Paul reads an email, two surveys then talks with author Guy Winch (PhD in clinical psychology) about practical tips to deal with rumination. Guy is the author of the book Emotional First Aid. This is the first of six mini-episodes with Guy on dealing with various emotional stressors.
Episode notes:
Buy Guy's book Emotional First Aid
Episode Transcript:
Hey guys welcome to this mini episode. This is one of six little mini episodes that I’m going to be rolling out with author Guy Winch and today’s topic is “Rumination.” And I’m just going to read an email I got from somebody and then one or two surveys and those tips from Guy.
And I believe I mention in the interview itself that he has a book out there called Emotional First Aid.
I want to read an email I got from a listener named Dan and he writes:
“Hardly anyone knows that I have mental health disorder. Technically I haven’t been diagnosed with anything this is mainly because I don’t see the point. If I’m diagnosed with say, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, what changes? Nothing. My life stays the same. The only difference is now I’d be able to say “I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder” which I wouldn’t say anyway for the very same reason that hardly anyone knows I have a mental health disorder now. I’m too scared to admit it. I know, I know, I shouldn’t be. But let’s face it mental illness carries a huge stigma. People think we’re violent, dangerous individuals that will hurt them. When in fact most of us are more likely to hurt ourselves. Besides out of the handful of people I have told, the majority responded with something along the lines of “Just pull yourself together” or “Just stop being anxious” or my favorite one “Get over it, you’re just shy.” Well
to that I say:
- Do you get daily anxiety attacks from being just shy?
- Do you get scared to eat in public if you’re just shy?
- Do you get worried about taking public transport if you’re just shy?
- If you’re just shy do you go through five years of high school without talking to anyone outside your small social circle?
- When you’re just shy do you criticize yourself for every single mistake you make?
- If you’re just shy do you lie in bed at night and think about something you said to someone two months ago wishing you could turn back time and say something different?
- If you’re just shy do you get paranoid that everyone you talk to hates you?
- If you’re just shy do you have an irrational fear that everyone is out to hurt you?
- If you’re just shy do you force yourself to take anti-depressants?
- If you’re just shy do you go to support groups every fortnight and counseling every week?
- If you were just shy you wouldn’t tell people you had a mental disorder.
Nobody wants to have a mental health disorder. It’s very debilitating. You can’t even share your problem with some people. They just respond with something along the lines of “Get over it, you’re just shy.””
Thank you for that, Dan. And I want to read this first. This is from the “Shame and Secrets” Survey… oh, I’m sorry this is from the “I Shouldn’t Feel This Way” Survey filled out by a woman who calls herself (laughing) “PMS Princess.” She’s straight, in her 30s, she qualifies being straight…
“…but I love flirting with other women, I just don’t want to sleep with them.”
What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?
“I would like them to say I was an honest, good person. I want to them to say I made them laugh and take life less seriously. I want them to say I was a good mom, friend and wife.”
How does writing that make you feel?
“I’m sad because I wrote about being a mom last. I’m also relieved to know that I’m an honest and good person on the outside. I do make people laugh, but because I know that they can’t understand how I really feel. Making it funny lets me to get it out without making them uncomfortable.”
If you had a time machine how would you use it?
“I would use it to observe my Mom. She always put her happiness last and I want to know why. I want to know what caused her to be ok with being with a man like my Stepfather and staying with him for over 30 years. Then I would want to watch myself as a parent. I’d like to know if I suck at parenting as much as I think I do—”
By the way, I think that anyone who questions whether or not they suck as a parent is usually not a sucky parent.
“…I’d like to know if I suck at parenting as much as I think I do and find ways to behave like other parents do. I’m supposed to feel a motherly instinct about being a parent, but I don’t. I feel resentful sometimes. I feel like I adopted this beautiful little girl and I can’t show her the love and affection she needs because it makes me uncomfortable. I’m supposed to feel incredibly lucky about my life as it is now, but I don’t. I feel like I don’t deserve what I have. I have been through so much in my life and have always fought so hard for every little thing. But now I have everything I’ve ever wanted: the perfect husband, the beautiful child, a house full of animals, an amazing home and a great job. I feel like the other shoe will drop at any moment and I will be back to struggling to survive. I don’t think I’m strong enough to go through it again. But I think about it happening constantly. I think my husband will die or my daughter will go live with her father and like him more. I fear my husband will lose his job and I’ll be poor again. I make myself sick and feel incredibly guilty just thinking about how much I love having money. I fear my husband will realize who I really am and leave me.”
How does it make you feel to write this out?
“It makes me really sad and disappointed in myself. Why can’t I see how they really feel about me? Why am I so locked up in my mind, always worried about whether or not other people like me? Why can’t I hug my daughter as much as she’d like me to? I feel like you’re going to read this on the podcast and tell the listeners (laughing) that I’m an idiot for thinking something is wrong with me. I hate how much I care about whether or not other people think I’m crazy. I’m afraid to go to a therapist because they will tell me I’m normal and then I will have to accept the way I feel as normal and just put on my “big girl” panties and suck it up—”
By the way there’s a sale on “big girl” panties this weekend. Before I continue with the rest of this I just want to say there’s a difference between… just because what you are experiencing is common that doesn’t mean that it’s something that you should just “get over.” You know, that’s like saying “Well Cancer’s common…” (chuckle) “… you just get over it.” No, it’s… I just said what you thought I was going to say. But I mean it! I fucking mean it.
Do you think you’re abnormal for feeling what you do?
“I do. I don’t know anyone else like me except my older sister and even she doesn’t understand sometimes. I feel like one day I will realize that I’ve been normal all along and I’m just too stupid to realize it. I fear that no one will ever understand how I feel and they will continue to dismiss it as PMS (Premenstrual syndrome). It’s not normal to go two years without sleeping. It’s not normal to take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds to get through the day. It’s not normal to feel the insurmountable rage I feel when I’m off my meds. I’m abnormal because I feel the rage but no one can see it on the outside. No one has any idea. No one can hear my mind racing. I’m totally and completely “normal” on the outside. It’s abnormal to know – exactly when I’m going to be angry, have anxiety, insomnia, feel pain and where the pain will be – all based on my menstrual cycle. How fucking crazy is that?”
Well I’m going to have to say that this is the first time I can say I don’t know how you feel because I don’t know what it’s like to have it related to a menstrual cycle. But I do know what it feels like to have rage, to not know when I’m going to have anxiety or insomnia.
Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself?
“It does make me feel better. I joined a support group for PMDD, which is Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, about six months ago and it has changed my life. Other women – moms, wives – go through the same exact thing every single month. I’ve spent the last twenty something years yearning for someone to understand. It’s liberating to know I’m not alone. Now if only the doctors believed me.”
Yeah, I sometimes just want to shake my fist in the air at Medicine, especially Western Medicine. There just seems to be just this throwing of pills and… Hey pills saved my life in many ways, but there not the only answer to things and sometimes you know I think there’s too much medication or there’s just not enough focus, just not enough caring about their job when they do. I mean do they know what it’s like to, you know, just have that “can’t get out of bed” or “everything is just gray” and the thing they’re thinking about changing is going to take three months of patience for you to wait for this new thing to kick in. Maybe I’m trying to read their mind but sometimes it just feels like they don’t understand, like psychiatrists don’t… I wish psychiatrists could empathize as well as therapists and social workers and I say that not even really fully knowing (laughing) what the difference is between a therapist and social worker. Somebody wrote an article that I read, and posted on the website, and I still don’t really understand. Alright. I’m going to read one more survey about rumination. This one could either be rumination or failure but this is from the Shame and Secrets Survey and big hug to … what did she call herself?... “PMS Princess.” Listen to the episode with listener Amelia [Episode 147]. She also has a kind of a similar issue. It might even be the exact same thing, I’m not sure. Anyway, this is from the Shame and Secrets Survey filled out by a guy who calls himself John Stevens (“that’s not my real name”). He’s straight, in his 30s, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. He writes:
“I lived with my mother and my brother when I was younger. When I was in Fourth Grade my mother and her boyfriend had a huge fight and me and my brother were sent to live with one of our aunts. I enjoyed living with my aunt but years later my mother wanted me back. I did not want to live with my mother because I loved my situation with my aunt and uncle. My mother forced me to live with her to start SeventhGrade and this caused a huge rift in the family as well as leading me to have a great unhappiness, perhaps hatred, for my mother. To offset my bad feelings for her she spoiled me in an attempt to buy my love. This has perhaps continued into my adult life as my living situation and thought processes are not as mature as what they should be for a 31 year old. This is also quite shameful and I blame her for this, but also realize I must take some of the blame because it is my life. This causes the suicidal thoughts to persist as well.”
He’s never been sexually abused. Never been physically or emotionally abused. I dunno. It sounds like, from what you’ve described, that you were emotionally neglected, maybe by your Mom. But, anyway, continuing:
Deepest darkest thoughts
“I think about suicide everyday. I feel like I’m a failure at Life and when looking at my friends and family I wonder how things could have gotten so far off track. I have an English degree from a good university but spent most of my time in college partying and therefore not doing well in my classes. I’m 31 and recently came back from overseas. I’m unsure what to do with myself and what job I can get in the US. I now live with my mother in the middle of nowhere which only increases my feelings of failure. I’ve never been in a fight in my entire life, though I have been picked on and have had many opportunities to defend myself. My mother always told me not to do that and I listened to her. This was a huge mistake by her telling me this, and by me in listening to her. Because of this I now walk around with an extreme rage and constantly think about the all times that I was picked on when I was a child and I did nothing in return. I feel I may explode and kill someone because of this but can’t be sure. For those listeners out there who are parents I would hope you would tell your children to defend themselves when they’re at school. I hate my mother for this parenting strategy more than anything else. She did many things correctly as a parent, but this was a huge mistake.”
Boy, that sounds like the definition of rumination there, so I really hope he listens to this
mini-episode.
Deepest darkest secrets
“When I was in high school I was at a party smoking marijuana through a bong with some friends and some other people I didn’t know, as well. For some reason I decided to blow into the bong which caused all of the water and some of the weed to be pushed out of the bong on to the floor. As everyone else there was high they couldn’t believe what I was doing and proceeded to laugh and mock me tremendously about this situation. I was incredibly embarrassed and spent the rest of the night crying slightly to myself and contemplating suicide. If my friend, who owned the house where the party was happening, had had a gun, I would have used it to kill myself. There’s no doubt in my mind. Now, although I’m not famous, I have lived with the fear of becoming famous because of this situation because I wouldn’t want someone who was there to make this situation public. I’ve secretly been hoping that everyone who knows about this event dies so I am the only one in the world who was there. Of course maybe it’s not that big of a deal to anyone else, but to me it is absolutely the worst thing I’ve ever done in my life and I would give anything to erase it from my past. I still think about it and it is incredibly shameful.”
That may take the cake for THE most unnecessary amount of anguish and worry over anything… of all the things I’ve read in this podcast. I mean, that should be something that somebody could laugh about, you know, to themselves and so I… yeah this is the very definition of rumination to me.
Sexual fantasies most powerful to you
“Most of my sexual fantasies have taken place, however I constantly look at porn (thank you, internet) and masturbate several times a day, four to seven times per day on average—”
That to me sounds a bit excessive, like it’s a drug. I’ll get on my soapbox: “Support group!” I’d try to talk to a therapist because that’s… masturbation is great but not in the place of dealing with our feelings.
“I try to ease myself off the porn by fantasizing about actual women I know and find attractive instead of those I see on screen. This works sometimes and sometimes not. My level of porn consumption is quite unusual and slightly shameful as well.”
What, if anything, do you wish for?
“I hope more than anything to find a job that I am passionate about. I’ve been searching for this my entire life and I’ve been unable to find it. I think sometimes about being married and having kids, but then I wonder if I will be a good father since my father was not there and I didn’t really get along with my mother’s boyfriend. Still, although I’m not sure if I would be a good father, I hope to one day have a secure job that I enjoy and a wife that I love.”
You know my hope for you is that you become comfortable with yourself before you get into a relationship because, man it’s like no matter how perfect that partner is for us, if we’re full of shame, self-hatred… it’s really hard for anybody else to love us and we usually – and I’m talking about myself here – we usually wind up being the least nice to those people that love us the most. Fortunately I’m not that guy anymore with my wife, but I was for many years.
If I had never gotten help… I was the type of guy that I would advise (myself from the podcast) to a woman “turn and run from that fucking guy because he is going to (laughing) drag you down with him.” So, I’m not putting you down by saying that at all. I’m encouraging you to get some help because it sounds like you’re in a huge amount of pain and anguish.
Have you shared these things with others?
“I have not shared any of this with anyone else. I become emotional with sadness and rage when I think about any of these things. I’m also ashamed of all of them. The only reason I’m sharing them here is because this anonymous, which I thank you for.”
And I thank you for sharing it.
How do you feel after writing this down?
“It’s been quite therapeutic, I must say. I feel better but again the thoughts will come back, as will the emotions.”
Anything you’d like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences?
“If you are a parent please teach your children to defend themselves at school so that they won’t have terrible experiences at school as I did. For anyone else who has had similar experiences just know that someone else has been there. We struggle together in our search for solace.”
Thank you so much for that and I’m sending you a big hug. I wonder if you’re dealing with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) from being bullied? Let’s see. Alright, I’m going to play that thing on rumination now with Guy Winch and then I have a message for you at the end. Talk to you in a little bit.
Mini-Episode - “Rumination with Guy Winch”
PG: I’m here with Guy Winch, who doesn’t go by “Doctor” I’ve noticed, even though he’s a PhD. I find that kind of adorable…
GW: (chuckles)
PG: … that you don’t flaunt that and nothing against PhDs that do call themselves Doctor.” I would if I was a PhD but I dunno, I find something kind of adorably humble about a PhD that doesn’t put “Doctor” on their email.
GW: I think that started when I was getting my PhD and my very old grandfather, at the time, said “You know that’s nice, but you could do something useful like be an electrician…”
PG: (laughs)
GW: …and I thought “Uh huh. Okay. Maybe not as impressive as I once thought.”
PG: You’re originally from Israel. You’ve been here 20 years. You got your PhD in Psychology. Was there a—?
GW: —Clinical Psychology.
PG: … Clinical Psychology. How does Clinical Psychology differ from other types of Psychology?
GW: Well, when I got my degree it was really split into the therapy side and the science side. So, we had classes, we did research but we had many, many hours of therapy with supervision. We had a clinic that was built just for that program where we saw patients and got a lot of supervision. So, our clinical skills were very significant, it’s a big part of the program.
PG: And what is the other, the non-clinical. How is that referred to, as a “Research Psychologist?”
GW: It could be Developmental Psychologist, Experimental Psychologist, Community Psychologist, there are many kinds. Organizational—
PG: Okay. But I would imagine the most common ones that we come into contact with seem to be Clinical Psychologists.
GW: Right. So therapists will be Clinical Psychologists, perhaps Counseling Psychologists. Licensing tends to be generic. So, even if you got trained as an Experimental Psychologist and you’re only contact with patients was when you put rats through a maze, the licensing is the same and you can still do therapy. Hopefully you won’t, but you might.
PG: Yeah. Let’s talk about… You have a book out and… remind me of the title of it again.
GW: The title of the book is Emotional First Aid, the subtitle is Practical Strategies for Treating Rejection, Failure, Guilt and Other Everyday Psychological Injuries.
PG: I read a piece that you wrote on rumination, and you have tips on how to deal with rumination. Is there a specific type of childhood trauma, injury issue that leads one to be more prone to having issues with rumination?
GW: I think people who have childhood trauma might be more prone to rumination because you’re used to thinking about things and reflecting on things as children. Since we are pretty powerless all you can do really is reflect on what happens to you and what is happening to you. But rumination is also habitual, in other words, it’s possible to get into the habit of ruminating and then get stuck in that habit of ruminating.
PG: I know nothing about that. (sarcastically)
GW: Uh huh.
PG: I had a QEEG (Quantitative ElectroEncephaloGraph) done on my brain and the guy that did it looked at it and said “Oh yeah this area of your brain has much higher activity than normal and that’s generally where people ruminate” and I was like “Oh my god.” Everything he said reading my brain… he didn’t know me personally… and everything he said from reading the patterns of my brainwaves were dead on. Dead on. So I’m a big believer that this stuff is real. I mean clearly I wouldn’t be doing the podcast if I didn’t think this stuff is real. But I believe that it’s connected to science. I think a lot people shy away from going into this stuff because they think “Oh it’s just me feeling sorry for myself. It’s just me looking for an excuse to be sad or to blame my parents for something” and I think a lot of people get stuck there because they think it’s about blaming someone else instead of processing the stuff and moving forward. You know I think once you get into therapy, once you realize what your injuries, traumas and stuff are then the responsibility is on you to stop blaming other people and get into the recovery of it.
GW: And I think there’s a lot of science actually. When I wrote my book I wanted to look at well what are the current studies? What do they say about each of these things? What can they teach us? What do they show? And the science is really pretty rigid, you know, when it comes to these things. It’s not just “one study found this” it’s “many, many studies found this” and they keep finding it. It must really be real. It must really be a concern and with rumination for example one of the things they found is that people fall into the habit of ruminating, they can really get stuck there and when you get stuck there it can start to impact things like your ability to do problem solving. So there was one study that found that women who found a lump in their breast – who had a tendency to ruminate – waited on average two months longer than other women to make an appointment with their doctor after finding a lump in their breast.
PG: Why do you think that would be? I would imagine that the woman who ruminates about that would be the quickest one to go do that.
GW: Ironically no because the rumination habit, what it makes you do is that it makes you really focus on the worrying, on the stewing, rather than the doing…
PG: Ah.
GW: …You’re not used to taking action because actually when you take action, when you figure it out and decide what to do is when you stop ruminating because you kind of figured it out and then you move on. It’s when you’re ruminating, it means you’re stuck. You’re not taking action. You’re not figuring it out and then you’re into the habit of just rolling it around in your head again over and over again and not acting.
PG: It’s… I’m sorry did I cut you off?
GW: No no.
PG: It sounds like there’s a real overlap or connection between ruminating and perfectionism.
GW: Well, absolutely.
PG: Yeah. So what are some tips for people who find themselves stuck in rumination?
GW: So, a couple. One thing that I suggest to people is that they have to realize first of all that it’s really bad for you. Not just because you’re going to have problems with problem solving. But people who ruminate are at much higher risk for cardiovascular disease, because they are releasing all these stress hormones into their bodies. They’re at high risk for depression, eating disorders, alcoholism, because they’re constantly focusing on the negative, on the bad. And the thing is it’s very addictive, it’s very difficult to stop. Those things will pop into your head unbidden and then you just see that scene again or you think of that worry again and it’s very difficult to stop. I suggest to people that it’s a little bit like when you stop smoking. I used to be a smoker many, many years ago and when you stop you know that you’re going to get wicked cravings. And you have to kind of “white-knuckle” it through the cravings and if you do, then in time they’ll come less frequently and they’ll be less intense. The way you “white-knuckle” it through the cravings is the same way you kind of “white-knuckle” it through rumination. You distract yourself as soon as possible. The minute that the worry begins, the minute that the ruminative thought begins – that one that doesn’t lead to new insights but just as a replay – you immediately have to distract yourself with something that requires concentration. It can be a puzzle. It can be a memory task like trying to recall the list of songs in a playlist or the order of books on your shelf or the order of grocery items in the market. Whatever it is that will really require concentration. A crossword puzzle, Angry Birds—
PG: Scrabble. I think Scrabble is the best.
GW: … Scrabble, Scrabble with friends is very good. So, you know, those things. And once you do, usually two minutes of that kind of activity will be enough to make that craving/urge pass and then you go back to what you were doing. But it has to be that real “zero tolerance” of “whenever that thought comes up, I’m going to distract myself” because if you indulge it then you’re strengthening that link, you’re making it more likely to reappear.
PG: I imagine too why that brings comfort to people who pray or meditate when, you know, the urge to drink or whatever comes up or to lash out at somebody.
GW: Yes, and mindfulness meditation really is a practice of being able to have a thought and move it aside in some kind of way. So actually practicing doing that very thing and people who do meditation are more likely to be more successful, make it that less effortful at least at the beginning.
PG: And would observing your mind fit into that category of dealing with the rumination by distancing yourself from your thought and saying “My thought is not me. I’m just watching this almost like a sporting event that I’m now detached from?”
GW: If you have that skill. In other words some people who are used to meditation can actually move that thought at a more distant place and detach from it emotionally, not get activated and you’ll know the difference because if you can do that then the emotional activation should be less. If you’re doing that supposedly but you’re still charged up, you’re not doing it successfully enough and then you should do the other kind of distraction.
PG: How about getting on a crowded bus and pushin’ people around? Would that be a healthy distraction? (sarcastically)
GW: Only if somebody then turns around and takes a swing at you because it really needs to require your concentration and focus.
PG: Ha ha. What are some other… uh… some other tips for dealing with rumination?
GW: Well, one of them you mentioned actually and that is that if you are ruminating, let’s say, about a specific scene… your boss yelled at you in a meeting and, you know, you keep seeing their angry face as they were screaming at you and that, you know, thought event keeps replaying. Then one thing you can do, which is something you suggested in a way. In other words, replay the scene. But when you start replaying it, zoom out and zoom out further so you can see yourself within the scene and then zoom out further as if you were an outside observer who happened to pass by and see it. And replay it that way. When you are doing it in the third person perspective, when you’re viewing yourself in the scene because there are a lot of studies that show that when you do that, when you zoom out in that way, see yourself in the scene… in the scene from a distance. It is less activating, you’re blood pressure will rise less. It’ll go back to normal more quickly, and you’re actually trying to lay down a different kind of association to that scene than the one that you’ve had previously.
PG: And you’ll get another angle on how your pants fit, which is always nice. (sarcastically)
GW: It’s always good to get a good view of the outfit and see what needs to be changed.
PG: And the other thing that I would add to that is zoom out on the timeline. I do a thing where I say “Is this going to matter in five years?” and that almost always makes whatever it is evaporate. Because I try to think to myself “What happened to me five years ago that is really mattering to me right now? I can’t think of a single thing.”
GW: Right, and why that’s really important, that kind of thing, is because a lot of people, they feel “No this is important that I indulge this thought.” Now if you ask them why, they’ll actually struggle to come up with a good reason, because, indeed, in five years it won’t matter. But it seems really important because if it weren’t “Why would I have the urge to go through it so strongly?” Well because of the habit, that’s what brooding does. You develop that habit and that’s why you have that urge or because of childhood things that happened when you’re in that habit. But exactly right. If you need to, at first, persuade yourself that “You know what? I should fight this one and make sure I don’t fall into the pattern of brooding.” Then do that. Will it matter in five years? Probably not.
PG: I find that if I am going to brood it’s best to get a globe and stroke it while a cat’s in my lap. I find that very comforting. (sarcastically)
GW: The globe… yeah well ah, are you looking at any country specifically—?
PG: —I’m looking at them all, Guy. They’re all goin’ down. They’re all going down.
GW: Ha ha. The globe and the cat. Wow!
PG: The first time I tasted a salted caramel Rice Krispy treat I thought “The person that invented this must have been stroking a globe when they came up with it because—”
GW: With or without the cat, though?
PG: With the cat, absolutely, and a hairless cat.
GW: Ha ha ha.
PG: It is the most evil stroke of genius I’ve ever tasted.
GW: Ha ha ha.
PG: I was like… I took one bite and I went “Fuck. You. This is so good. I’m going to be addicted to these.” Any other tips for the ruminator?
GW: Just that it’s going to be… you know, you really have to think of it a bit as habit change and like any other habit change it’s going to be difficult. It’s going to be more laborious and effortful as you start and if you can keep it up for enough time, the habit will kick in and you won’t need to make as many efforts to keep it up. So, just be aware you’re entering a tricky period, like somebody who’s stopped smoking has to be aware “Ok, this is going to be a little iffy for a short while but it’ll be worth it.”
PG: Well, that’s great advice, Guy. I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
GW: You’re very welcome.
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that and as I said there will be 5 other installments coming up. One on Rejection, one on Loneliness, one on Failure, one on Low Self-esteem and one on Guilt. Many thanks and his book is called Emotional First Aid. And… I just want to plug that I’m going to be speaking on March 25, it’s a Tuesday, at the Lassen Community College. The Lassen Aurora Network is hosting a community screening for a PBS documentary called “A New State of Mind” which I was featured in and I’m going to be speaking for a half hour at some point during the proceedings. It’s from 5:30 to 8:30 at Middleton Hall. It’s Lassen Community College which is on Highway 139 in Susanville, California. RSVPs are appreciated but not required and you can call (530) 257-3864 for reservations. And here’s the real reason if anybody’s gonna show up: “Complimentary food and beverages provided.” You can’t beat that. So uh… oh and there’s also an email address if you want to reserve through email. It’s a long one, but I’ll read it anyway. It’s lassenauroranetwork[at]frontiernet.net. “Hey Paul, how about you just put these fuckin’ links up on the website?” Ohhhhh… and it ends on a moment of pure jackassery.
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