones." You know, there, there is a lot here that, that you have shared. And I … I have to say, you know … while … only you and her will have your knowledge or realities of, of what it was that happened, um, you sound like a god guy, you know. And, and … ultimately that's what matters, is that you are … woke. And … who knows what is going to happen, as far as mending anything with her. But … the important thing, again, is that you've clearly educated yourself about what is important around consent, and that there can often be miscommunication, especially when, when drugs are involved or alcohol is involved. But your motives, from what you described, were, you know … good. So, who knows what she's thinking or what she's going through. But I think therapy would be a great place for you to do that. And … I … I think going to see a female therapist, or a male therapist, is good. And I think you … you should … print out the survey and … Because I think it just eloquently describes everything. And, I can't see any therapist that would, uh, judge you or be hostile towards you … after what you've written, is a shit therapist and not worth a dime. It's their job to help people unpack things that are, uh, complicated by emotions and all the kind of stuff that you're, you're talking about. So, um … you know … You sound like a, you sound like a good guy. But ultimately, everybody can tell you you're a good guy. But if you don't feel like you're a good guy, that's gonna, that's going to hamper you. And so, what's the best way to feel like you're a good guy? Therapy and support groups.
[01:45:49] This is a, a memorable vacation argument filled out by, uh—and by the way … I know I don't need to apologize about this, but I'm recording pretty late at night, and I didn’t take my second dose of meds, uh, tonight, uh, one of which is Adderall. And I feel like I'm … moving through mud. So I apologize if the pace of this is, uh, unbearably slow. But I'm super excited that I dropped my, uh, Adderall dose down from 20 milligrams to 10 milligrams, uh, cuz the, the high blood pressure and the insomnia was, uh, it was really starting to bug me. Continuing, uh, this is filled out by "Matthew." And, um, he writes, "The entire vacation was a disaster. We—my best friend and myself—went down to Florida to see the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. My friend purchased two bottles of Harry Potter-branded pumpkin juice. She tucked their bottles into her leg, expecting to present them to her mother. My friend and her mother have a running joke, wherein my friend finds something pumpkin flavored, she gives it to her mother, and her mother reminds my friend that she doesn’t have any more room for any more pumpkin crap. Half the stuff rots in the back of her mom's fridge. So, TSA flags the two pumpkins juices, and tells my friend she needed to pour them out, or check the bag and go back from security. I voted for her to pour them out, so we could just get on the plane. Her mom was aware of the taste of pumpkin and pumpkin spice. She probably knows the taste better than anyone on earth. My friend voted for me to shut up. 'It's a gift for my fucking mother!' I said, 'It's overpriced bullshit. Let's miss the plane for fucking pumpkin juice? What the fuck?!' My friend opted to check her pumpkin juice, and I opted to get on the plane. If it took off, she could figure her own way home. She makes her way back through security, and sits right next to me and we spend the next four hours in stark silence." (Laughs) In a stark, clove-infused, cinnamon-wispy, deliciously nutmeg silence (laughs). Fucking love that! Wh-, what is the sudden craze—or maybe not so sudden; it's been a couple of years. It seems like it was all kicked off all by the, uh, Starbucks pumpkin latte? Maybe it's a way that people can enjoy the smells of holidays, without having to put up with your family bullshit. Maybe that's why they love it so much.
[01:48:47] This is a shame and secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself "Wetart." And that's interesting, cuz when I was a male dancer, um, my name was "Tart-we." (Laughs) A, a lot of the ladies told me that, um, I had a lemony taste. Actually (laughs) … I was gonna add another thing to it, but my brain just went to screen saver. She is, uh, in her 30s, identifies as pansexual, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Yes, and I never reported it. My dad is an alcoholic and was completely check out. My mum made me her surrogate husband. She was inappropriate with me." I just wanna thank you, by the way, for claiming this as, "Yes, and I never reported it," because not only are you validating your experience, but I feel like you're validating the experience of all of us who have experienced covert incest. And I would say, actually, with, with your … mother, um, it goes beyond even covert. And I have to say, actually, with my mom as well. It's taken me a long time to get to that place to say that. But, um, I've been doing this show for eight years, and it's so rare that somebody doesn’t minimize what happened to them by saying, instead of saying yes, something happened, they usually check the "some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts," uh, on the, on the survey. So, I just wanna let you know that I'm fucking high-fiving you two sentences into your survey for how you are viewing it, uh, in hindsight. "My mum made me her surrogate husband. She was inappropriate with me. It started off with her just oversharing details of her sex life. Then she started teaching me about sex, but in a very graphic way. Dirtier than Cosmopolitan or Playboy letters. She would go into great detail about different techniques and how to get boys to like you with sex. She would grab my breasts and butt. She inspected my vagina and anus in a weird 'let's play nurse' kind of way." That's where it goes from covert incest to straight-up overt, um, incest. "I know this sounds weird, but I didn’t really know it was wrong for a long time, because it started so young. But I remembered telling her to back off when I was 15. She kissed me on the lips until I was 20 and told her to stop. I feel really gross about it now. I thought it was love, and that shames me." She also been emotionally abused. "My mum manipulated me to make me stay with her. She had an eating disorder and used it to try to get me to stay home from uni. She was really upset when I got married. It's like she wanted me all to herself. She treated me like shit and she spoiled my younger brother. I was her punching bag in a lot of ways, trying to manage her, and my brother was the baby of the family. I really resent that now." Any positive experiences with the abuser? "My mum loved me a lot. I know she did. She at least paid attention to me, unlike my father. That means she loved me, right? I don't know. I feel untethered. I have no idea what is even real anymore." And you just described the exact thought press, processes I had when I finally faced the truth of what happened to me. So, you are right on track for healing, and there's no way around this mind fuck that you are in right now. It's just gonna take time in processing it. And … you know, you wrote, "She at least paid attention to me, unlike my father. That means she loved me, right?" No. It, it doesn't necessarily mean that. You know, attention … there's good attention and there's bad attention. And, you know, my dad didn’t pay much attention to me at all. And I was very comfortable around my dad because he didn’t invade my space. Yeah, my feelings got heard, because—got hurt—because he, you know, he … he wasn’t a great (laughs) focuser on people other than himself. But, I felt … I didn’t feel malice, you know? I didn’t feel … Even though I don’t believe the things that felt malicious to me from mom were intentionally malicious on her part, I felt like, and still feel like, she's just a sick person who was very, very wounded. Continuing, darkest thoughts: "I've been diagnosed with severe OCD, and have horrible intrusive thought about harming people. Stabbing my husband and my cat. Driving over pedestrians. Really sick visual images. Thanks to therapy, I'm beginning to understand that these thoughts are OCD and not things I would ever act on. They are still really sick, thought." If you never listened to the episode we did with Kim, uh, Kimberley Quinlan, uh, we, we did an episode on pure O, which is exactly what you just described, pure OCD. And, uh, we have an upper-, another episode, um, that that hasn’t been released yet with her. "I have lots of dirty sexual thoughts. I am bisexual, and I wanna be fucked by a hot, female nurse. I think this has something to do with the things my mum used to do to me. Mentally, I'm kinky, although I don’t have an outlet for it because I'm in a vanilla marriage. I want to try a load of different things. I want to be tied up. I want to be 'forced' to do things. I also want to be very dominant with a woman. I can't talk about the things to anyone." And you deserve to. You know, your therapist will help you decide what order to unpack things in and how to prioritize working on getting your needs, uh, met. But … in my opinion, um … your, our sexuality—While we won't probably, rarely be 100 percent sexually compatible with somebody, at least, um, having that person accept that part of us, uh, as part of who we are, is a really important part for intimacy. You know, the person can accept … that you have a kink that they may not be into. And they may not, they may decline doing things that involve that kink. But they should still let you know … that they appreciate that you share that knowledge with them and that they accept all of you. Because your partner also deserves to feel safe and comfortable during sex. Darkest secrets: "I look at naked women in the women's change room at the gym. I try not to perv on anyone, but when you see a beautiful woman with perfect tits changing, it's hard not to look. Sometimes I imagine fucking them up against the lockers. Or when I'm having sex with my husband, I imagine having a threesome with them." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I get off on the idea of being a young woman sold into sexual slavery. Being taught the ropes by a kind man. Being forced into things, but secretly enjoying it. I would like to role play this with my husband. I would love to have a threesome. I would like my husband to be the dominant one, and we would be there as his playthings. I want to be used. I want him to force me to go down on the other girl, while he fucks me from behind. I am wildly turned on by 1950s pin-up models. There's something about the buttoned-up air of perfection in those frozen housewives that makes me want to fuck them senseless. I want to push them down on their Formica tabletops and eat them out until their perfect hairdos are fucked up." That is such a great sentence. "Eat them out until their perfect hairdos are fucked up." That's like a little poem. "I want to rip their skirts and hip-height panties. I want to make then cum so hard that they never want to fuck their husbands ever again." You have a knack for writing, uh, just as an aside. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I wish I could tell my husband my sexual fantasies and play around with them. But he is sooo vanilla. He won't even go down on me. I requested it once, and he said he didn’t like the idea. We only have missionary sex. I don’t want to force him into anything he doesn’t want to do. But at the same time, I'm gagging for it. I mentioned trying new things, but he brushes it off and, I don't know what to do. Having been sexually violated by my mother, I don't want to push him to do anything he isn't comfortable with, so I just let it go. Is it unfair of me to ask him to give me a little more in the bedroom department?" No! I don't think it is at all. But this might be a thing to, um, go to a sex therapist with, so that either you can talk about it together with this therapist and brainstorm about some stuff and possibly get to any, um blockages maybe he has. But, it, it sounds like underneath all of this is a lack of communication, cuz ultimately that's really what sex is, is it, it's a physical form of communication. And if the verbal form of communication and the emotional form of communication is stuck between two people, the sex is gonna suffer from that, um … at least in a long-term partnership. What, if anything, do you wish for? "I wish that the NAHS offered lots of free, three—"(Laughs) I'm so sorry; my brain. "I wish that the NHS offered lots of free therapy, not this six sessions bullshit. What am I supposed to do in six sessions? I wish my sex drive was less and my husband's was more, so we could meet in the middle. I wish I was straight, so I wouldn’t have thoughts about women that I will never be able to fulfill. The thoughts also creep me out sometimes, because that a few of them are in there because of the things my mother did to me." And in my experience, some of the things that are turn-ons, uh, will be with us, uh, forever. And some things, um, uh, as abuse gets processed, uh, they lessen or disappear. That's what I have discovered. But, but that's why I think it’s so important, you know … I feel like trying to deal solely with just the sex stuff before unpacking and doing trauma work around, um … the mother issues is gonna be putting the cart before the horse. But I think both of them, ultimately, uh, will be super helpful so that you don’t feel stuck or frozen or like you're in a marriage that isn't working for you. Have you shared these things with others? "I tried to talk to my husband, but he's having none of it. Can't really talk to him about the abuse, because I still talk to my mother and don't want to make things awkward. Stiff upper lip and move on, as they say." Yeah, that's not acceptable that your husband doesn’t wanna talk about it. That's fucked. You deserve better. And, um … I would really make sure you talk about that with your therapist and maybe do some joint stuff with a marriage counselor. The, uh, who knows if you have money, um, and you can afford it, that would be a good thing. How do you feel after writing these things down? "Horny." Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "A vibrator." Any comments to make the podcast better? "Paul, I love the fucking podcast. I have listened to around 250 episodes and counting. I've noticed that your changing the naming style of the podcasts, and honestly to me they feel a little click-baitey lately. 'If only you knew this secret.' If I were you, I'd probably stay away from this type of title, but if it gets you more listeners, then ignore me and tell me to go fuck myself." No. You know, I, I, I don’t think that's off-base. I'm trying to strike a line between getting more listeners—because the show depends financially on having a certain number of listeners, and I'm always kind of hovering around that place. And I don’t need to get into that. But, yes … getting and keeping listeners is a big concern. But I also, um, don’t want to be, I dunno, greasy (laughs), or click-baitey. So, um … I, I try to keep that in mind when I, when I title episodes. And, um … so thank you for sharing that. And, as I've mentioned many times on the podcast, if you haven’t contacted me yet, and you had a mother who, um, covertly or overtly, um, sexually abused you, uh, or was emotionally incestuous with me … (laughs) With me? All your moms did it. Contact me. You can do it through the, through the web site. Because I A) would like to know more about your story and B) might be able to suggest, um, a support group to check out or some books to check out. But thank you, uh, for sharing that. I, I can't begin to tell you how much I related to your survey. And it, it, as sad as I am that this happened to you and that you're still dealing with the repercussions of it, um, it made me feel less alone. So thank you for taking the time out to, to fill out that, that survey.
[02:04:08] And then this is the email I told you about that I got from, uh, a person—I'm gonna withhold their gender, uh, and their age, because they have, um, friends that listen to the podcast and they don’t want … anything that might make them identifiable. And … the email says, uh, "Hi, Paul. I'm struggling to word this email because I have so much shame regarding this topic, even though I am trying really hard not to. I'm a sex addict. Mostly now, I'm compulsively using sex chat rooms. I'm getting help for this, but I haven’t been able to tell my therapists about the content of these chats. I would go to support groups, but there aren’t any where I live that focus on sex addiction." There are, by the way, online, uh … support groups at intherooms.org. It's either .org or .com, but I hear great things about that. And I think they're mostly 12-step based. "I seek out pedophiles or men that will age-play with me, but they usually turn out to be straight-up pedophiles. I like to pretend I'm a child and I'm mostly over the shame that I carried over that. What I struggle with is engaging with actual pedophile who want to do more than play pretend. Sometimes, it's exciting to hear their 'real experiences with children,' when I'm in that lustful haze while masturbating. I don’t know how many of their stories are actually real or made up, but I have a gross feeling that not many of them are fake. A lot of these men have sent me pictures of naked children—sometimes in sex acts, mostly unsolicited. Sometimes I agree for them to show me. I feel disgusted when I see the pictures, but it's still exciting. I used to use shame and disgust with myself to get off. When I'm sent these illegal pictures, it breaks the fantasy that I had in my head, and I try to quiet the voice that is making me sad for seeing these abuse victims so that I can keep masturbating. I'm paranoid that I will be discovered for having seen child porn, and it's my biggest shame. I can't help but feel complicit in the actions of these pedophiles, even though I'm not paying for these pictures or committed the acts against these children. I validate the actions of these sick people by telling them that the pictures are hot and that I wish that that had happened to me when I was their age. I can't tell if I'm hurting children by doing this. I don't want to be. I'm horrified at the thought of children being abused and their trust being broken, but I feel guilty of participating in it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I secretly want you to tell me everything's fine, but I want complete honesty, because deep down, I know it's not. Thank you so much for everything you do. You have changed my life for the better and (unintelligible), and I want to be life you when I grow up." And so, I wrote back—and I did not know, uh, what age or, uh, gender they were when I wrote back to them. And I don’t think it really matters, uh, honestly. I assumed that they were, uh, an adult. And, I said, "Thank you for your honesty. It sounds like sex has become a tool for you to escape pain. And yet now, it is a very large source of that pain, which to me is textbook addiction. I'm not a mental health professional, so my thoughts are just from a fellow human being. I don’t see you as a bad person; I see you as someone who is wounded and hurting and lacking an arsenal of healthy tools to cope with your feelings. You use the one you’ve grown used to. But, as is the nature of addiction, you need a bigger and bigger high to feel the rush, and it had now ventured into self-destructive territory. I don’t know your age or gender, but from what I understand, when it comes to having illegal pictures on your phone or computer, the authorities don’t care, nor do they care where you got them. You are in danger of serious legal consequences, and the legal system will not care that you are not doing this with malice or that it's an addiction. I'd hate to see you endanger your future. Is what you're doing contributing to children being harmed? Possibly. Pedophiles you interact with might ease their conscience by believing you're a child who wants this in reality. You're also not doing them a favor by enabling their behavior and facilitating their acting out and possibly even being the one who has direct contact with a child. I don’t say this shame you, but since you asked for my honest opinion, I'm giving it to you. You deserve better. You are worthy of happiness and peace, but the path you are headed down will not get you there. Healing your pain and finding healthy ways of soothing yourself is the path. It's a long process and requires support. You might consider in-patient sex addiction treatment at a place, uh, like, uh The Meadows. In LA, I think they have one called The Center for Healthy Sex." The Meadows is considered, uh, you know, kind of the, you know, what Hazelteen (sp?) or Betty Ford was considered to, uh, you now, alcohol and drug recovery. The Meadows is considered for, um, sex addiction and, uh, trauma addiction, uh, trauma-related addictions. But from what I understand, it's also extremely expensive. I also wrote, "You should check out any books by John Bradshaw, especially 'Healing the Shame that Binds.' I hope that helps. Deep inside you, there is a beautiful, wounded kid that needs help stepping out. But first, it need to feel safe, and that's where recovery begins. It sounds cheesy, but it's true. The actions you're engaged in are only keeping that wounded kid locked away and distracted and numb. And you're endangering your future, your reputation, your freedom, and your financial potential. Is that worth it?" (Pauses)
[02:11:02] And then, finally, um … And … I, I am so, um … I feel so honored that, that people ask my opinion about stuff that is so important in their lives. And … you know, I like to … say often, I am NOT a mental health professional. So these are just my opinions, um, based on … the books I've read, the therapies I've been in, the people I've talked to, um … And I feel like I do have good stuff to share. Obviously, you know, people wouldn’t be listening to this podcast if they thought I didn’t know what I was talking about. But it's always a fine line for me, because I want to help, but I also don’t wanna overstep my … Whatever … knowledge, experience, or expertise I may have, I don't want to, I don’t want to overstep it. I like to think that the therapists out there, the psychiatrists, their the football team, and I'm the cheerleader. And … it's a, I hope I strike that balance well. And if I don’t, go fuck yourself. Ooooh! Ooooh! That was a quick draw, huh? (Laughs) Thought I was, I was reaching for my spa-, sasparilla; I pulled out a revolver. Shot ya right there in the center of town! In front of everybody! Front of the sheriff. Front of the, the whore. The, the fella with the grizzly beard that's having no luck minin' for gold, who whistles! Whistles when he tries to pronounce certain words.
[02:13:10] This is just a portion of a, uh, shame and secret survey that I wanna end on. It was filled out by a woman who calls herself "Angry Little Blue Lizard." And, I just fucking love this paragraph so much. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "It's okay. It's all okay. Whether that’s crying in your pajamas while watching trash TV because it was an arsehole of a day, or because it was a good day and you're still sad. Feeling guilty about making recovery work or ashamed or anything else, you have feelings and good or bad they are real. You are not fucking tired. You are important and valid, and if that means crying because you can’t find a shoe, then that is valid, too." That is a poem that just made me fucking smile.
[02:14:16] I … you know, I … love doing this podcast. But there are some days when I love it more than others. And … I don’t have words for it. I don’t have words it. Doing this podcast brings such a sense of meaning and purpose, um, into my life that it, um … I don’t have words for it, except, I guess, thank you to anybody who listens or supports it or … shares it with their friends or whatever, whatever you do to help me keep doing this, either emotionally or financially or mentally. I just really, really appreciate it. And, um, just never forget that you're not alone. And thanks for listening.
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