Paul:
Welcome to Episode 41 with my guest Erin. I'm Paul Gilmartin and this is the Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive negative thinking. Feelings of dissatisfaction, disconnection, inadequacy and that vague, sinking feeling that the world is passing us by. You give us an hour, we'll give you a hot ladle of awkward and icky. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional medical advice, it's not the doctor's office, think of it more as a waiting room that hopefully doesn't suck. I am a jackass that tells dick jokes, and happens to do a show that some people find helpful. It's hard for me to say, but that's the truth, according to the emails I get from you guys, so thank you for all of those. And if you do need to email me, or feel moved to email me, you don't have to need to email me to email me, that email address is: mentalpod@gmail.com, or you can just go to the website and email me through that, the website is mentalpod.com.Let's see, I'd like to read a letter, or a survey respondent. There's two surveys on the website that you can take, the basic Mental Illness Happy Hour survey, and then one about shame and secrets. And this is from the basic survey, and a guy named Tristan filled it out. He's in his 20s, he ingests quite a bit of drugs and alcohol, he was raised in a stable and safe environment. What are the most common negative thoughts that you have towards yourself, he says "I am comfortable with the idea of dying, that I am unworthy of success, that I am too willing to please people, that my actions will hurt the people I love, also fear of mania, fear of depression, fear of hospitalization." To the question, describe any behaviors you wish you didn't engage in but you do anyway, he writes "I will lie to strangers, on airplanes, on the bus, over the internet, about almost anything. I say the very first thing that comes into my mind without thinking about the potential ramifications. I never drink in moderation. I will spend my time with people I hate for the purpose of using cocaine. I avoid talking with my parents about money, even though they know I'm going through a rough period and want me to accept their charity. I sleep with an ex-girlfriend every opportunity I get, which wreaks emotional havoc on me. I will realize a manic episode is starting and consciously stop taking my mood stabilizers.Um, that one really struck me because it never occurred to me that a manic-depressive—thank you for filling that out, Tristan—it had never occurred to me that a manic depressive would stop taking their medication when the mania hits because, in some ways that makes sense to me because the mania feels so good. I've had little bouts of mania and you feel euphoric, you feel on top of the world, you talk too much, though you don't think so. You're just very excited, and you want everybody to share in your excitement. And so I totally get why someone would want to do that, but the problem is, sometimes we go too far in that mania and because we get so self-involved and so self-absorbed that we cause this damage, our enthusiasm, we cause enthusiasm damage, which I'm sure any manic-depressive out there would... will know what I'm talking about. In fact, if you're listening, and you have some type of enthusiasm damage from your mania, um... write to me and tell me about it because I'd love to explore more of that. I think I've shared with you guys before, when internet domain names became available for purchase over the internet in the mid 90s, I was convinced that this was how I was going to make my retirement money, so I took what money I had and for three days nonstop, (I was obviously in some type of manic episode, I guess), for three days nonstop, at seventy dollars a pop, I reserved domain name after domain name, and 99 percent of them, completely fucking worthless. I mean it is horrif—I've talked about this on Jimmy Pardo's show—I've gone down the list of some of the names: Oldpeoplefucking, was one of the names, dot—and I got not only dot.com, but dot.net! Yes. You would not believe the list—and I don't know why I thought people were going to be rushing to watch old people fuck—but that's a hard thing to admit but that is one of the side effects of depression. The other side of depression is when it feels so good you don't want it to end, you want to squeeze every last drop out of it. And - wow. I relate. So Tristan, thank you for your survey.One thing I'd like to share with you before we kick off the interview with Erin Whitehead, um, the other side of depression, obviously, is the bad part, the down part, I should say. And I have been weaning myself off one of my meds for the last couple of months because I was feeling flat. And my psychiatrist and I talked about it, and he thought, "Well, maybe you don't need the Celexa anymore", and that works on your...it's an SSRI, which works on your, not dopamine, what the hell's the other one, serotonin. So we weaned me off of that and all was good for a couple of months and I was actually really enjoying the fact that I could feel emotions more deeply. I was starting to be able to cry, like tears of joy, and really enjoyed it because it had been a long time since I was able to do that. But then I started noticing that I was crying more often, and I was getting sad more often, and like a week or two ago, I was convinced that it was just because, oh, the days are short, and the Christmas season, and that's what this is all about. But I was in a support group, and this guy was sharing about having relapsed, and he cheated on his girlfriend, and I asked him, I said "can I share this story?" and he said "Yes, feel free to". He lost his sobriety, cheated on his fiancee, went on a meth bender, and wound up sitting in his van, opened his veins, and he said, the blood is spurting out of his veins, and he just said out loud "God, I'm ready to come home. I'm just so tired." And when he was telling this story for the first time and I heard it, tears are streaming down my face, and I thought to myself, "Oh my God, that's exactly how I feel. I'm so tired." And that was when I knew, maybe I need to go back on the Celexa.(Theme music) I'm here with Erin, and I was introduced to you through a mutual friend, Matt Newell, who I know from Pete's Coffee, Matt has worked there for years and I am a frequent visitor to that, and Matt's an improviser, and I was picking his brain, and I said "have no problem getting male guests, because most of my friends are male, but I'm looking to get some more female guests, do you know anybody who would be good?" And he said "Well let me think about that for a while," and then he came back and he suggested you. Because I said what I'm looking for is someone who's comfortable talking about their feelings and who has a sense of humor, maybe a little bit of perspective about the battles in their heads. Erin: Right. Paul: So, what about you made you think that —well first of all before we get to that, why don't you tell me where you're from, that kind of stuff. Erin: I'm originally from Hingham, Massachusetts, but I haven't lived there since I was six. We lived kind of all over, North Carolina, I like to say it with an accent, I don't have it at all, Ojai California— Paul: Love Ojai! Erin: I love Ojai. Paul: Did you know...well when did you live there? Erin: I lived there from like '92, when I was in seventh grade, until I went to college. So, like 8 years maybe. Paul: Did you know Claude Mann when you were living there? Perla Batalla and Claude Mann? Erin: I know those names, are they active in the artistic kind of... Paul: Ah yeah, Perla's a wonderful singer, she sang backup for Leonard Cohen for years and she's been a solo artist, like, fills auditoriums wherever she goes. Erin: Well, Ojai's so small, you hear the names all over... I don't think I met them, specifically. When you were saying that Matt recommended me, the way he phrased it to me was "I don't know how to...I don't want to offend you, I have this friend who does this podcast, and it's about...well...it's about mental illness and you were the first person I thought of!" And I was like, I immediately go "I'll do it! That sounds super fun!" Paul: Did you really? Erin: I love talking about that stuff. Paul: That's awesome. So you've been an improviser for a while. Erin: Yeah. Well, I've been at UCB for maybe three and a half years. Paul: UCB stands for Upright Citizen's Brigade theater, and it's kind of ...we've talked about it many times on this podcast, but for those of you who are listening for the first time, it's a kind of famous improvisational theater, there's one in New York, one in Los Angeles, and Erin is a frequent performer at the one here in Los Angeles. Erin: Yeah, Matt and I are both on Kidgrift, which is one of the house teams, it's a Harold team on Harold night. Paul: and Harold is a form of improvisation that was actually invented...do you know the story behind how they came up with the name Harold? Erin: Wasn't it like a John Lennon joke? Because John Lennon used to say —do I have the wrong story?—cause you're looking at me like no, that's not... Paul: That's not the story that I'd heard, when I went through Second City's training program in the mid-to-late eighties, one of us asked, Michael Gelman I believe was...either Don diPaolo or Michael Gelman was our teacher, and we asked him, "why do you call it a Harold?" and he said that Second City people had come up with this idea for something and they were trying to think of a name for it, and they asked the piano player, I think Fred Katz was the name of the piano player who always accompanied the shows, and he said "How about Harold?" and everybody laughed and so they called it Harold. Erin: I heard a similar story but I heard it came from a joke, that when the Beatles were being interviewed—I'm going to get it wrong—but someone said "what do you call the kind of music you do?" and one of them made a joke and just called it a name. I heard that he took the joke from the Beatles. I don't know if that's true, Paul: So they're probably both true then. Erin: They could be. Or I heard a really exaggerated— Paul: Harold is a really cool...why don't you describe for the people what the structure of Harold is. Erin: Um, it's long form improv, so we get any kind of suggestion from the audience at the top of the show, and we do some kind of opening to generate ideas, which can be anything from monologues, to a conversation to something really ooga-booga organic running around the stage, and then we do three sets of two-person scenes, a big group scene, and then we come back and do the second beat of those first scenes, meaning, same joke, and either like a different situation and the same characters in a different time, another group scene, and then in the third beat, the idea is to sort of have that group mind and marry the ideas that have been building throughout the show into some kind of amazing finale which sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't happen. Paul: Yeah, that's what's so great about improvisation. There are two improvisers that do a long form in Chicago and sometimes in New York and I'm sure you're familiar with Dave Pasquesi and T.J. Jagodowski and they're absolutely pushing the art form of long form improv. A lot of people are kind of used to the Whose Line is it form of improv, which, you know, certainly has its place, but for my taste is a little too "look at me, look at me", kind of.... Erin: And it's so fun to start with, if you've never done improv, I think it's a great way to start, because it just shows you that you can jump in and not know what you're doing but it's within a formula. So I think once you've done long form, for me anyway, once I did long form I was like, uh you can do it, but you're a funny person within a setup that's already going to be funny. You know? Paul: Yeah, to me, that form of improv is kind of like square dancing and Harold is more like jazz. Erin: Oh I like that! Except I don't like jazz. But I do like that analogy. Paul: Or a good alt…Radiohead...something, somebody who's kind of pushing the art form, but um... I want people to kind of know what it is that you do but obviously this show isn't about comedy, per se. Maybe the background of it. So, when Matt asked you and you immediately thought, "Yes, I want to do it", what made you say that? Erin: The members of my team teased me, because they do a lot of pop-culture references, and I always say, "couldn't we do scenes about feelings?" because that's what I like to talk about, and I have this slew of stuff going on. Like I've been a hypochondriac since before I can honestly remember, like I remember being four and lying about not wanting to go to the doctor because I was afraid. And I've always just sort of thought I've had diseases or whatnot. Paul: Why were you afraid to go to the doctor? Erin: I was afraid that they would tell me it was something serious, that would require surgery, or it would mean I was dying. And even at four, I was like "better to be in denial", like if I don't find out hopefully it will just fester and kill me in my sleep or go away. Paul: Right. Makes sense to me. Erin: Um, but on top of that I have, I have then as an adult, and it started sort of in my late teens, developed actual conditions, some of which the doctors knew what they were and were able to help me with and some of which have been really, um, they can identify them but they're difficult to solve. So I sort of have that feeling of like, "Well am I a hypochondriac, because clearly I have real stuff." Or did my mind being a hypochondriac somehow psychologically cause all of this.. Paul: The chicken or the egg! Erin: Yeah, yeah. And it's been such a long time, you know it's been my whole life. It's not like I started being a hypochondriac in my mid-twenties and you could see that oh, that was the point where things happened. Paul: You watched a Woody Allen movie and then you became a hypochondriac. Erin: He was one of those, people kept saying, "you'll love Woody Allen", and it was one of those like everyone says I'm going to love this guy, I don't want to see a movie, and when I finally did, it was like, oh of course, this is why people think I would like him, Paul: Was this pre-creepy Woody Allen or post-creepy Woody Allen? Erin: I saw post-creepy first, or I should say, saw the newer stuff first, and thought "not into it", and then went back and looked at the old stuff and I was, oh God this is amazing. Paul: The old stuff is so amazing. It's so amazing. Erin: It's amazing, and it gives you that feeling of, fuck, I have to give up my career because everything I wanted to write about he already did, you know? Paul: Yeah, he really...there was nobody like him in the 70s and the 80s really, such a unique voice. When your hypochondriac first began presenting itself, what were the symptoms you thought you had, what did you think you had and what...just kind of walk me through it. Erin: It would be stuff as as simply as, um, when I was probably four, I guess, I was playing with scented markers, and I decided to taste one, and then I looked in the mirror and saw that I had a blue dot...why they make scented markers for kids, I don't know, because of course they're going to do that. But then I got convinced, you know you've heard about like, your parents tell you don't eat ink, that's one of the lessons.... Paul: The name of the marker was I Dare You to Not Eat This. Erin: Beware of Dog, like come right in. Um, and I became convinced that I'd given myself some kind of poisoning, and my Dad saw it on my tongue, I guess I ate a lot of it, my tongue was somewhat blue, and he said "What's that on your tongue?" and I said "Something Mom gave me", which at that age I had no idea that he would know Mom hadn't given me ink, or something blue. But I really was, I was terrified— Paul: And you were how old? Erin: Four? And he was in treatment at that point for cancer, so he was in the hospital all the time, and without being aware of it I'm sure that had something to do with it. You know like he went to the doctor and came back with bad news and, you know, it got scarier and scarier. So as a little kid I probably associated that, and didn't even realize that until much much later. Paul: If you're going to the doctor, something bad is going to happen. Erin: Right, right. And they smile and tell you everything's going to be great and then it's not. You know, he had died when I was five. So... Paul: I can't imagine how painful that's got to be for any kid, but especially a kid that's just gotten old enough to know that's Daddy. You know, like a one-year-old kid, I suppose you'd miss, just that guy that holds you, but you wouldn't know it consciously, but at five you're just... Erin: Yeah, I was aware of what was happening, I've heard studies say that kids don't understand death until they're eight. Completely not true. My parents were very open with me, and I remember asking my mom, "Is Daddy going to die?" like, is that a possibility? And I think at that age I was certain it was going to be like "Oh my God, no. Of course not." And she said "Yeah. It is a possibility." And I just broke down. Because I fully understood what that meant. There was no part of me that was like "But then he'll be better". It wasn't the little-kid concept of death where it's not permanent. Um, and so I fully understood it, and... Paul: Do you remember having any conscious thoughts when she said that to you? Erin: I remember the conscious feeling. It was like when the heat starts at the top of your head and just goes all the way down. Paul: Oh that's the worst. You almost leave your body. Erin: Yeah, you almost do, you feel like every part of it like it's gel. Paul: It goes from your head into your stomach. Erin: And all the way down. It's like a tide of heat. Paul: Mine was lazy, so it would get about to my waist and it would give up. Underachieving. Erin: Were you really tall? Maybe you were just too tall. Paul: I never had that problem. But um, so your Dad passed away when you were five, and what....the stuff kind of started a little bit before that.... Erin: A little bit before that, and I would say, like the hypochondria was sort of coupled with fear of death. Like I became so scared of everything. And if my Mom even went to the store for ten minutes, it took five minutes for me to be convinced that she had died in a car wreck and be crying. Paul: Would you be alone when she was at the store? Erin: No, well this would be...even at age eleven. You know, and yeah, I'd be alone at eleven. She didn't leave me alone at age five. My Mom's going to listen to this and be like "Really?" Paul: Any siblings? Erin: Yeah, I have a sister who is two and a half years younger. And so for her it was a really different experience... Paul: Did she remember your father? Erin: She has, you know, like snapshot memories and like a memory of him saying one thing. But it was really hard when he died, she did the little kid thing of, my Mom would explain it and then a week later she'd ask when he was coming back. Paul: Oh, God. Erin: And I think in, like, my own pain would very meanly keep telling her, probably trying to tell myself as well, he's not. Paul: He's not coming back. Erin: Right. Paul: Um, so after that what do you remember? After your Dad passed away. Erin: Um, we moved to Southern California, shortly after that. Paul: To Ojai? Erin: No, this time we moved to Altadena, California, where there's earthquakes. And I, there was one, and I became so scared of them after that that a truck would drive by and I was scared, I was up all night, terrified of a huge earthquake. Paul: For people that have never heard an earthquake in person, a decent-sized earthquake, it is the deepest, loudest rumble you've ever heard in your life. And if they're really, really big, it's a roar that you swear the earth is going to swallow you up. Erin: Yeah. And we had a pretty big one in Altadena, I think it was in the 80s and it was maybe a six-point-something. Which was... big enough. I mean our huge fishtank was sloshing water out of it. And so, these are things that it's legitimate to be scared of but I would... I couldn't let go of this stuff, at which point my Mom, I was so scared of earthquakes we moved to North Carolina, where they have tornadoes. Paul: Because you were so scared of earthquakes you... Erin: It had a lot to do with that. Paul: Really! Erin: I just couldn't....walking on the ground to me felt unsafe. Paul: Had your Mom ever remarried? Erin: No. Paul: OK. So you moved to North Carolina then at what age? Erin: In fourth grade. And fourth grade is, it's one of my worst memories because I was so, just struggling with like who I was and wanting to be accepted and I was willing to do absolutely anything to be liked, which was the worst thing you could do to be liked. Paul: Yes, that desperation, kids sense that and just pounce on you like Lord of the Flies. Erin: Oh it was. They sensed it and I would keep reassuring them like "Yeah, I am so desperate to be your friend. Whatever you want." Paul: But fortunately now you're in show business where desperation is welcomed, and people respect it. Erin: Now we all compete for who had the worst childhood and that's a great thing. Paul: So do you remember anything specifically that you did that was kind of desperate to get people to like you? Erin: Yeah, I mean there was one instance where I had probably been in school for about a month, and I had been making terrible impression after terrible impression. Paul: In your mind. Erin: No, this was supported by by the reactions. Paul: OK, you had the data to back it up. Erin: Oh my God. Even the teacher didn't want to hang out with me at recess, she told me I couldn't sit with her anymore, and I think honestly it was because I made her look dorky to the other teachers. Paul: Were you high-strung, or just clingy, sad and desperate? Erin: Clingy, sad and desperate. Paul: Yeah. Erin: And, so there was one day we were at recess and there's sort of a circle of kids around, and I had this great idea, I go, "Hey, why don't we all go around the circle and say what our dads do. You start," to the person to the left of me. And so everyone's going around, going like "Oh, my Dad's a doctor, " and "My Dad's this", and I"m like, my heart was beating because I'm like "when they get to me, I'm going to tell them what happened, and they're finally going to get me." In my mind it was like, they'll be like "Oh my God, this huge thing happened to you, now we understand why you're so weird, and now we'll love you". So it finally comes around to me and I just use my really friendly voice, and I was like "Oh, my Dad's dead." Most awkward, horrible way to say that! And there's just this silence and then the kids all kind of like wandered off. But in my mind that was going to be.... Paul: Because probably if they had found out another way they might've had sympathy for you, but knowing that you initiated it probably felt oddly manipulative... Erin: Oh it was so, manipulative. It was manipulative! You know it was, I couldn't...I didn't have the wherewithal to know how to share with people and be open and communicate, but I needed that information out, and so I negotiated this whole strange circumstance where it would seem natural. Paul: So like from an early age, then, it sounds like you had this illusion which a lot of people have, I think most people have, and are born with and probably die with, which is the illusion that if we can just get more control, we'll be safe. And so I need to manipulate you to get what I've pictured in my mind to happen because then everything will be OK, because I can't trust what is going to happen. Erin: I think it was a lot of that and I also think it was a misunderstanding that people care about what happened to you in your past. Most of them don't. You know, like your good friends will, but it's not, nobody wants to hear tragic stories off the bat. That's not... Paul: And not on the playground in fourth grade from a new person. That's a little...even to a fourth grader, I'd think they would think, this person's too needy. Erin: Absolutely, and I would've thought the same thing. I mean that's the hard thing about telling these stories is, I can't, there's no part of me that goes "those kids were so awful." I'm sure that they were but they were normal kids. I was an extreme oddity at that age and if I could go back and be another kid in that class I'd probably make fun of me. Paul: So North Carolina didn't exactly work out, how many years were you there? Erin: We were there for three years, and then we moved to Ojai. Paul: And was the three years in North Carolina all kind of the same shitty level of feeling like an outsider? Erin: No, fourth grade was the worst, and I think I just sort of... you know, the blessing of grade school is that kids do forget over the summer, and so fifth grade started and I knew not to bring up shit like that. And I had a much nicer teacher who would've let me hang out with her if I'd wanted to. And it just was sort of forgotten. And I was never a popular kid, but after that it wasn't awful, you know. I'd say the hypochondria got worse and worse as I got older. By the time I was...like I started having really weird abdominal pain when I was about 17, and it continued through college, and right after college, it had stayed at the same level, but I think now I was so afraid of then moving on after college. I remember getting out and being like "Well...I have to move out now? And just get a job?" And it was so terrifying that I feel like the pain got worse at that point and I ended up having surgery to see what it was. It was nothing. Paul: You think the anxiety that you were going to be separated from your family? Erin: Not even separated from my family, that I would have to move forward in an adult way. Which is still a fear of mine but I just keep doing it. Paul: So what would the doctors say when, I mean to you the abdominal pain was very real, right? Erin: Well, and I still have that same pain. I have no idea what it is. It's probably some kind of weird, inflamed... Paul: Is it constant? Erin: Yeah, it's daily but not all day. And I have, I have also developed weird stomach problems... Paul: Join the club. Erin: Yeah? Paul: Oh yeah. Erin: Really? I don't know what mine is, specifically. It started really quickly three years ago. I got some kind of stomach virus and I've not been able to digest most foods since then. Which is really weird. Paul: I have a book for you to read, and I've talked about it on the show before. It's called The Body Ecology Diet. Erin: That's like the Candida diet, right? Paul: That's exactly what it is. Erin: I did try that. Paul: And it didn't work? Erin: No. I tried it for, and I don't know... Paul: Were you really good about it? Erin: Oh my God! I was so good that by the time it wasn't working and I was finished with it, I was dreaming about cupcakes and wine. I didn't do alcohol, sugar, bread, caffeine, anything canned, certain kinds of vegetables that are too sugary, I went nuts on it. And didn't see any change, and after like five months of doing it, I was finally like "This is enough". And what you're supposed to do if you get off an extreme diet like that is work your way back in? I went onto the bottle of wine and pint of ice cream per night diet for five months and gained 25 pounds. Paul: Oh my God! Did the symptoms come back worse, or did they.... Erin: They totally came back worse, because at that point I was eating way worse than I ever had in the past. Paul: Who wouldn't feel like shit doing that? Erin: Anyone would feel awful, I like constantly had a hangover in the morning, and explosive diarrhea from the ice cream. It was really not... Paul: Oh, that's a bad combination. Erin: Clearly I was dating a ton during this time. Paul: Well, the nice thing is when you wake up in the morning you got stuff to do. You know what you're going to do. You're going to go sit on the toilet and you're going to hate yourself. Erin: Yeah, you have a plan. Yeah. And you don't need an alarm. 5:30 every morning. Paul: That's a sweet little to-do list! Erin: Yeah! Paul: So has alcohol ever been an issue for you? Erin: Not a huge issue. There have been times, like now I've found that I've gotten into such a habit of going out for drinks after shows and rehearsals, that it wasn't so much that I was drinking a lot, it was that I was drinking so often. And I would suddenly go, I've had two beers every night for five nights in a row, and it just seemed unnecessary. You know, you're a little more groggy the next day. So I just haven't been doing that at all. Paul: So what are some of the other hypochondria symptoms? The pain in the stomach... Erin: The pain in the stomach...it's all, like, intestinal. And it's hard to say if that's hypochondria, because it's definitely real, I mean it's stuff that's happening. Paul: Right. But would it be like, was it like just a pain in the background, or was it like "This fucking hurts, I'm in misery".... Erin: Oh, I thought you meant the digestive stuff. You mean that pain? Paul: Yeah, that pain... Erin: No, it's just on and off for no apparent reason. I have no idea what it is. And then I've also, like I mentioned when we met at the coffee shop, I mentioned that I've had female troubles, which started when I was 21, I was on a road trip with my... Paul: You don't mean a copy of the movie Female Trouble, by John Waters? Erin: Yeah, I had that DVD on me, and I carried it with me, and that was so hard in my dating life. People...weren't into...You can't read a DVD over dinner. Paul: So, you know, I like to have an ill-timed joke at least once in every episode. Erin: Keep going. That way I won't have to use the Kleenex next to me. Terrified of it. Paul: Yeah. When you say female troubles, is that as specific as you would like to get? Erin: No, I'll get into some of it. I know, I emailed you during the week and was panicking. I did have this fear that you would turn into Barbara Walters and lead me down a route of questions that I would not know how to stop. But I think...I know I can stop anytime I want. I read that book in junior high. Paul: And we can always edit something out if afterwards you're like "I wish I hadn't said that". I don't want this show to ever become a gotcha kind of thing? Ah, look what I got outta them! Erin: And I knew it wasn't…I would never have agreed to do it. You know, like when I met you I knew that wasn't the case. It was almost like I had to send the email just so that I didn't feel like I had promised you a topic and and then somehow... I just wanted to make sure my comfort zone was like "I'm talking about this because there's so many funny things to be gleaned from it." It's also that I think it's something people don't know much about. So I don't mind talking about it. But it's one of those...at some point I might go "That's enough detail in that area." So, when I was 21, I was on a road trip with my boyfriend at the time, and we were having sex and everything was fairly normal, and we were driving back and I suddenly had what felt like a pin going into my clitoris. Like, it was the most pain I've ever been in in my life. Paul: Really! Erin: And I was like "Pull over, I don't know what's happening, something's in my underwear, something must be cutting me. " There's nothing there. We had to drive twelve hours, still. Paul: Oh my god! Erin: And I was probably crying the entire time. Cause it wasn't like an on-and-off, it was constant. And I...by the end of the trip, I can't believe we dated after that, because it was me just torturing him because I was in so much pain for twelve hours straight, and refusing to drive because I couldn't sit up. I was like yanking my pants away from myself. Paul: Were you tempted to go to an emergency room? Erin: No, because I hate those doctors. I'm so scared of them. Paul: Oh my god! What torture! Erin: And I mean, let me tell you on that note, just digress for one second. I got an email from Amazon the other day. Subject heading: your shipment of plastic vaginal speculums has shipped. Which is like, something that you wish was a mistake. But I did order them because Kaiser uses metal ones and they scare me so I got my own. I was like "What has happened to you? Why is that in your inbox?" Everybody else orders DVDs and I order fucking speculums. Paul: Your copy of Goodfellas has shipped! Erin: Oh God. Paul: Pardon me for being ignorant, what is the speculum used for? Erin: So the speculum, when they do an exam, it's like the duck-shaped thing, it goes in small but then they crank it open? Paul: Right, so it can open it. But why would you be using that by yourself? Erin: No, I wouldn't. I would be bringing it. Paul: Oh, you bring it to Kaiser. Erin: It's a BYOS at Kaiser. Because they use these huge metal ones, which, number one I think, I don't know if you cleaned that, and also it's metal so it's cold, it feels sharp, you can hear it clicking... Paul: Why don't they put it in warm water before... Erin: They can, but it's been sitting in a freezing cold hospital room, it's like, they'll go "I'm going to run it under warm water for you" because it's in my chart that I've asked for that, it doesn't do anything. And it freaks...I don't want metal up inside. It feels like having sex with a robot. Paul: Is it possible that they're using the speculum to eat ice cream before they come in? Erin: Yeah maybe. It is very much like a scoop. Paul. So getting back then to when this first started happening, when you were twenty-one, how did you cope every day with this? Erin: At that time especially on the onset. And I didn't know what it was. Paul: Was it that intense of a feeling every day? Erin: For many months. And so when I... Paul: Did you ever think about suicide? Erin: No. Well, I will say this, I would have that "Oh my God I'm going to kill myself" thought, but it was never a ser—I've never had —I don't think I've ever had a serious thought of that. But it's been bad to where I'd fantasize about cutting my entire area out, and wanting just a Barbie crotch. That still sounds kind of amazing to me, like just zero maintenance. Plastic, you know. I don't think they do that. Paul: You know, I have to tell you, there were times in my life, in my late teens, early twenties, when I was so sexually frustrated that that would've sounded like a good idea to me. Where my sexuality just felt like a burden, like an anvil I was carrying around. Erin: You were so turned on...I don't think you can compare that to.... Paul: No, no, I mean mine was obviously not...I'm not comparing pain, but I'm saying I know what it's like to have that feeling that you just want that area taken out of you because... Erin: It's all-consuming. Paul: It's consuming. Erin: It's like there's a spot in your brain with a direct route to that. Other parts of your body you can ignore. That is not one of them. Paul: Right. Erin: I understand, you're right. I think yours is probably worse, being turned on sounds way worse. Paul: No. I think yours is worse, but, ah, we digress. So, how is this...at this point, this has got to be completely shutting your sexuality down, or are you still getting aroused and you want to have sex, but this is blocking it? Erin: No, at that point, when it started, pain trumped...you know, when you're in that much pain you just don't get turned on. Just doesn't happen. Paul: Sure. Erin: At that point we got back and I went to the gynecologist that I knew. Paul: And your boyfriend had obviously...was gone by this time, or was he still with you? Erin: No, we were still together at this point, just not having sex. And I went to the doctor, I honestly was like oh my God, what if I got an STD? Even though we were careful, I just assumed it had to be something like that. She did every test you can, it was nothing like that. She diagnosed me in probably five different ways, and tried pills and whatnot, thinking it was an infection. It never was, it just wasn't. They couldn't find anything. Eventually the pain has, it like goes down, there are times when it's almost zero, there's days where it's up high again. Paul: Any idea what makes it vacillate? Erin: There's not really triggers. Um, yeah not that I can really tell. There's not really triggers. But eventually he and I broke up, and I was sort of at a dead end at this point. You know, she'd tried to diagnose me so much. Paul: Was this the reason or did it contribute greatly to the breakup? Erin: I think it...I'm sure that it did, except that, you know it's one of those things where we were together for four years. Three years after this happened. Not having sex. And I think when you look at it that way, there's way more to it than that going on. In my mind we were both two super-depressed people who had just moved to L.A. and didn't know anybody else, so we stayed together. Cause I can't imagine from his point of view, really, why he would stay. I'm not that fun. Paul: That's why, you know, I had that kind of insensitive comment a couple of minutes ago where I said "well, now your boyfriend is obviously gone at this point" cause I don't know of any guy in that part of his life that is going to hang around for three years with those hormones and not being able to express it....I could see if you were feeling sexual desire there's certainly other ways that you can please each other, but if you're not even feeling sexual desire, that's so important at that age. Erin: It is, and that's why I sort of think there was just other stuff going on. You know, I was 21 when we got together. I can't say we got together for the best reasons. We were neighbors, and we are now neighbors again in a different building. But it's fine because there are no feelings left there. But we stayed together, I think, too long, and were really codependent on our friendship. but also, like, bringing out the worst in each other all the time. And I think that you grow so much from 21 into your mid or late twenties, that I was just done with him and he was done with me. We just hung in there way too long. Paul: Yeah, it's like you're, I don't know, what's the word, trauma bonding? Or, ah, that dynamic where your sicknesses almost come to represent who you are. They become like these two extra people in the room that rule everything. Erin: It is, and we would both rationalize it, because we had so many friends who would point out the obvious, which was "kind of seems like you guys are holding each other back" like, even after we broke up, we would hang out as if we were a couple. And there was really no diference, because we hadn't been physical for so long. And so friends would say, you know, "do you ever think about taking a break? Seems kind of unhealthy to be friends this quickly" and both of us were so far in denial that we were like you know, other people, I"m sure they have a hard time, but we are so mature, and such smart people, that we can handle this, and we're really really good friends, and it doesn't affect our lives. Neither of us are dating. Neither of us are doing, like, anything. And so when that finally, when we finally separated, he immediately started dating somebody, and I was dating on and off. Paul: Now when you start dating somebody, do you...when do you let them know that you have to deal with this issue? Erin: You know, I haven't dated anybody— Paul: And does that cause you anxiety? Erin: Yeah! So much anxiety. I have so much anxiety when it comes to that. I really haven't dated anyone seriously for a while. I ended up dating a Christian guy, which I would never date long term because I don't think Christianity would go with my having been raised by two atheists self. But the perfect thing was he didn't want to have premarital sex, so I just sort of rode along like "this is his decision, not mine" and that lasted three months. But that's the longest I've had since this long-term boyfriend, because I think I have so much anxiety, I don't get to that conversation. Honestly, most of the time. I sabotage it myself, or they might just not be interested, that's a possibility too. Well, and I did finally end up seeing doctors who were able to do, like a much more conclusive diagnosis and recommended kinds of therapy which I've tried, some that was helpful, some was not. But when I found out there was actually a specialist who deals with this, it made me feel much less crazy. Because up until that point doctors would go, "Eh, it's probably in your head." Paul: What does that make you feel like when somebody tells you that the feeling that a pin is going into your clitoris is coming from your brain? Erin: It's such a defeat. Like I would sit there and just sort of stare at them and think "O.K., I guess I'm just fucking nuts then." But I wasn't nuts in other parts of my life. You know what I mean? Well, more than just...myself— Paul: You know, while I do believe there's a relationship between...emotional pain manifesting itself physically in people, I believe that that does happen, yours sounds like it's so specific and so intense. How could it be just generated from the mind? Erin: Well, and then, what I've learned about it just from the doctors I've seen in the last year or so, is that the overall term is vulvodynia, which is such a fun disease or disorder to tell people that you have. The worst name that you could think of. But because it can sometimes attach— Paul: Isn't that Bjork's hometown? Erin: Yeah, and it's cold up there. Frigid, even. Paul: So go ahead. That's too, that's too inappropriate. I'm going to see if I can get the third one in before— Erin: Keep going. Paul: —before we're done. Erin: If I start crying do it right away. Right away. Paul: Okay. Erin: Um, what was I— Paul: Vulvodynia. Erin: Yeah, OK. So a lot of it has to do with the nerves. Once the nerves, especially in an area like that where there's so very many of them—there's more nerves in that area of my body than anywhere else—they develop a memory. So once they've felt pain that's intense and that's lasted for several months, they can keep feeling the pain whether or not it's there. Meaning the pain is real but there may not be a real cause. And that's a pathway that's been created in my body. So they tried, like, neural blockers, which are just medicine you take to sort of block the nerves, that works on some people, it didn't work on me. I had to go to physical therapy for it. Paul: No! Erin: Yeah, which was when I started doing standup, because it was the only way I could handle having an Asian woman's finger up my vagina. I would just tell jokes the whole time. Paul: Did you really? Erin: It was the...otherwise I would've been aware of what was happening, and been going "what the fuck is wrong with my life", which I was doing, but...I also started tweeting at that point, because I needed an outlet. Paul: That is so awesome, though, Erin, that you can treat this respectfully and that you are seeking a solution for it, but not take it so personally that you can't laugh about it and be open about it. Erin: Honestly, it was a turning point even getting this. Or I should say, really attacking it. Because there was a time about two years ago, before I got on the team at UCB. I was doing a ton of improv, but that was the only reason I was leaving the house. I was driving to Irvine, like three hours in traffic, twice a week to get physical therapy to go to a healer, because they recommend that. When a doctor recommends New Age, you know you're in trouble, because they're really grasping. So I was getting healing, acupuncture— Paul: Did the healing or the acupuncture do anything? Erin: Acupuncture helped my stomach. But it's one of those things where if you don't get it weekly or biweekly it stops working, and that's pricy. Yeah. So I was getting all this done and I really was sinking into a dark, dark, depression. Paul: So you had gone to one of those people who believes it's bound up energy from emotional trauma, and they're going to release that, and that didn't work. Erin: It didn't work, and I was seeing her once a week for six to eight months, at 250 bucks a pop, plus acupuncture, plus the healing...Kaiser doesn't have a....they don't do this. They say they have specialists for it, and when I saw their specialist, she examined me, did what they call a touch test to see where it hurts, which is really fun, and then said, with this really sad look on her face, "I don't know honey, I think you're just going to have be kind of your own expert when it comes to this." And that was Kaiser's top top. Paul: Wow. You know, I've heard a lot of horror stories about Kaiser, and they strike me as the type of place that really has to think about whether or not they're going to sew your leg back on. Erin: Yeah. Absolutely, cause they go, "you're not a runner, right? So you could probably go without it. Probably be OK." Paul: Yeah. This doesn't affect your ability to make money, cause that's all we know people are worth. Erin: If I was a prostitute, maybe they would've fixed me, because they'd be like "Well, it's her income. We really need to get on top of that." Paul: It's fucking with her cash flow. We know what that pain is like. Erin: This is job-related. Paul: So you're going from place to place to place, spending— Erin: Went into twenty thousand dollars in debt on credit cards. Paul: Oh my God! Erin: Because I was also not—I was doing freelance writing, this was when I was writing for a dating website, because I lied and said I was a girl-about-town, dated all the time. So this guy hires me, and I write about the three dates I'd had in recent memory, and then I'm like, "oh, I'm out of information." So I just started writing things, l'd say, like "Dating is like a horror movie, and write about how it was like that." Paul: and um, did anybody ever catch on that you really didn't have this dating life going on? Erin: Oh yeah, I would even write about it. At that point I figured, I'm not making enough that I care if he fires me, I'd rather this just be funny. And I think it was. The people who read it, who were probably ten of my Facebook friends, thought it was great. Or they were lying to me. But you know, the joke of it was, just because I don't do it doesn't mean I can't give you my opinion. Paul: Right. You have done it in the past. Erin: Did it a couple times. I remember what dating looked like. I seem to recall that you small talk a little bit, maybe make out at some point. Paul: So, is it even possible for you to be physically intimate with somebody? Erin: It is, I at this point— the way I feel is that I would need to have very strong feelings for someone to even broach the subject, and then to even explore stuff. I think it is absolutely possible, but I'm in a place where I don't know how to get to that, quite honestly. I can feel my anxiety building with each date, cause it kind of feels like lying to not say it, and I hate to put it this way but I sometimes feel like a spider, like I'm luring them in before I tell them this information. And that's not a fun— Paul: No, that's so sad to think of yourself in that way, because — then again if I were you I don't know what else I would do because you don't want the first thing— "hey, you're kind of cute, would you like to go out for coffee, well you should know that sometimes it feels like ahhh—" Erin: Yeah, it feels really inappropriate and unnecessary, And the thing with this too is I've been very protective about talking about it because people have really different reactions to it. I had mentioned it to an old friend from Ojai, a guy, and we had gone for dinner one night, just like an old friends catching up, and at one point he suddenly was just in a bad mood, and I said "what's going on?" and he goes, "I'm just frustrated. I always date women who I consider sexual victims, or who have sexual weaknesses and they usually really respond to me and you're not responding to any of my flirting and you're not sort of letting me dominate, and I'm really angry about that." I think he was also really proud of himself for being so aware, of being a fucking psychotic person. But I was like "oh, me telling you this makes you think I'm a victim and sexually weak?" Because I actually don't see it that way. I mean it sucks, but it's a disorder. It's nothing to do with me...as much as it affects my sexuality, it doesn't affect me being a strong person. It's not like, oh, I'll take what I can get. Paul: Right! Erin: You know, if some guy's willing to put up with me. Paul: And you're not using it to play the self-pity card, which a lot of people do. They have such a low sense of self that they're like, "Well, here's a role I can play. I'll play the poor me role." Erin: No no no. I did it in fourth grade. That's the last time I did it. I never wanted to ever— Paul: That's amazing that you — had you ever made that connection before? Erin: No, just when you said that I thought, oh yeah, I learned that lesson early. Paul: Yeah, bad taste in your mouth playing that self-pity card. Holy shit. "My Dad's dead." "We don't give a shit. Hey, dodgeball!" Oh my God. So yeah, I have so much respect for the way that you're walking through this. I can't imagine what I would do if I were in your shoes. Erin: It's the kind of thing too where if I didn't have this and a girlfriend told me about it, I'd be like "I would die. That sounds the worst— how would you deal with that. It's like anything else, when it's happening to you, you suddenly go, well — Paul: You adapt. Erin: You just do. And like I was saying, when I was realizing how depressed I was getting about everything and how dark things started to look, It was when I suddenly went, like "This is funny". People have stuff and this one is actually funny. It's not fun in my life, but the idea that I am telling new jokes, to a little woman who's like "How's the left side feel? Tight?" Yeah, it's good. Boy, did you see that Jane Austen movie? Boy I wish I could live back then, I could trick guys into marrying me, right? Paul: Is the theory behind her giving you treatment there that there's too much tension? Erin: I think that theory was that if it was nerve-related, that, because what's happened is it's gotten kind of worse and worse over the years whereas the intense pain has depleted, the whole area just feels so sensitive, I think it is from like, let's say you had pain in your hand, and it wouldn't go away, you start clenching and sort of anticipating, and your muscles in that area get really really tight. Which is sort of what's happened to me. And if that' a turn-on to anybody, gross. Like, super gross. Paul: Oh, you mean because it would be so tight, like...I just got that. Erin: So tight. So that was the theory behind it. I saw her for almost a year and there'd be like ups and downs and ups and downs. Over the course of that time not enough for me to continue going. Especially because I was paying out of pocket. Or I should say my Mom was helping me pay out of pocket. Credit card debt was already up at that point. Paul: Oh my God. Erin: I know. This is not me feeling sorry for myself though. I did then, I paid it all off, and it's— Paul: I don't get that feeling at all from you and that's ultimately what...when this podcast is working, in my opinion, is when people come on, and they share about their pain, and they don't share from a place of self-pity and sadness, though it's OK to feel sadness. They share from a place of "Here's what I have control of about it, and here's how I'm taking that little bit of control I have." Erin: And here's also how this thing has contributed to who I am. Cause I think I couldn't see that for a long time. It felt like the person I was had to wait and be on the side of this huge thing I was dealing with, and until I got it done with, I had to wait. Paul: Oh right! Like my life is going to be on hold because I'm not a full person. Erin: Yeah. That's really what it felt like, and it was so intense trying to deal with it. And I think I'm kind of in a holding pattern when it comes to really attacking it again. But I think when I suddenly was like, no, I can't do that. This is just, I'm going to keep doing my life and keep doing comedy, and like, I've gotten really funny writing out of it. And this is actually, I think I mentioned, this is the first time I've really talked about it. I think two people at the theater even know about this, and I had this fear, of course, that I would say it and be seen as, number one, someone to pity, which I...the worst reaction someone can have is like, "Oh my God —" Paul: You poor thing! Erin: I honestly can't stand that reaction. And I get it, it's not that I think they're being unkind. They're trying to be kind. Paul: It's their primitive way of trying to be unkind. Erin: But it's so, you know, I think it's also the same reason why— Paul: If somebody came up to you and said "I think it's really brave of you the way you've talked about that", would that be insulting to you? Erin: Oh, it's not insulting and I don't even think the other is insulting— Paul: Or would it make you uncomfortable? Erin: Maybe, cause I don't want...you know, one of the reasons I also didn't talk about it is I was thinking to myself, like, most of your guests are so...they already have really successful careers. And I feel like I'm on my way there, but I thought, I don't want to get known as just...this weird thing. But I don't, actually I don't know. Paul: I have quite a few guests that aren't in show business. Erin: I guess I didn't listen to all of them. Paul: That's all right, we've done thirty-five, thirty-six episodes, so there's...I don't expect anybody to have listened to all the episodes. Erin: You know, it's not like being the face of cancer, and you're standing up and helping other people. Like, It doesn't feel brave, it just kind feels like, well, this is this thing I have, I don't want it to be the biggest thing about me, which, because it is so weird and big, my fear is that in telling people, that's what it will become. And you know, it honestly isn't. While it is a concern, my brain is in more like, I need to get a manager, and why am I not acting more, and I hope I get this book finished in time. Like, it's career thoughts and like...absolutely, when I'm watching Armageddon, and I've got my glass of wine going, I get a little sad thinking that I'll never be Liv Tyler in that Ben Affleck scene with the animal crackers, but.... Paul: Well, if I could share a story with you, I think one of the reasons why I feel like I can relate to your story a little bit, though I feel like yours is way, way more intense than what I went through...when I was a little kid, all boys, at a certain age their testicles descend, and mine didn't, and I had to have these operations to have them lowered— Erin: Oh my God. Paul: —and it was...I was about ten years old, and that's kind of the age at which you're really concerned about...you're beginning to get concerned about your body and— Erin: Yeah, you don't even want people to see you in your underwear! Paul: I was so afraid that people were...and the doctors were so dismissive, they're like "Oh, the normal testicle is the size of this, and his is the size of this," and it was just...and the way they would probe me, I felt like a piece of meat. I remember one time, they took me to a specialist at the University of Chicago, and for some reason they had me take...it was me, my Mom and they had me take all my clothes off and wait. And so I'm sitting there naked on this cold table, waiting for the doctor to come in. And he comes in with a group of about eight people. And I could feel myself leave my body. That feeling you know, of your...and I remember just thinking "why is this happening? Doesn't he know that this is horrifying for me?" And he's prodding me and talking to the other people as if I'm not even a human being, and my Mom did nothing, and I remember, I don't remember consciously thinking, "why aren't you stepping in and protecting me?" But what I remember most from that day was I looked over...I was staring up at the ceiling, with this bright light, and I looked over to the right, and I made eye contact with a female intern, and she smiled at me, this smile like "this must be terrible for you, I know that this is really painful." And I don't remember, but I think I remember I either choked back tears or I started crying. And after that...I had the surgery for it, and you weren't supposed to...and the surgery was fucking brutal. They would attach an elastic cord to your testicle, and then the other end of the cord, they would put your leg in a cast, and that cord would then attach to your leg which was frozen, so it was constantly pulling your testicle down to make it descend— Erin: Oh my God! Paul: So you had to sit with this thing for like a couple of weeks, and then after they took it off, they said you shouldn't ride a bike. And I thought they meant you shouldn't pedal, so I got rides from people, which fucked it up. So it made, to this day, one testicle higher than the other. And right after that time, all of a sudden now you're in junior high, and you're having to take showers with groups of people. And I just felt deep, deep shame. And I thought for the longest time, no woman is ever going to love me, cause she's going to see that my testicles aren't even, and she's going to think I'm a freak. And to this day, I have to tell you, when I play hockey, and I get undressed in the locker room, I'm still self-conscious of it. I still get that feeling that people look at me like, not like a freak, but....odd. Erin: God, it's one of those things where you go, everyone has something. You would never know, cause I can't tell looking at you in these pants. But also, it's so sad that at that age, as a kid— Paul: Your ego is so wrapped up in what other people think of you — Erin: It's so wrapped up—But you also hadn't learned yet that women look at testicles and go "I dunno, that's just a mass of something down there". Like I don't know — Paul: They were probably repulsed by it to begin with. Erin: If a guy had one, I wouldn't know. I would not know. Paul: This is information I could've used. I mean, I agonized for years and years about that, just like...the first time I would take my clothes off with a girlfriend, I would just...I would want it to be dark, or— Erin: And she probably had no idea! Paul: No one ever said anything... Erin: And they would! Women would...I would. Paul: Really. Erin: Not about...I would never notice that, but if there was something noticeable and I was intimate with someone, yeah. I'd be like, what's going on here? Paul: That would've crushed me. That would've crushed me. Erin: I think women would do...but I don't think they ever noticed. Paul: Right. I don't know, but when you were telling your story, it just, something in me felt like, like I knew a little bit about what you were experiencing, and I couldn't really place it until I was like, oh, that feeling that you're broken down there, that you're not normal, that's it, not broken, but you just want to be normal! Erin: It's just like, it's not functioning, it's a huge part of life...that's the thing too, I've had friends being so supportive and kind, will sometimes say things where you get so depressed by their reaction, but I'll have friends say "Well, sex just isn't that big of a deal in a relationship" and you go, not if you can have it normally it's not. Because then it's a given. You know, and I've also had friends who are like "I bet out there there's some guy whose penis hurts" and you think...I'm not retarded, I don't want to go to special school to meet people like me. That's not— Paul: I don't want to be Corky and his girlfriend. Working the fry thing at McDonald's. Erin: And that's what it feels like, where you're...no no no no no, I don't get a special room for this, I want all the options you have. Paul: So how would you like people to, if they're going to talk to you about it, or would you just like it not to be talked about? Erin: I don't think that's something I have control over. Do you know what I mean? Like, especially deciding to talk about it in the first place, people are going to have their reactions. And I want them to. I think the one thing I don't like is any guy who sort of sees it as "Hey baby, I'll do you a favor. I can deal with that." Gross, I want no part of that. Paul: Especially if he calls you baby. Erin: Yeah! I'm speaking specifically because I guarantee you I will have Twitter followers who are like "I'll go out with you," and they're in some basement in Detroit— Paul: As if that was the most important thing...like that's the front door to the house, is, we gotta get through this thing. And then we'll see if you're a nice guy. Not the other way around, which is how it should be. Erin: Yes, thank you! Right, right. And that's exactly the fear, is that— Paul: That it will define you. Erin: That it will define me, and make people see me as somehow like something to be...I don't know, I don't know what word I'm looking for...put up with? As opposed to wanted. That's terrible. Paul: Oh I see. Yeah yeah yeah. Erin: But not only do I not want that, but I don't want someone reassuring...I don't need reassurance. I think that's my fear of confessing anything to anyone. Paul: Is intercourse out of the question? Or is it something that you would just have to see how it goes? Erin: Without getting into uncomfortable detail, it is something I feel like could probably be worked on with a long-term partner. It is not something I would be doing at the beginning of a relationship with someone I didn't know where it was going. Paul: Yeah, plus too, people can get really creative, sexually, and express their intimacy in...there's so many different ways to express your love to another person and still even have it be orgasmic. It's like, I don't know— Erin: There are...I think it's become, because it's always been something I felt was temporary and hopefully it still is, but I always just thought, "I'll deal with this when it goes away." And that then ended up making it feel like something I shouldn't talk about which therefore makes you feel really ashamed of it. And so, there are other creative ways, but I always felt like "Oh, I'm really sorry, I have this..." Even when I've sort of broached it with guys, I've done it in such a roundabout way, I'm sure they had no idea what was really going on. And just thought that either I was sensitive or that they were total goons. Which...it was sometimes both. Paul: Well, lets...it's so funny, we weren't sure whether or not we were going to talk about this and now we've spent so much time talking about it. Erin: It ate up so much of the— Paul: But what are some...do you feel like you still have hypochondria issues to this day? Erin: Yes. Paul: Aside from that, let's put that whole discussion that we've had...we're done with that. Erin: I'll keep it in my pants. Paul: Let's talk about other...kind of — Erin: Yeah. I mean I still, any time my back hurts I assume it's like liver or kidney. I went to an acupuncturist once because I was absolutely convinced that, I don't know, some body part I'd looked up on WebMD was hurting. I told him all about it. He let me go on for 20 minutes before telling me it was on the other side of my body. My spleen, I think I thought it was my spleen. It's just always, if a cold goes on for too long, I go in and have them check me for meningitis. I sometimes go to urgent care like four or five times a month. Paul: Really! Erin: Yeah. I went before a date, about a year ago, because I had so much anxiety about the date that I broke out in hives and then I started peeing every ten minutes, and I was like, oh God, I've got a urinary tract infection! I've got to go take care of this and so I sat in urgent care for four hours, did not have an infection and as soon as I found that out the hives cleared up and I stopped peeing every ten minutes. Paul: Oh my God! Erin: But then I go on this date and he was like "What'd you do today?" I was like " I wrote, I wrote a lot." Paul: I wrote for four hours. Erin: I wrote for a long time. Paul: In my head, in the emergency room. Erin: I did tweet, I tweeted a lot. That counts, right? Paul: It sounds like you get a bad thought in your head and it just bounces and bounces and bounces and almost picks up energy. Erin: Yeah. It does. There's times too where I can kind of like, especially if I have to go do something, I'm much better at going, "Well, if you are dying, we will deal with this after you have this audition." Or, "You have a show, then you can go to Urgent Care and see if this is happening." Paul: I think everybody when they get like a pain, or an ache or something, goes "Ahhh, it's cancer!" But you take it and you really fucking run with it. Erin: I really go. Paul: I mean you buy the cancer book, you go to the hospital— Erin: There was a point where I had so little money left on my credit card that I ended up going into overdraft fees with co-payments to the doctor. And I was like alright, this is just sad. I got on a vitamin kick for a while, spent like four thousand dollars on vitamins. Paul: So are you to the point now where you are not going as frequently to the emergency rooms? Erin: I have not...yeah, the last few months I haven't. Maybe cause I'm so much busier. You know, I'm rehearsing twice a week and performing every week, which is so great, and performing on other teams, and writing. Paul: How about therapy? Have you ever seen a therapist? Erin: I've gone to a few. The problem has been I feel like I'm smarter than them, so I didn't really want them to give me advice. And I'm sure that there's someone really smart out there, just not at Kaiser. Paul: Now I've had a bunch of really good therapists, and I think you should give it another shot. Because— Erin: Do I seem like I'm that much a mess? Paul: I don't know, I think everybody is. Well, not everybody, but I think ninety percent of the population would benefit from therapy, but with someone who works themself up into such a state, what would you have to lose by trying it? You know, if you were to find the right person, I mean there's times that I've been through therapy and gotten breakthroughs. Like I remember the first breakthrough I had in therapy was, my Mom used to do this thing, I don't even know if it was conscious on her part, if she wasn't getting her way with something she would start to cry on the phone, and so I would change my stance on something so she wouldn't cry. And my therapist said, "well have you ever tried just letting her cry?" And I was like "that means you're a bad person if you let your Mom cry." And she said "No it's not. Why don't you try it?" And the next phone call I had with my Mom she started to cry, and I said, "you can continue crying but I'm not changing how I feel." And she stopped crying immediately. And when I hung up the phone, I felt like I was twice as big as I was before, and I felt this weight kind of lift off my shoulders. If I'd never gone to therapy, I'd never have arrived at that by myself. And so I think by not at least checking it out, I think you lose the potential to have breakthroughs like that. And for somebody that is experiencing the kind of battles in their head that you are, that would seem like definitely worth having to go through even three or four bad therapists. I've gone through about five psychiatrists until I found one that I liked. And it sucks, it fucking sucks going "I just wasted two hundred dollars". Erin: It's exhausting. Paul: It's exhausting! Erin: Yeah. And I know there's the part of me that was going to politely be like "I think you're right, and I'm going to really look into that." I don't want to. I feel like I coast on the "but it's great for my art" and I have so many friends that are therapists. Paul: I think that's bullshit. I think that's bullshit and I think it's a cop-out. Erin: I think it's bullshit too. I know that's what it is. You know, and in a way it's true. You use it. It doesn't go unused. But it absolutely could be used if it was being— Paul: I think your art would come out in the way that is more dimensional by getting those insights about yourself. I don't think it ever takes away that anxiety of "I want to be heard, I need to express myself, I'm full of angst." I just think what we're anxious about then maybe moves on to something else. And we're never going to run out of things to feel anxious about. But each one that we conquer or we lessen, our life becomes a little bit richer because of that. Erin: Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. I think if I had different insurance and was recommended to someone who seemed savvy and interesting and...like, I want a TV therapist. You know? Like on Ally McBeal? Those therapists are so quirky and smart and fun. The ones I've gone to wear pantyhose. And I think that's a bad sign. I do. I feel like if somebody's wearing those, already their perspective on life is going to be not what I'm looking for. Paul: You know, I've had therapists that dressed like shit, that were...that had some really great advice for me. Erin: So I can't judge people by what they wear? Paul: Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I'd suggest being a little more open. But sometimes, we've just got to do shit on our own schedule. Erin: Yeah, I mean, I definitely, in not seeking therapy I don't go, "Ahh, I just won't think about this. I do look at stuff, I do have friends who are therapists, so I use them. Like, hey, let's just have a conversation about...what should I do with my life? Paul: Do you think they ever get drained by you? Erin: No, I'm actually the person that people come to for advice. I'm very rarely...I joke that I use them, but my best friend, I'll call her maybe every six months and be, "can I bounce a thought off you?" Paul: Oh yeah, that's not— Erin: It's not a...I'm generally that person that...I much prefer to give advice. I much prefer to be the person helping. Paul: Do you think it's possible that you—and please don't be insulted by this—do you think it's possible that you think you know more than you do, and that there is— and I'm not saying this based on what I know about you—but even the most intelligent people I know...emotion doesn't obey logic or intelligence. And that's the thing that I've run into with like people that get stuck. It's been my experience that a large majority of people that get really stuck in emotional stuff are really intelligent people. Because there's a certain belief that it's about intelligence, but a lot of times it's not. It's just about the process of opening up and talking about something. And not even necessarily about the quality of the person hearing you, they're there kind of guiding you and nudging you, and you make the connections yourself, sometimes. But I don't want this show to become me trying to sell you on therapy. Erin: I know, it turned into the help hour. Do I think I'm probably not as smart as I think? Yeah. Absolutely. Although on the other side of that I'll think, I'm a fluke, I'm dumb. Paul: I'm a piece of shit, I'm the king. Erin: Yes. Vacillate back and forth wildly. Paul: And very rarely in between. Almost never am I one of many. I think to performers, that's the most terrifying thought ever. Erin: It's one of the ones I wrote down. Paul: Oh! We've got to do a Fear-Off! Erin: I know. It is. But I'd almost rather—I was thinking about this on the way over—I'd rather be remembered as the villain than not be remembered at all. And I'm talking about history. Disney history, specifically. Paul: Oh yeah. That makes total sense to me. Erin: Yeah, even if it was for something terrible. Please, please, please remember me. At all. Paul: Yes. That is my deepest-seated fear, that my life will be forgettable. Erin: Yeah. Absolutely. And it is really sad to think that just being normal would be a worst-case scenario. Paul: Yeah. Well, let's do a Fear-Off. As I've said before, I've currently shared every fear that I can think of, there's more in me, they just haven't bubbled to the surface. So I'm using listeners' fears to compete with you. Erin: Oh, Wow! Paul: So I'll be continuing with Sean's fears. So I'll start. Sean says, "I'm afraid I'll never figure out some kind of social support or friends or family members that I feel like I fit in with. Erin: I'm afraid of suddenly going crazy. Paul: Sean says, "I'm afraid another tornado will wreck my shit." Erin: That sounds legitimate. There's another tornado. I'm afraid of doing something impulsive and horrible. Paul: Something will happen to my dog. Erin: Getting brain damage. Paul: My dog doesn't have any genuine affection for me and I'm just some schlub that gives him stuff. That's really low self-esteem when you're worried that your dog's being phony with you. Erin: Oh my god, that's too...although I have gotten my feelings hurt by people's pets. This is secondary to getting brain damage. Getting it and not knowing I have it and being like Algernon. Paul: Right. Yeah, that's a good one. I'm afraid I'll never be able to lose weight. Erin: I'm afraid that it's actually too late for me and the time that I had to succeed is over and past. Paul: Oh yeah, I definitely have that one. I'm afraid I'm a horrific disappointment to everyone who's ever known me. Erin: I'm afraid of hitting someone with my car. Paul: I'm afraid I'll never find a job with my shit-tacularly lacking resume especially in this shitty economy. I like the word "shit-tacularly". Erin: Yeah, and you pronounced it really well. I'm afraid of killing or hurting somebody. Paul: I'm afraid I'm in the way of my parents enjoying their later years. Erin: I'm afraid I'm disappearing into some caricature of my grownup—wow, I wrote this out—disappearing into some caricature grownup version of who I really am. Paul: I'm afraid I'm genuinely unlikeable and people just graciously put up with me. Erin: I'm afraid of flying. Paul: I'm afraid of getting in a wreck and causing permanent injury to someone else, or death. Erin: Ooh I had that one. He and I could get along. If we didn't hurt each other. I'm afraid of dying in public. Paul: Oh, that' s a good one, I've never gotten that one! That's a...every once in a while I just have to stop and bow down to a new fear that is so good, so juicy! That's like a porterhouse. If fears were cuts of meat, that's like a porterhouse with the fucking bone in. Erin: It goes right into how illogical fears are, because my fear of it is how embarrassing that would be. Paul: Yes! But you would be dead! Erin: I would be dead! Still. Paul: That's the ego, man, the ego is so... Erin: The ego lives on. Paul: It lives on, man. It lives on. Sean says: I'm afraid my Mom's MS will suddenly get magnitudes worse than the basically unnoticeable problem it is right now. Erin: Some of these are going to be repeats from earlier. I'm afraid of doctors, and getting a disease. Getting a fatal disease. Paul: I'm afraid that I'll inevitably lose my battle with all the issues in my head and eat a bullet. Wow, that's a dark one, but I certainly share that fear. Erin: Yeah. I'm afraid of people being frustrated with me. Paul: I'm afraid rich people will eventually be able to literally buy and sell us as commodities and somehow convince the masses that we're still free. Haha. Too late! Erin: These are so much more articulate than mine. My next one is— Paul: Yours are great! Erin: I'm afraid my fears aren't good enough. (laughter) I'm afraid of being found out as a fraud or a fluke. Paul: Oh God, that might be the most common one. Erin: Yeah. Paul: That just is at the core of everybody. Erin: Everybody! Paul: If they only knew...If they only knew how unlovable and fucked up I really am they would run. Erin: Right. And those times that I was great? Flukes. Something outside. Paul: Flukes. That was just me closing my eyes and hitting a home run. Erin: Yeah. Paul: Oh my God, do I relate to that. Sean says: I'm afraid I'll get robbed in my sleepy suburban house that I already don't feel safe in anyway. Erin: I'm afraid of being raped or abducted. Paul: I'm afraid of getting lost while driving. Erin: I'm afraid of dead bodies. Paul: I'm afraid I never actually mattered at any point in my life to anyone. Erin: Oh God. I'm afraid of dead body parts. Paul: Umm...afraid of fucking earthquakes. Erin: Afraid of heights. Paul: He says, I'm afraid I'll continue to feel like an old man long before I actually am. Erin: I'm afraid of vomiting. Paul: He says, I'm afraid I have no talent at anything whatsoever. Erin: I'm afraid of disappointing people. Paul: You have defeated Sean in the Fear-Off. Erin: Thank God! And I still had a couple to go. Paul: Did you really? Blast through the last couple ones you've got. Erin: Being tortured, uh, physical pain, getting old. Getting old is a big one. Paul: Yeah. Let me tell you, the older you get...well, maybe I should just speak for myself, but I think about it more than I did when I was in my twenties and thirties. You kind of become more aware of it. What I've found is if we keep working on ourselves that we have other areas of our lives that we get fulfillment out of. As our physical appearance....you know...at least that's what I've found, is that I get pleasure in my life from different things, the older I get. Erin: Oh my god, well, yeah, and in this town I can say, at my age, and sound sage, only in this town can I do that— Paul: You're in your twenties, aren't you? Erin: I'm thirty-two. I shouldn't say that on here. Edit that out. Uh, no I will often think, if I could just look the way I did and know what I do now in this industry. And then I think, would I actually want to go back? Oh God, no. No, I'm so much happier. Paul: Not for a second. Not for a second. Erin: I'm so much happier now than I was four years ago even. Like, incredibly. I love so many things in my life. Which I couldn't have said four years ago. Paul: And to anybody that's listening, I know we get a lot of listeners, I think the bulk of our listeners are in their twenties or thirties, that was to me some of the most stress-filled, self-induced stressful times in my life. Really not that much better than high school. You know everybody kind of points to high school as the epitome— Erin: It's just a different level, though, yeah. Paul: It's a different level and about different things. For some reason I think—and obviously you wouldn't know this because you're eight years away, but in my forties I feel like I just began to get comfortable in my skin. Erin: Wow. That's a long time for me. Paul: I guess you've got eight years of anxiety and trips to the emergency room. Erin: I have cut back on those a little bit. Paul: So what are some common negative thoughts you have toward yourself? Erin: Let me turn my page, I did that assignment too. Paul: You are—you really are—you're sucking up to the teacher. Erin: Of course I am. I was like, "I want to have the best fears and have him like me the most." Paul: Oh my God. Erin: I have negative thoughts and we can also do a Shame-Off, if you have time for that too. Paul: Right now I'm just obsessing over the fact that I referred to myself as a teacher, I just meant because I host the podcast, I don't think of myself as teaching people. Erin: Oh no, listen, you're teaching. If I had a pen, I'd be writing shit down. Paul: Well, that's very flattering. The last thing I want is — oh, you were kidding. The last thing I want is for people to think that I think of myself as above anybody in terms of knowledge about this shit. I do this show because it makes me feel less fucked-up and crazy. And other people relate to that, but I do not think of myself as this sage who is going to, you know— Erin: No, I'm the sage. I'm a thirty-two year old in Hollywood. Give me a fucking break. No, I don't see you that way and otherwise would not have made the joke. Otherwise would've been like, ugh, this guy is reallly...can't wait to get off this podcast. Paul: I do have anxiety a lot of times after I put an episode up because I'm so worried what people think. I'm so worried that people are going to— I very rarely think what was positive in the podcast, I look for it as almost like a fort of "Where can this be attacked?" Erin: Oh, that's how I look at everything I do. As if like, all that great stuff doesn't count, because you know, you can poke a hole in that condescending word I said. Paul: Exactly! Do you think that's at the root of everything is that view that other people aren't really there for us, we need to gird our loins cause they're fucking out to— Erin: Well, I do. Paul: They're out to take us down! Erin: I think it almost goes into — this is not me calling you this— I do think there may be an element of narcissism in there, that people are paying so much attention to us. Paul: Oh, absolutely! Erin: That they're looking...they're not looking for those things! Paul: They're not! They're wrapped up in their own shit. Erin: Yeah, and when you listen to something like this, when I listened to the few that I did, I was listening, being like, I can't wait to be entertained. This is so smart and great. No part of my mind was like "let me pick this apart", except I will say I was judging people's fears to see if mine would add up. And I was like, oh yeah I've got this in the bag. No, but in seriousness, people don't look at things that way. If they do, there's something wrong with them. People aren't looking to poke holes. But I do think there's that egotistical thing of like, the world is just staring at me, waiting. In a way you're like, in like a pleasureful way, like they just want me to fail, but I won't. Paul: Right! But I'm still a king. I'm like, King Piece of Shit. Erin: I'm King Piece of Shit! No, no, wait I'm in the dungeon, nobody likes me...No, I'm King. It's crazy. Paul: So crazy. It is. It is! That's so unhealthy. And that is what feels good to me about doing this show, is because instead of that thought, bouncing around my brain, I can share it with you and it takes that power away from it, and I realize, oh my God, here's one person that isn't trying to attack me. Maybe there's more. Erin: Right. Maybe there's a couple other listeners. No, and it's so funny when you talk about anything like this, because as soon as the words are out of your mouth, they lose power. I really do think it's the things you keep in your head, which goes back to what you were saying, where sometimes it's just getting it out— Paul: You just need to talk through it. Erin: But your brain can give so much power, especially when it's like "oh, you have this awful thing. Better not tell anybody." And then you say it and everyone's like "Yeah yeah, me too." Paul: Yeah! Erin: Yeah. Paul: Crazy. Erin: Crazy. Paul: So, common negative thoughts you have towards yourself. Erin: Some of these are going to fall in with Sean's fears. I fear that I'm actually unintelligent, and that I'm not intelligent enough to realize it. Which when you were like "maybe you're not as smart as you think" I was like "oh God, I know I'm not." Oh, no, Kleenex. Paul: And I didn't mean — Erin: I know you didn't mean it in a negative way. Paul: And I don't mean intelligence— you don't have the perspective that is necessary to lead the way out because it's not— like I said, it's not about logic sometimes, it's just seeing something from a perfect angle. I heard somebody describe one time why it's so important to reach out for help to another person instead of trying to figure it out for ourselves. He said, it's like trying to look at the back of your head. There's just certain things that only somebody else can do. Erin: Yeah. OK. I have a harsh, horsy face. Paul: No. Erin: I'm not capable of greatness. I'll always just be average. Kind of funny, kind of a good writer. Someone people like but don't adore. And then this one's similar: I'm nothing unique. I'm not ugly, I'm not beautiful. I'm not untalented, but I'm not super-talented. Every thought I have is cliche, and I think it's more clever than it really is. I'm a fluke, that was one we talked about. The relationships that I perceive to be real and rich, aren't, they are people pitying me or being fake. I'm both too complicated and messy as well as not interesting or special enough to love. I am sabotaging everything. I'll never be with anyone, it's too late for me to really be great, I can only hope for a second or third best of my abilities. Paul: That was great. You know I just realized, it's almost impossible to do those without it being like an extension of the fear list. Erin: Yeah, when I was reading them I was like, oh, these are the same. And even like, I wrote them down, and they're negative thoughts about myself, which doesn't mean I believe they're true, which I guess puts them in the fear category technically, but they feel true at the times that I'm feeling them. Paul: To me, it's kind of like the moon, it comes out, disappears for a little while, it comes back, but it's...what are those ones that keep re-emerging? And for me it's all variations of I don't have enough, I don't do enough, I'm not enough. It all kind of stems from that. Or, the deepest one that I uncovered recently, at the very very core of myself, is a belief that I don't matter. And that, when somebody pointed that out to me, another thing that I could not have gotten to on my own, but working with someone else. They said, "don't you see? All these things, all these self-hatreds you have about yourself. The core message here is that I don't matter. And I could see that was what linked them all together, and I was like "Wow." Do you ever feel like you don't matter? Erin: Yeah, and when I feel it within my small world, it feels awful, but weirdly, if I look through a telescope, or if I go up to the observatory and I'm staring at the night sky, the feeling of not mattering is incredibly comforting. Whenever I watch the planetarium show and Earth is but a speck, in a universe that is but a speck, or a galaxy...that feeling is amazing to me. It's almost like, oh yeah, none of this does matter. In a fantastic way. All these feelings and anxieties and successes and statuses— Paul: It's fleeting. Erin: We're a tiny dot in science. And that's not to say, so I'm going to give up and wait to spin into cosmic energy again. That's not scientific, but.... Paul: Would it be fair to say then, what the difference is, it's OK to feel that I'm not a big deal as long as I feel that none of us are a big deal. It's when I feel that other people are a big deal and I'm not. Erin: Maybe that's a good distinction. Yeah, I'm sure. Paul: Cause I get that feeling too, when I'm out in the mountains or something, and I'm surrounded by nature, and I'm just like, yeah, wow. Erin: Cause some people don't. I've heard people say that that show gives them anxiety. That it's the opposite, where that feeling of being small, it wrecks them. But so I think that must be the distinction when it comes to the way we're seeing it. Yeah, it's not mattering within a group that you really want to matter to, I guess. Paul: Well, this has been a really good chat for me. I hope you enjoyed yourself too. Erin: I really did. Paul: I hope you don't feel like Erin: I didn't even use the Kleenex! Paul: You didn't. That's cause you're dead inside. Erin: I know. I'll see somebody, I promise. I won't. Paul: Thank you so much, Erin. Is there anything you'd like to plug? Erin: Yeah, come to Harold night. It's, well tonight's too late... Paul: At the UCB Theater if you live in L.A. Erin: Yeah, UCB Theater, Monday nights, my team is Kidgrift. Paul: What time is the show? Erin: It's 8:00 and 9:30 every Monday, so we're in either slot almost every week. Oh, and follow me on Twitter. Paul: OK, what's your tweet? Erin: Paul: , that's right, I knew that. Erin, thank you so much for coming, and being honest and vulnerable. That is something I just really, really respect and love about people. The ones who are willing to be vulnerable and risk something of themselves. We live in such a cynical world, where people think that the key is to protect yourself more and more and just fire from behind that big wall that we build up, and to me, the most enjoyable moments in life are when we walk out from behind that wall and we go, "you know what, I'm just going to see what fucking happens." Erin: And those are the people I end up admiring, and who seem strong. It feels so weak to do, but so strong to watch. Paul: So thank you. Erin: Thank you! If you get a chance, go check out Erin and the rest of her improv troupe, Kidgrift. They're funny, I went and checked them out one night at the UCB, and I had a great time. Before I take us out with another survey respondent, a couple of reminders. If you feel so inclined to support this show, which I really appreciate those of you that have, really really appreciate it. There's a couple of different ways you can do it, you can make a donation via PayPal, we have a little link on our site, you can do it right there. You can buy stuff through our Amazon link, and Amazon gives us a couple of nickels if you do that. You can do that on our site as well. And you can support us non-financially by going to Itunes and giving us a good rating. That really helps boost our rating and helps bring people to the show. Blah, blah, blah. Oh and we have teeshirts for sale, you can buy a teeshirt too, through the website, and I think they look pretty cool. They have that logo that I like, the station wagon with the big bottle of pills strapped like luggage to the top of it. I would like to take things out...oh, since this is our last show of 2011, I want to thank all the people who have made this show possible. Stieg Reeve, for doing the website. John and Michael for helping keep the spammers out, my wife Carla for all of her feedback, Martin Willis for helping me get it off the ground. And all my guests, all forty-one of my fantastic guests, and especially you guys, the listeners. Oh my God, it's funny because this year I've made less money than I have in probably fifteen or twenty years, and it's been the most gratifying year I've ever had creatively, because of this show and your response to it. And it couldn't have come at a more perfect time, as I lost my job on Dinner and a Movie in September. I haven't really looked back since doing this podcast. And if nobody cared for this podcast or gave me any feedback, I probably wouldn't feel that way. So thank you for letting me know that this show means something to you. And I'm going to take it out with a respondent from our Shame and Secrets survey. Her name is Jessie, and she is straight, she's in her twenties, she was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional.
• "Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse?"
She picked the answer "some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts as sexual abuse" • "What are your deepest, darkest, thoughts, not things you would act on but things you are ashamed to admit you think about."
She writes, "I've learned not to be ashamed of thoughts, you don't control your thoughts, only your actions." Paul: I love that answer, because I couldn't agree with it more. • "What are your deepest, darkest secrets. Things you have done or things that have happened to you."
She writes, "I 'let' a dog lick my vagina when I was drunk." Paul: Uhhh, I fucking love the honesty on these survey takers. First of all, I don't judge you. I did a lot of shit that I was embarrassed about when I was drunk. I just wonder right now if the dog is filling out a survey and also checking the box about sexual abuse "some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts as sexual abuse." I just want to end the show on the image of a dog licking someone's vagina. If you're out there and you're stuck, or if you're out of peanut butter, don't give up hope. Thanks for an awesome 2011, and thank you for listening. You are not alone. | 
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