Episode notes:
Visit Dwayne's webpage. Read his blog. Follow him on Twitter.
Episode Transcript:
Paul: Welcome to episode 69, sweet 69, with my guest Dwayne Perkins. I’m Paul Gilmartin. This is The Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive, negative thinking; feelings of dissatisfaction, disconnection, inadequacy; and that vague, sinking feeling that the world is passing us by. You give us an hour; we’ll give you a hot ladle of awkward and icky. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional, mental counseling. It is not a doctor’s office. I, uh, I am not a doctor. It’s more like a waiting room that hopefully doesn’t suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com. That’s also the Twitter name you can follow me at. Um, go check out the website. There’s tons of great stuff there. I’m not gonna bore you by telling you all about it, but, uh, um, you can fill out a survey, and read the forum, and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Um, what did I want to tell you about? Oh, I saw a really cool documentary on HBO about—there’s an artist named Marina, uh, Marina Abramavic. I think that’s how her name is pronounced. And, um, she was doing this, this installation, um, I think it was at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, and one of her pieces was just her sitting on one side of a table and spectators coming and sitting in the other seat and them just making eye contact with each other. And at first I was like, ‘Ohhhh, look at this pretentious piece of shit.’ And then the more I watched it, you could see how—first of all, how incredibly present she was with these people that she was sitting with, and you could see how important it is for people to feel like somebody is paying attention to them and that they matter. Because some of these people started crying. You could just—it was amazing: the wordless communication between her and the public. Um, it completely changed my mind, and it just reminds me how desperately on a, on a genetic level, how much we need to be heard and listened to, and, uh, and understood, and have the feeling that somebody’s not looking at their watch; that they’re there as long as we need them to be. That’s the other thing that I thought was really cool about that installation is that other person could sit in that chair as long as they wanted. And, I think that was what was so touching to these people about that. But, uh—and she did this every day for eight hours a day for three months. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Anyway, check th-that documentary out; I thought it was, uh, I thought it was really cool.
Um, my depression kicked my ass this last week. I’m feeling better now, but oh my God, so fucking sad and listless on a couple of days. Um, I was convinced that somebody was gonna have to invent the bed car for me to get anything done. That would be pretty cool f-for depressive people, maybe we can get, like, a 25% discount off on the bed car. Wouldn’t that be awesome to not even have to get out of bed, just go to the grocery store, you know, go down the aisle, and maybe just kind of lean up a little bit, grab that can of peas. (laughs) That would be sweet.
The other thing that I thought is cool about having depression and being catatonic, is, uh, and this is maybe the only positive, is your portrait would be easy to paint. That’s about it. I’m starting a list on what’s good about having depression and that’s, that’s it, right now.
Um, oh, I’ve got a new survey up, uh, called Struggle in a Sentence. And, basically, what it, what it is, um—I want to try to convey to people that don’t live with depression, addiction, bulimia, um, all the battles we talk about on this show. I want other people to be able to understand more accurately what it is that we experience. And so this survey—you, in a sentence or two, try to describe what your battle feels like. And so I’m gonna read some of the ones, um, about depression th-that people h-have—how they’ve described it.
“Constant sadness.”
“Always in Jell-O, moving slow.”
“Periodic episodes of wanting nothing but to die or vanish.”
“Nauseous and can’t move.”
“Lying in bed under an indomitable pile of sandbags, swimming through sludge.”
“Like everything is just adding to your sadness. Like being awake is a penalty.” Boy, did I relate to that one.
And then, uh, these, these three about, uh, bipolar that I liked, um:
“Feels like a switch has been flipped and I am suddenly 10,000 pounds, unable to move.”
“Bipolar II with rapid cycling: Pretty much a fun fest. Depression feels like I’m empty inside. Mania feels great at first, but soon it feels like the whole world is out to get me and everyone is lying to me. Not fun.”
And my favorite, “I’m bipolar. It’s like running my life as a relay with two completely fucked up teammates.”
[SHOW INTRO]
Paul: I’m here with, uh, with Dwayne Perkins. And Dwayne and I have never really, uh, spent any time together. Our paths have crossed. Uh, he’s a stand-up comedian. We taped our Comedy Central half-hour specials, um, the same night in New York City in ’03. You’re friends with Lisa Kushell—
Dwayne: Yes, yes.
Paul: Who’s one of my best friends. Uh we have a lot of mutual friends, and we’ve heard each other’s names but never actually sat down to talk, so I’m, uh, I’m excited to have you on.
Dwayne: Thank you, thank you. It’s, um, very exciting to be here. Um, you know, I’ve been trying to do podcasts, and when I saw you—when I ran into you at the Coffee Bean, and you were explaining to me what your podcast is and was, you know, um, it was kind of actually good to not have to be funny. (laughs)
Paul: I find it to be so refreshing. To just—because in a lot of ways I think one of the reasons that we do comedy is because we’re afraid to say what it is that we’re really feeling inside and it’s the closest socially acceptable, safe way to express—
Dwayne: Completely, yeah
Paul: What is not resolved within ourselves.
Dwayne: And, um, also to, you know, t-to buffer what you say to others and try to get them to understand something without coming at it directly. And it doesn’t always work. Sometimes you get the laugh, and that’s it and then there’s what you ultimately wanted to convey didn’t quite get conveyed, you know?
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I often found that what I really wanted to say was in the premise of what I was talking about.
Dwayne: Right.
Paul: And the punch line was really just a burden.
Dwayne: Right, exactly, exactly. You see that a lot and I think that’s a big challenge with comedy. And then there’s the punch line that makes them forget the premise. Um, so my comedy comes from the same place. I try to also, what I try to do is have the punch line incorporate a solution. Even—because a solution is funny, because the punch line isn’t funny—even, I think, people don’t understand the solution sometimes. They don’t get that, you know, I might be being a little facetious, but what I’m really saying is this.
Paul: Right. The point, the point is ultimately for us as writers, is the payoff.
Dwayne: Right, right.
Paul: And th-the, you know, the punch line is kind of th-th-the ditch digging to get them to listen to our point, to say, “I want to be heard. Here’s how I feel about this.”
Dwayne: Right, exactly. And that’s, and that’s the difference between, like, uh, watching someone do 45 minutes who is kinda talking about themselves and what they really believe as opposed to watching a one-liner guy. Like, one-liner guys are really, you know, hysterical, but usually, like, unless there’s some sort of through line, I think that 20 to 30 minutes is kind of, like, the max that that can kind of go on.
Paul: Right. It’s like a pop song. There’s no dynamic to it. It just kind of starts at the same beat, it doesn’t necessarily build. There’s no inherent theatricality to it.
Dwayne: Yeah. And that’s why pop songs are all, like, three minutes. Just kind of before you realize you want more, it’s done.
Paul: Right, right. Uh, so, uh, other than your Comedy Central half hour, what, uh, where would people know you from? Touring standup comedian, obviously.
Dwayne: Yeah, definitely touring. And I’ve been on Conan a bunch; um, I don’t know, five times or something like that. So, between that a-and, you know, late, the other one, The Late, Late Show sometimes. Mainly those appearances and then traveling, touring, and, uh, you know, I’m somewhat of a web presence. I write a blog. And my blog is actually an outlet too. Because it’s like—I call it, uh, at the time I thought it was very original, but then I saw that some of the other people had the same, like, I call it, uh, like, Amusing Musings. So …
Paul: So i-it—do you consider jerking off on a webcam a web presence?
Dwayne: (laughs) Not at all, not at all. My, you know, my blog is more like—taps into what I feel about things, and—because it’s the written form and not spoken, there’s no need to have, like, punch, punch, punch. And I think people kinda enjoy it, you know.
Paul: They do, they do. It’s nice being able to stretch out and make a point and not feel that, uh, that kind of pressure to, uh, to have to relieve the tension.
Dwayne: Right, and I think also, like—I don’t know, this sounds crazy—at some point I was thinking about writing a, um, what do you call it, a manifesto, right? But then I thought, “Most people who write manifestos are usually—it comes with a bomb. Like, you know, here’s my manifesto and here’s the bomb.” And I don’t really wanna bomb anything. And then also a manifesto is like, they’ve already written some, like, the Bible, the Koran, the, you know, th-th-the, um, what’s the other one?
Paul: Talmud.
Dwayne: The Talmud, yeah. Buddhist teachings and stuff like that. So, you know, I think, I might still do that. I think might one day say here’s how people should live. But the blog is the next closest thing where something happens, I try to put it in perspective; and, you know, like, uh, my latest one was about hipsters and I was in Portland. And I wrote a blog about hipsters, and, uh, you know, just sort of, like, cuz some people might not know what a hipster is. And hipsters eat really bad, so the blog was about how they eat really bad and yet they’re still very skinny, trying to get to the bottom of that. But, you know, my next blog will be about a lady I met at Starbucks, who’s like fifty, no sixty, excuse me, and gonna get her first computer and her husband told her she was too stupid to learn the computer.
Paul: Wow.
Dwayne: And I think they’re actually getting divorced now.
Paul: That might be a good idea.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah. And just the, like, she was, uh, so triumphant, and, you know, like, just that she was able to talk to me and she’s gonna get a computer and, you know, do all the things that I guess this guy didn’t let her do, who knows for how long. And so, you write a blog about that, it’s hard to bring that to the stage. You know, and get, like, two or three laughs a minute, but you can, you can blog about it, yeah.
Paul: So, uh, you were raised, uh, you’re from Chicago, right?
Dwayne: No, no, no, I’m, uh—people think that because Dwayne Kennedy is from Chicago. And I actually go to Chicago—
Paul: He’s a great, great, great comedian.
Dwayne: He is, he’s incredible. I’m, uh, from New York, Brooklyn, New York. And, uh, born and raised, yeah.
Paul: I don’t know why I thought—do you, do you hang out with a lot of, uh, the Chicago comics?
Dwayne: Well, actually, people normally think I’m from Boston because I did my early comedy i-in Boston. In fact, my cell phone number is still a Boston cell phone number. I lived there for like five or six years. But I’ve actually, actually lived—I’ve lived in LA longer than I lived in Boston, so …
Paul: What, uh, what was the family life like growing up? What kind of environment were you raised in?
Dwayne: Uh, you know, it’s weird, because I feel like, uh, I feel like I have fond memories. I look back on it with fondness. And I think when people interact with me, um, people kind of assume I’m like a Cosby kid for some reason. You know, but …
Paul: Dwayne is African-American.
Dwayne: Yeah, and I always try to, uh, I always try to qualify what I say because I don’t want—I never want to tell some kind of hardships and hard story, you know. So I think it was fine, growing up because I always had a lot of hope. I knew I was gonna be successful at whatever I did. But I grew up, you know, single parent. I knew my dad, but my grandmother mainly raised me because my mother was, uh, fifteen when I was born.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah. So—she’s a great person. My mother’s super-tolerant, super-patient, yeah, but, um, she was fifteen, so when I was five, I went to live with my grandmother. Or six, because, uh, in kindergarten, I missed 60 days of school. (laughs) Yeah.
Paul: F-for what reason? Just because your …
Dwayne: Because me and my mom wouldn’t get up, you know? And, you know, we lived—I lived right across the street from the school. So, I guess that was, you know, my mom’s bad. But she was still—even that, I feel bad saying because that paints her in a way that I don’t think she is, you know?
Paul: One of the things, one of the things that we say on this podcast is w-we’re not here to, you know, try to lay blame, uh, we’re here to just try to sort out our feelings and talk about them in a way that the people listening to the show realize that they’re not alone and that they’re not abnormal, a-and this is just part of being human, and we’re still figuring it out.
Dwayne: Yeah, and that, and that’s exactly what it is. Cuz at that point my father had gone into the Navy and, he, you know, like, I just didn’t think anything was wrong with it. But, yeah, apparently sometimes I would go to school—I guess kindergarten is half days, right—sometimes I would just go to school and my mother wouldn’t, uh, you know, she would still be sleeping, right? And I joke on stage sometimes, I go, “I’d be like, ok, Mom, going to school. And I’m five.” You know, like … so, uh, that was that. So when I went to live with my grandmother, it was, uh, like I’d been out of—I didn’t miss any school. Ever, like, she was pretty much a taskmaster. And my mom is much better now, but she still is very, like, she leans towards taking days off. Like, she’s still a person who—anything, a-a-any excuse to not go to work, she won’t go. That’s just, I don’t know, something about, I think, maybe leaving, she doesn’t, you know, if any of her kids are sick, they can just not go to school. But my grandmother was like, “You go. If you can walk, you go.”
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like, so my childhood was, I don’t know, it was like—I grew up mainly in the ‘80’s and so, it’s normal when you live there. Looking back, it probably wasn’t that normal, because there was, like, drugs, and, you know, violence—I’m from the projects. But I don’t like telling that story because I feel like it’s not—I like telling it, a-a-and I guess I’m still coming to terms with it b-because, you know, there’s such a thing called, like, “survivor’s guilt,” I guess, right? And in a way, like, I can I’m from the projects and I can paint a bad picture, but I just was always very lucky. So, like, really good at school, like, I just—you know, as long as I kept my nose clean, I was gonna be all right.
Paul: D-do you feel any guilt about that fact that you made it out and people that you loved and cared about didn’t? I’m assuming that would—that had to be the case.
Dwayne: Um, yeah, yeah, it is. Except my mother, my mother is mag—there’s something magical about her, cause her kids, knock on wood, are currently all doing well. M-my brother—I mean, my siblings, my siblings are, like, a lot younger than me, so there situation was a lot different. My mother was able to move out of Brooklyn.
Paul: Was—how big was the gap between you and her next kid?
Dwayne: Eleven years.
Paul: Oh, that’s huge.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: So in a lot of ways you were an only child.
Dwayne: Right, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I have a nine-year-old cousin that kind of came around and lived with me as well. But, um, yeah, so my mother and her, you know, like, her kids are like a beacon, like, it’s not really—like my sister runs a daycare, my two sisters run a daycare, my brother’s doing his residency right now, and you know, I’m a comedian. So, yeah, it’s like, complete luck or blessing or something, you know? But yeah, you know, I don’t know if I have guilt—I guess I have a little guilt. But it’s weird. It toggles between guilt and, if I had to be completely honest, which I don’t think I’m always honest, I don’t know if it’s resentment, but I’ve—I do, you know—because I-I can justify almost anything. Like, I don’t—I think sadness for me is, like, you can ration—you can rationalize it away. You can rationalize sadness away, is what I feel. So like, I feel that I’m lucky, but I also feel like maybe if I grew up in a situation that was a little more pleasant, a little less dangerous, I would have exceled more, but maybe not, right, maybe I would have taken things for granted and ended up on drugs. You just never know.
Paul: Y-you don’t ever know, but can you, can you talk about that. You know, let’s say we’re giving Dwayne the freedom to—we know that he’s not a whiner talking about this.
Dwayne: Well, I just think it’s one of those things where, um, I accept my responsibility within my immediate family as, uh, the person who had to break the cycle, um, whatever the cycle is. Cycle of being undereducated, cycle of, uh, uh, any kind of substance abuse, you know.
Paul: Did your mom drop out of school when she got pregnant?
Dwayne: Um, no, she got a GED, I think. So I think she finished that. And, uh, but just sort of, like, It’s weird, you know, like, I read The Fountainhead once, and the character you’re supposed to relate to, I related to. There’s another character who they say, like, came from greatness, uh, but not immediately then he came—he went back to greatness. But he was a little scarred, right? Because my grandmother, she grew up kind of in a—she grew up in Florida and she was a little pampered for a black woman during that time.
Paul: Sh-she was allowed to live. That was being pampered.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She went to, uh, she went to college for a semester or two. So, you know, in a way, we—that’s the path we were on. And then she became pregnant, and with, uh, my uncle and then her life changed, because it wasn’t really something you could just do back then. So then she moved to New York and then, and then flash ahead and we’re in the projects, you know what I mean? And, uh …
Paul: Why do you think it is that so many fifteen-year-old girls, sixteen-year-old girls g-get pregnant? Is it that they—they’re so impulsive that they don’t want to stop to wear a condom? Th-th-the boy talks them into not having a condom? Or they just don’t realize how easy it is to get pregnant?
Dwayne: I think it’s like a combination of all of those things. You know, I think it’s like—I think it’s mainly not having that other thing. You know, like, my mother didn’t know her father.
Paul: Do you think she wanted to have a kid?
Dwayne: I don’t know, but I do know that when my mother was fifteen, like, every girl she knew that was fifteen or sixteen or seventeen, they all had kids. And I don’t know if that was a pact or—I think it’s just like—that’s the thing for me, I just think of decisions have, like generational ramifications, you know? So when my grandmother gave birth to my mother and for whatever reason my mother’s father wasn’t around, that set my mother up to be on the path that she was on, you know. So luckily I think we—hopefully we got it back, we got it on track, I think. But, you know growing up in, you know—
Paul: Dw-Dwayne, by the way, has a reputation as being one of the, uh, nicest most down-to-earth comedians, um, of comedians I know who don’t tell the truth.
Dwayne: (laughs)
Paul: Of comics, he has a, he has a great reputation as a, as a nice guy. Do you, do you ever think to yourself, or is it to painful of a thought to think, “My mom might not have wanted me?”
Dwayne: Wow, that’s a crazy question. All the time. All the time.
Paul: Do ya?
Dwayne: Like, not that she didn’t want me, but that I wasn’t planned.
Paul: I’m a burden, she might fantasize about what her life might be like if she hadn’t had to raise a kid at 15.
Dwayne: Right. She didn’t plan on it. But we talk about that, me and my mother, and um …
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Yeah, because I think that that’s why I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, and, uh, I chose comedy—that’s the one thing that I did I-I-I’m sort of excelling at it, but, in a way, when I was kid, I thought I’d be, like, an engineer or something. And I do have a degree in Computer Science, but I live my life—people in my situation, uh, you know—I life my life to prove I wasn’t a mistake. And so, um …
Paul: That can be m-motivating, I would imagine.
Dwayne: Yeah, definitely, definitely. And you also have, like—for me it wasn’t only being, like, sad, but it was also having a chip on my shoulder, like, I-I always had a chip on my shoulder, like, that I wouldn’t necessarily express to people, but, like, if I was 14 and working at a job, and the owner said something that I didn’t like, I would just go away and say to myself, “I’m gonna come back and buy this place.” You know, that was my—for a while I had a list of places I was gonna buy.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Go back and buy that place, buy that place, buy that place.
Paul: Do you remember any of them?
Dwayne: And fire—well, Toys R Us, for one.
Paul: Yeah?
Dwayne: Yeah. Toys R Us, I was gonna back there, buy it, fire the people, which, obviously they don’t work there anymore, you know what I mean? Um, I was gonna—I worked at a restaurant in Brooklyn that’s not there anymore, called, uh, For Goodness Steak, I was gonna go back to For Goodness Steak and, um …
Paul: Fire everybody or just the guy that was a dick to you, or the woman?
Dwayne: Just, just the people that, yeah, yeah. So, I don’t know where that, where that whole thing came from but I had to have that fight in me because I had—I fight—I fought all the time when I was a kid.
Paul: Now I’m curious – when you have th-that kind of motivation, which in some ways can be good, I would imagine when things don’t work out, the frustration has to feel twice as bad.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah, you’re good, you’re good, Paul. You really know your stuff. You know, as a child, I, uh, yeah, I was—people—they put up with me because I showed some promise. Had I not shown that intellectual promise, I don’t know where I would be right now. Like, like, you know, I’m thankful to all the people who had patience with me because where I’m from you only get that kind of leeway if you have some sort of—you display some sort of ability. You could be a great basketball player, you could be something, and, um, I know I’m sort of setting it up like I’m this super-mind, genius. I don’t think I am, but I—
Paul: For a kid, for a kid that was raised in the projects by a fifteen-year-old, Dwayne.
Dwayne: Schoolwork always came easy. And, you know, and they put up with me, but, I did have a lot of fights. For my vantage point, people were picking on me. And I had to learn how to deal with that. Which now, actually, I think, has crippled me as an adult in many ways, which I, I can explain. But yeah, um, I would get into massive trouble. I would get into such big trouble growing up, like, I mean, like, cursing at teachers, fighting teachers, picking up chairs to throw at them. And so now when I see a child who has a strong will, um, I think people are quick to stamp that out. And I always have compassion for that kid. I want to understand where that will comes from and how that will can be channeled. Cuz I was just fortunate, like, my family—I was the jewel of my immediate family on my mother’s side. So, I would get in trouble for fighting teachers and stuff like that and then they would—I would just tell my side of the story and then everyone would be ok with it. They would be, like, amazing. I don’t think that’s a normal thing.
Paul: So I imagine you learned the power of words and storytelling.
Dwayne: Yeah. Yeah. But I always also would try to tell the truth, because, uh, I felt like to have my mother and grandmother and aunt on my side was such a massive thing that I couldn’t lose that, and I couldn’t, you know. Um, so that, you know, that was great. Now they couldn’t protect me when I was outside hanging, I had to figure out how to do that. And, um …
Paul: Can you give me some examples of guys a-a-and girls that you grew up with where things didn’t end up so well, not necessarily the their whole story, but just to give us a feel for how, how—kind of a list of this person, that person?
Dwayne: Yeah, it’s really weird because I feel like, um with my age, uh, like …
Paul: How old are you?
Dwayne: Um, I’m 41. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.
Paul: You don’t look 41.
Dwayne: Thank you, thank you. Maybe you can edit that out later. But—you can say, “How old are you?” “37.” “You don’t look 37.” Or whatever it is, you know. But I, um, I feel like I’m on the edge. Like, my, like, the edge of whatever good was coming out of the ‘60’s that was bleeding into the ‘70’s, I feel like kids after my era had to deal a little bit more with the crack epidemic than I did. I dealt with it, but, finally, like, maybe high school, you know?
Paul: The gangs, the gangs didn’t have machine guns wh-when you were a kid.
Dwayne: Right, right. New York City didn’t have gangs per se, but we had, like, you know, a drug problem. Like I-I personally know more then 30 people that have been shot. Like, personally.
Paul: Wow.
Dwayne: Like, I could just start writing the names down.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Really.
Paul: How many died?
Dwayne: Um, probably over half of them died, yeah, including my father.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah, he was killed when I was, uh, 19. Yeah, in Brooklyn.
Paul: Was it, uh—
Dwayne: Just a random argument that just exceled, yeah. And so, probably that more than anything kind of pushed me into comedy, I would say. I already loved comedy, but something about the, at that moment the, the thing of, like, choosing your own path because life is short kind of deal. And what does it all mean kind of deal. I think that kind of led me to comedy.
Paul: That makes total sense to me. I was in, I was in college and I was a-a premed student, and a little voice inside my head said, “What if you die of cancer at 30?” You know, “You’re gonna be pissed off that you didn’t get to do anything fun and really tap into that thing inside you.” And so I would imagine when everybody around you is dying left and right, that makes it an easier decision to say, “I’m gonna, I’m gonna follow m-m-my passion.”
Dwayne: Somewhat, somewhat. O-or like maybe, I don’t know.
Paul: Fuck it, I’m just gonna do what everybody else does?
Dwayne: Or maybe you want more ambition, I don’t know, like …
Paul: Did you ever consider just saying, “Fuck it!” and, uh, just falling in with the easy money and dealing drugs and hanging out with the wrong people?
Dwayne: I would have to say no, but, only because I-I-I have a bloated sense of myself. I always thought I would be fine.
Paul: Dwayne, dude, that’s not a bloated sense of self th-th-that’s a healthy confidence a-and that’s, that’s, that’s good.
Dwayne: Well, when I worked at Toys R Us—plus, I didn’t know about—I didn’t know you could be a kingpin, right? Which most people aren’t, but to me, people who sold drugs, they sold drugs, and they just—they still lived in my same neighborhood and they just had, you know, better clothes and a better car. But they still were in the ‘hood and they still had to, like, you know, be careful, watch out for danger and all that stuff. So it was like—in fact, they were now sort of locked into the ‘hood because that’s where they sold the drugs, you know, so …
Paul: And they got used to that money.
Dwayne: Right, right. So, no, I-I had some friends who asked me to sell drugs, too. Like, I only had one or two opportunities, when I was at Toys R Us, actually. Some guys that worked at Toys R Us with me were like, “All right. We sell drugs.”
Paul: Do you want to sell a little, little crack kit?
Dwayne: I think, I think they sold coke, not crack, I don’t know, such a stupid distinction, but I think that’s what they were—I think they went into the coke game. And they probably had to go up, up to Harlem to buy the coke, come back and sell the coke. But realistically, there’s not even that much money in that, really. Not enough to, you know what I mean. And, uh, but to answer your question before, like, it’s weird because I-I think—I do feel like crack stopped the black community’s momentum in such a massive way, because, like, like I know people who, like, I know many, many people who got killed, shot, did drugs, jail, all of that. But also, two kids from my class, my sixth grade class, where I was in school from first to sixth grade, they went to Stanford. Two of them, from—like, my school in Brooklyn, in my district, we would always score last on, like, those standardized tests but me, and these—and like a handful of people, we would always do really well.
Paul: Did you guys hang around each other? W-was that one of the keys?
Dwayne: Um, a little bit. Back then, they didn’t have, like, everybody in one class. At least in New York they didn’t. They had, like, they had figure out “These kids are a little bit faster, we’re gonna put them all in one class. And then those kids are not quite as fast, they’re gonna be in the second class, these kids will be …” And, um, something about that I know probably wrecks the self-esteem of the people that are in class 2-3 or 2-4, but, at the same time, you don’t hold back the kids that are in 2-1, you know? So there was that element. Also, a lot of kids I grew up with, where I’m from there’s really, um, Coney Island, we’re like the best basketball neighborhood in the city. None of, none of my work, but, um. (laughs) And so I know, I know, you know, of, uh—one in a handful of kids went to a Division 1 schools and got scholarships. Stephon Marbury’s from my neighborhood, he played pro.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: The neighborhood has produced two or three NBA players. It’s a tiny, tiny, small neighborhood.
Paul: Do you remember him playing, uh?
Dwayne: Oh definitely. He’s a little younger than me but I remember him playing, knowing him. We lived in, uh, the same projects.
Paul: And then did you—when you saw him, uh, say, as a ten- or twelve-year-old, uh—
Dwayne: Amazing.
Paul: Amazing.
Dwayne: I saw him younger than that. I saw him when he was like, let me see, he was in third grade, I think at the time, was when I think I first met him. And he shot a ball from, like, so far away, like, beyond NBA range. And he could barely pick the ball up and he just threw it. It looked like there was no form. He just threw it and it went right in. And everyone just went crazy. And they gave him the ball again, he did it again. They gave him the ball again, he did it again. Th-that’s muscle memory.
Paul: Wow.
Dwayne: So he just, once that first one went in, he was able to do it twice in a row, and he was like eight or something.
Paul: And I imagine once he got that feedback he wanted more of that.
Dwayne: And that’s all it is. And that’s why I think I was—didn’t ever sell drugs because at some point someone told me I was smart and then I was like, “Oh, I’m smart. I’m gonna go that way.” Or I proved that I was smart or I displayed that I was smart or something, you know. So, my life seemed like it was really easy, but on the other hand, you know, like, I, like, all my fighting was before high school. By the time I got into high school, I-I—
Paul: Did you get into a lot of fights?
Dwayne: Yeah, like before that a lot. Like, just school, just, you know, random stuff. And I always had that strong will. My last—I’ve had fights since then, but I once hit a kid in the face with a can of soda, I tell this story, a can of—
Paul: Regular or diet?
Dwayne: Countrytime lemonade, actually. I remember. I hit him in the face with it – a full can. And I got into trouble, and, uh, I remember that was like, I was in fifth grade, it was an intervention of sorts. I’m in the principal’s office with the principal, uh, either my mother or my grandmother, maybe they both were there, and my first grade teacher was there too. And they were all just sorta like, looking at me, asking what I was gonna do, like, “What are you gonna do?” And that was, uh, that was a pivotal moment for me, to, like, learn how to control my temper. But what I, what I didn’t realize until way later, until I was maybe 30, is that I never really learned how to control my temper. When they sat down with me that day and they—what I did was I learned how to rationalize things and not get mad, which is good. But, but I didn’t learn how to handle myself when I’m mad. So basically if I drew a circle of the things that make me mad, it’s like—back then it was a pretty big circle. Now, the circle is really small. But, if something happens to me that is within that circle, the anger can be equal to what it was because I didn’t deal with that element of it.
Paul: I’m sure you know what my next question is.
Dwayne: What kind of things?
Paul: What’s in the circle?
Dwayne: Um, certain forms of being dismissed. You know, which (indistinct) happens to the whole life thing itself, but when people dismiss me, um, and you know, when they do it in a way that’s kind of dismissive of, but, uh, that can definitely set me off, yeah. And people lying on me—lying about me, that was well, yeah.
Paul: You know, a-any kid that, uh, was abandoned by a parent, uh, how could you not, how could you not have that of a primal, uh, wound there that gets r-retriggered?
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah, and, you know, I didn’t even, as a kid, I didn’t feel that way, like I was abandoned. I didn’t deal with those things. Um, there certainly was, like—cuz I saw my mother a lot, she would—she either lived with us or would come visit a lot. And then, uh, you know, I get along with my stepfather, they’ve been together a long time. Um but I would just have, like—I remember I was so lucky, I remember one night, it’s really fuzzy, but I know that whatever happened, he was arguing with my mother and, uh, I was gonna stab him in his sleep. And, um …
Paul: How old were you?
Dwayne: 9 or 10 or something like that. It would—cuz they—shortly after my father went into the Navy they got together. Definitely I think not older than 10. Maybe 11 but I don’t think so, I think younger than that. And, um, so I got a steak knife—I know this is crazy, right? Got a steak knife, put it under—cuz I got a—he had a studio apartment, my mother stayed there and I would spend nights there on the couch. They don’t know this, and I don’t tell them this, by the way. So I put the knife under the couch cushion, and I’m like, “Ok. When he goes to sleep, I’m gonna stab him.” And I just fell asleep and I woke up the next day, and I was kind of like—first angry that I didn’t do it, then kind of happy that I fell asleep, then never spoke of it, put the knife away. That’s a crazy story.
Paul: Do you think there’s a lesson in there for little Dwayne that if you wait a little bit of time, that feeling passes, that that feeling’s not gonna be with you for the rest of your life.
Dwayne: Yeah, definitely, I think that was the lesson. And also, like, a blessing, like, I’m just glad I didn’t do it, you know. (laughs) And he had his issues and stuff but it’s just like, I mean, like, my brothers and sisters might not have been born, it was just, I don’t know. Just not cool.
Paul: At the very least, stabbing someone’s inconvenient.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And that’s the thing, I think as an adult, I have to deal with whatever hurt that is that I’ve had just so that I can move on. Like, sometimes I feel like, you know, like, I expect a certain level of excellence from myself. And sometimes when I don’t reach it, I know that if I had to be 100% honest, there is a little bit, like—like, if I’m not neat for instance, my place is a little bit messy, then I go, you know, “My place is messy because I never had my own bedroom.” And I have to let that go and be like, “You never had your own bedroom growing up. So what, you have it now, and just catch up. Catch up to everybody else, and learn, and know how to fix it up.” Which I think—it’s like a double talk where I try to act like it had no effect on me but then I know that sometimes it did have an effect on me. But my mother has apologized and she’s great. And I’ve said some horrible things to her too, so.
Paul: What are some of the things you’ve said to your mom?
Dwayne: Well the one thing I said to her that was really bad—cause she’s dealt with—she’s never had, uh, a substance abuse problem, alcohol problem. She used to drink but she stopped when she was pregnant with my brother, pretty much doesn’t drink anymore. She doesn’t smoke. She used to smoke when she was a kid. She has—she’s never had a problem, she’s dealt with it with friends and with men she’s dated and stuff like that, so she was always so anti-drugs. Which was like—the thing is, what she’s done is set me up to be able to be who I am now to be a person who can deal with chaos, sometimes too much, maybe not her exclusively, my whole situation. And sometimes I deal with—I think I have too much tolerance and I’m not, there’s some—my dealings with people, I need to kind of nip it in the bud sooner and I just don’t know how to do that sometimes. But, um, she would always be like, “Don’t do drugs. Don’t do drugs. Don’t do drugs.” And she had experienced first-hand, from not a user, but from a person who deals with a user, th-the, you know, th-the effects. And I’ve dealt with the effects too. I’ve known, my father was, you know, probably an alcoholic, and I’ve dealt with it. And so, anyway, um, a-always, she was always looking, making sure, but it was like, we would—w-we shared that belief. And I told her that many times. So it was like—
Paul: I’m not into drugs, you don’t need to worry.
Dwayne: Or alcohol or anything, right? But you know, I guess she just wants to be a good mom, and this is my mother not my grandmother, right? And so, uh, finally, one day she was saying that and I said to her, I said, “Mom, I’m not a follower like you.” And uh, she still brings that up, and, uh, because I know that my mother always says, “But by the grace of God, there go I.” So, I’m not a drug user, but I could be, so I feel bad that I said that to my mother because I don’t—I believe when you go on record saying something, you basically challenge God or the universe and the opposite is more likely to happen. I don’t like going on record because I tell people if something happens to me, I want—if I do something, I want people to be surprised, but not shocked. You know, so, um, so I think that’s really bad to say that to my mother, that—to say she’s a follower.
Paul: I think in the history of shit that’s been said to moms, that’s gotta be as close to the bottom, uh, of …
Dwayne: But it hurt her, she still brings it up, you know, so.
Paul: Does she?
Dwayne: Yeah. Um, well because, you know, when she—she’s only 15 years older than me, so, like, not that I had a concept of that growing up, but I remember, like, being places with her and telling her not to do things or like, she plays numbers a lot. Now she plays it legal, the legal lotto, but before that, there was the illegal numbers and you had to go, like, to a bodega and you had to go in the back and play and I’d always tell her, “Mom, why are you doing this, this makes no sense, you’re wasting your money. First of all, you don’t even see the numbers. They just tell you what the number is.” This is before they had the big ball.
Paul: Right. (laughs)
Dwayne: You don’t—and I tell her, “There are only nine digits, you know, it’s always gonna—you’re always gonna seem like you’re close but you’re not gonna be close. You’re wasting money.” That, or if I saw her dealing with people that I didn’t think were showing her respect, I would get livid and I would be like, “Don’t kiss their butt. Don’t this, don’t that.” Like, I always had, like, off the charts, um, you know, defiance. Which, now that I’m getting older, I know that I get that from my father, but also from her, like, I think she, she raises her children in a way that lets them challenge and question, at least the boys, not the girls as much, but …
Paul: Do you think that’s because she’s female?
Dwayne: Maybe, and I think just, yeah I think that is it, right? I think women have more—maybe more compassion towards their sons and fathers have more compassion towards their daughters.
Paul: A-a-and plus they probably know how to see through their daughters’ bullshit because th-they did the same bullshit.
Dwayne: Exactly, right. But my brother’s more persistent than me. You know, he has a different father. And growing up I would just see him. She would say, “No.” And he would just keep asking and keep asking. And I was like that too, like—I watched my mother give me a sip of beer when I was like six, just cuz I was thirsty and I just wouldn’t stop asking her. That’s, you know—a-and but she’s so patient. Like, I would antagonize her sometimes and she wouldn’t hit me. Or if she did, it wouldn’t hurt. Like, she’d hit me like a girl, with this little hand, and I would just laugh at her while she was hitting me kind of thing. I regret that. Like, you know, you shouldn’t antagonize your mom, but, you know.
Paul: I-if God forbid, uh, you know, you only had one more day with your mom, what would you say to her?
Dwayne: Oh, man, you know, I would thank her and I, I would also, I don’t know, not to open up a wound, but she’s never told me about her father, like, what, you know, how she felt about that. You know, I think she just, maybe from an era where people kind of didn’t process things as much. And I know she maybe met him once or twice, but I just want to know how that shaped her. Because I think, for me, I don’t think about it much, but …
Paul: Did you see your dad more than she saw her dad?
Dwayne: Oh, completely, yeah, yeah. I knew my father very well. Until, you know, until he died. So, I just, I don’t know—maybe you can’t miss what you never had. It could a case of that. Or it could be, like, you know, cuz I just wanna know how her upbringing impacted her, because I realize now my mother’s way smarter than I once gave her credit for. Because I just thought it was like cut and dry – my intelligence is from my father, sense of humor from my mother, because my mother’s very funny as well. And now I realize that some of it, to be fair, I probably got a lot of my intelligence from her as well. So I just, you know, just want to know what it was like for her growing up.
Paul: W-w-why do you think you haven’t asked her yet? Just that it would feel too uncomfortable?
Dwayne: Yeah, I don’t know, that’s a good question. I don’t—whenever I see her, it just doesn’t come up, and, um, I guess, to me, it’s like she’s more preoccupied now with her kids and her current life. Do you understand?
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dwayne: But like, really, the past has so many of the answers, you know? And like, like my grandmother lived a good life, but even then she was an orphan. She was, um, not raised by her mother. She was raised by this family in Florida who loved her until she, you know, became pregnant and then she was sort of ostracized. My grandmother’s real mother was a singer. And she was in movies in the ‘20’s and ‘30’s or something like that and she, uh, I think she once sang at Radio City Music Hall. You know, so it goes back that—whatever this thing is—it goes back that far, you know? And so, really, we think about, like, my grandmother’s mother’s decisions and how they impacted my grandmother, and how those—my grandmother’s decisions impacted my mother, my mother’s decisions impacted me. It’s just, it’s kind of crazy.
Paul: What, uh, what thoughts do you have on, uh, race, and being African-American today, uh, th-that most white people don’t know?
Dwayne: Um ….
Paul: Things that, things that you have to, uh, deal with, or ways that you feel about things, or things maybe you appreciate more, not necessarily bad things, but things that you think to yourself, somebody who’s not, uh, black doesn’t realize that I experience this? I probably should have asked you this in advance.
Dwayne: No, no, no, it’s fine. There’s a bunch of stuff actually, like, the one thing is that, like , minus the violence, minus the violence, you know, and I’m sure not all black neighborhoods are violent, but minus the violence, like, I think the ‘hood where I grew up was a great place. There was a lot of love, a lot of people supporting each other, but the violence and, like, you can argue that the violence comes from people not having enough money but I think it also comes from people being—not having the defiance that I had as a kid. People feeling like they’re second-class citizens, and that causes some sort of internal upheaval and then they lash out against each other, so, um, I would say more that black neighborhoods are great, you know, if there’s enough—and I think the money is a distraction. I think there’s enough money. Because I think—you know, I talk about third world countries for the most part, you’re talking about—like, I grew up, I had a VCR, I had a computer when I was in seventh grade. But I still had to work like in a shop, you know.
Paul: I wonder sometimes, I think about the violence and I wonder, you know how we pass stuff on from generation to generation if we don’t make a conscious decision to stop the cycle, and, um, especially, like in my family? Things that I do my dad did, he did them to me, his father did them to me, and I wonder sometimes if the violence i-in black neighborhoods isn’t a result of the violence being inflicted upon the black race so long ago that just by natural instinct, human beings are going to inflict that darkness, that …
Dwayne: Yeah, I think—
Paul: That was put into them by somebody else.
Dwayne: I think that’s big part of it. But I also think that it’s—
Paul: And I’m not excusing it.
Dwayne: No, no, no. Right, right, right. I agree. I think it’s a big part of it. I wouldn’t excuse it either, but I think it’s like also, I think violence is like, uh—it’s sort of like, say, a figment of your imagination, because I think, like you hear a rapper will say, like, “I didn’t have anything growing up.” And I’ve been to Africa and, you know, like, not all of Africa, but I’ve been to parts of Africa where they’re like, you know, dislocated people in Burundi, who come from Rwanda, and they actually have nothing. And they’re not violent.
Paul: In a refugee camp.
Dwayne: Right, right. And I think, I think the concept of nothing, sometimes when you say you have nothing, what you really mean is, you know, you don’t mean “I don’t have material things,” you—what you mean is, “I don’t have status.” And then because you don’t have status you act out. And I think that status isn’t promised to you, you just have to sort of like, I think everything starts with respect a-and for others, compassion, and then you build on to that, you know. And I think, you know, yeah, there’s a lot of reasons that violence happens, but, that’s the one thing I think as, uh, for me, I’m always sort of like shown—put in a position to define myself because, uh, people don’t know where I’m from, like, they don’t think I’m from, like, um—they may think I’m from a-a house, like I’ve never lived in a house. You know, never. Or they might think like I’m, uh, I don’t know, like I said, a Cosby kid. And it shouldn’t matter, right? And it shouldn’t. And that’s the thing for the—that’s the challenge for black people. It’s like, to find a way to self-define, because we’re not self-defined. And I think that’s the issue, where, like, uh …
Paul: Do you think you’re defined by the media’s portrayal of you? How you portray yourselves in your culture and music?
Dwayne: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. Yeah, there’s a lot of that. And there’s a lot of, like, not only are we self-defined, but then we don’t, like, appreciate all th-th-the myriad of options and ways we can be and all of that. And so I find myself, like, uh, like having—sometimes white people tell me I’m not black enough. Which is kinda weird. There’s sometimes black people telling me I’m not black enough. Which is extra kinda weird. And then sometimes they—
Paul: Doesn’t that piss you off?
Dwayne: Sometimes. They usually will back off. I’m from Brooklyn, I’m from the projects, I’m from this, I’m from that. And now it’s like who had the toughest time gets to be right kind of thing. And uh…
Paul: Black for a day?
Dwayne: Right, right. But you know, I know where that comes from, because it’s not like, you know—if you’re a rich, a rich black person who grew up in Beverly Hills, that’s fine, but then as you travel the country, people can look at you and tell you’re a rich black person that grew up in Beverly Hills, so you have to deal with, you know, some of the same issues and, uh, racism perhaps that someone who is from the streets would. So in a way we have no choice but to rely on each other a-and but I think we have to find a way to treat each other better, and not have disdain for someone who’s like, uh, you know, lived it different. But I think—I don’t know, I don’t know what’s the solution to that. It’s like, it’s gonna take time I suppose because, uh—one thing I learned from being in the business is that people are affected way more than they know: by music, by images. You like to think that, “Oh, it’s nothing.” But it’s actually something. It’s weird, you know.
Paul: Yeah, your brain, it absorbs all that stuff and all that emotion and all that subconscious stuff. It really, it really does.
Dwayne: Exactly, so for me, like I try to just say I know I’m black and I love being black. I go to Africa to have fun, but on another level I just—
Paul: How many times have you been?
Dwayne: A bunch. I’ve been to South Africa like five times. That’s really where I have friends and stuff. But I’ve been other parts, too, I’ve been to Tanzania.
Paul: Do you, do you feel, uh, I hope this doesn’t sound cheesy, but do you feel a spiritual connection when you’re there?
Dwayne: Funny you should ask. Um, I do, I do, absolutely. Because I think that, uh, like, you know, when I go to Africa, I’m always—I’m obsessed with one question, right? And the question is: what was worse, slavery or, uh, colonialism? And, uh, I don’t know the answer yet, I’m still working that out. But I do think that—
Paul: It was on Jeopardy!
Dwayne: In a way I would say slavery, because, um, something about language and—I find that most African countries, the people have maintained at least some semblance of their own language, I think that helps, helps a lot, you know. And I do feel a spiritual connection because, um—people don’t believe me, this is a crazy story. But, my grandmother, um, I called her Gogo growing up. That was one of the—everyone called her that. And, uh, when I asked her, when she was still alive, why do we call you Gogo, her answer to me was because—she said I gave her that name.
Paul: Really?
Dwayne: But I don’t remember giving her that name. So I guess when I was like, just learning how to talk, I started calling her Gogo. And, um, her name was Gloria, so was I trying to say Gloria? Was I trying to say Grandma? Whatever, it became Gogo and it stuck, right? All my life, called her Gogo. And then when I go to Africa, what I find is that, um, in, like most of, like, central and southern Africa, Gogo is a direct translation for grandmother. Which I didn’t know that. We didn’t know that at all.
Paul: Did that blow your mind when you heard that?
Dwayne: Oh it did cuz when I—I have a joke about it, and when I would be like “Oh,” someone told me eventually—I was like, “Oh, we called my grandmother Gogo,” and they’d be like, “Aww…” They thought I was sort of like pandering to them in a way. So, no, it was a real thing, yeah. And, um, so I don’t know if it’s something about just the human palette that, I don’t know, it’s just kind of weird.
Paul: Yeah
Dwayne: And so, um, yeah dude, I felt, I felt a connection. I feel like i-it’s really the same connection I have with people here except there’s something about there—they have like a lot of random violence, you know. But I think it’s like less people percentage wise are violent that here, you know. Cuz, you know, I don’t know, it’s weird. I’m gonna keep contradicting myself cuz in a way they have less bravado but in a way they have more bravado because I find men in all other countries to be more misogynistic th-th-than American men.
Paul: I-i-it’s endlessly fascinating comparing, um, developing countries to, uh, first world countries. Like a listener sent me an email – is depression is prevalent in developing countries where they’re more focused on their day-to-day survival? And so I passed that question along to a-a-a woman who’s a-a-a doctor—therapist, and she said actually no, depression isn’t—i-it exists, but because people are so preoccupied with their day-to-day survival, it’s kind of pushed into the background.
Dwayne: Not diagnosed as much, something. Yeah, I can see that. So you know, and that’s the thing—I think with people in this country. There are poor people here, there are people who live below the poverty line, but there’s a lot of people that sing a sad, sad tale when it’s like, you know, all I had to eat was soup, or something like that. It’s like all right, that’s something! You had soup, what do you want me to do, you know?
Paul: Uh, what are some common negative thoughts that you, uh, that you think towards yourself?
Dwayne: Uh, sometimes I think like, um, I may not be big time, you know? Like uh …
Paul: Right now or in the future?
Dwayne: Now and in the future, like, like I’m good, but I may not have what it takes to be big time, whatever that means, so …
Paul: Can you , can you look back to when you first started and see yourself and your Comedy Central half hour special and appreciate that growth, or do you just go, “Man.” Because we never do that.
Dwayne: Right, that’s true. But I do, I do appreciate that. A-and ….
Paul: Remember when you were dying to headline? You were dying to be the feature act instead of the opener.
Dwayne: Right, exactly, exactly. You know, I do. And I guess for me it’s like, ok, either I have to be big time or not be big time but at least have—not at least, but not be big time but have a life, have a family, which I don’t have those things yet. You know, sometimes I think I won’t get anything, you know, I’ll have a nice career but in search of that career, kind of get my, you know—and I don’t even know if that life is for me, but give up family and that kind of, that kind of stuff, yeah.
Paul: Well maybe this would be a good place to segue into a, uh, fear-off.
Dwayne: Ok
Paul: You got your fears?
Dwayne: I do, yeah, I just gotta list them right?
Paul: Yeah, yeah, w-we’ll trade them, and, uh, I-I’m gonna be doing my own fears instead of, uh, the listeners’, unless your list is so long I gotta go to listeners’.
Dwayne: Ok
Paul: Um, you wanna start?
Dwayne: Yes, uh, I don’t know if I wrote the right word here. I’m afraid of losing my temper in a way that may be irreparable.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid that my sexuality has been permanently damaged by my mother.
Dwayne: Wow. I’m afraid of being with the wrong person.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I think I’m more honest than I am.
Dwayne: Interesting. I’m afraid of letting the right person slip between my fingers.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I will say or do something that will cause people to stop listening to the show.
Dwayne: I’m afraid of, uh, unrequited love.
Paul: I’m afraid I will forever use tech gadgets to distract myself, uh, and avoid responsibility
Dwayne: That’s a good one. You have some good ones. I’m afraid of being deceived on a major level by a loved one.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I’m a bad person for eating meat.
Dwayne: I’m afraid of random violence.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I kid myself about the extent of my isolating.
Dwayne: Uh, I’m afraid the world will fail.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I think I will reveal something on the show or the website that I will deeply regret.
Dwayne: I’m afraid mankind has peaked.
Paul: Wow that’s deep, that’s deep. Uh, I think about that one too. Uh, I’m afraid that I don’t really care about people, that I just use them.
Dwayne: Oh wow. I’m afraid of horror films.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I will never get over the feeling of wanting to be rescued by maternal love.
Dwayne: I’m afraid, uh, I will be relegated to helping non-peers and never fully placed with—amongst my peers.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid I see myself as too much of a victim because I’m self-centered.
Dwayne: I’m afraid that I’m overwhelmed and don’t even know it.
Paul: Uh, I’m afraid, um, oh, that’s it, that’s it for my, uh, f-for my fears. You wanna, you wanna go—just keep going?
Dwayne: I’m afraid that it all hasn’t been worth the sacrifice?
I’m afraid that I’ll, uh, that if I, uh, of (indistinct)
I’m afraid that I’ll one day lose my love for small things, because if I lose that then I will be in a real bad way, if I don’t appreciate the little things.
I’m afraid that doing the right thing is just a scam for people to get over on you and relegate me to the small time.
I’m afraid that I’m not as good as I think I am.
I’m afraid that, uh, even if I find love, that person deep down will never fully be selfless with me or display true unconditional love. (With that said, I believe unconditional love should be earned. Meaning, it should be based on who you are and not necessarily what you do. With that said, what you do over time is based on who you are.)
And I’m afraid, uh—it may be funny given what I’ve just written—but I’m afraid that I might lose perspective.
Paul: Those are great, man.
Dwayne: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: Those are great. You know, do you think you can ever get that one about the unconditional love, do you think you will ever be able to, uh, share that with a woman at some point in dating her?
Dwayne: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. I just think that I have to readjust myself to not think that certain ways that people contradict themselves mean that they don’t love you unconditionally. Like, I think I’m a little too, like, uh, cut and dry, or like, like, like I-I-I—as a comic, I kind of like see contradictions really easily. And sometimes I think I pounce on them in a way that’s maybe just a little too reactive. Oh, you know, this person just contradicted themselves. They don’t care! You know, so …
Paul: I-I think if you said that to a woman you were dating you could get some serious pussy.
Dwayne: Right, right, I’ll give it a shot.
Paul: I like to lighten it up every once in a while. I get so fucking serious, uh, on this show sometimes. I forget, oh, yeah, sometimes I’m funny. Uh, but this stuff is really important to me.
Dwayne: It’s good, yeah.
Paul: This is the stuff I’ve wanted to talk about m-m-my whole life.
Dwayne: I couldn’t believe, cuz I wrote those fears in a vacuum, just like yesterday or whatever. And it actually linked up to what we talked about in a way that I didn’t plan and I didn’t even know.
Paul: It’s amazing with the power of—and I just had an email—listener email me about this. He teaches a, uh, course or seminar about the power of writing and getting your thoughts on paper. And not only the clarifying effect of it but the healing effect of getting those thoughts, and especially those shames out. Anybody listening who has never gone to the website and taken the Shame and Secrets survey, you can do it anonymously. Go to the website, it’s mentalpod.com, and, um, it’s amazing, some of the shames and secrets that people get off their chests on the website.
Dwayne: Right.
Paul: It’s amazing. I usually read one at the beginning and at the end of the show, but I’ve actually snuck some of mine in there under a fake name.
Dwayne: A pseudonym, right?
Paul: All right, time for a-a-a-a love-off. Um, you wanna start?
Dwayne: Ok. I don’t have as many loves. Um, I love when I have more things on my agenda than time to do them but somehow it all works out.
Paul: Uh, I love feeling a part of society sitting at an outdoor café.
Dwayne: I love driving when the temp in the car—the temperature in the car is good, and traffic is moving, because I tend to come up with ideas.
Paul: Uh, I like when I get to the head of the line to order food.
Dwayne: I like when I say a riff onstage that’s a gem and a keeper.
Paul: Dude, that’s the greatest feeling, th-that is a spiritual feeling.
Dwayne: Yeah, cuz it’s true inspiration.
Paul: And it’s, and it’s coming through you, like you’re just not getting in the way. You’re just being relaxed enough to let something in the universe flow through you.
Dwayne: Exactly, exactly.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I love when a stranger says, “thank you” and I know that the truly mean it.
Dwayne: Nice. I love fair people.
Paul: I love when I’m able to articulate to someone just how much they mean to me.
Dwayne: I love music.
Paul: Uh, I love when I feel the universe is sending me love and it’s not accidental.
Dwayne: I love waterfalls, but man made ones, like little fountains that you buy from CVS and stuff like that. Not like, the other ones are good too—
Paul: That’s interesting – that you like the man made ones more th-than the natural ones.
Dwayne: I literally like the cool ones you can plug in while you’re reading.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I love when a friend cries with me.
Dwayne: We’re getting out—this is when I was kind of reaching—I love pretzels. I really do.
Paul: You do sound like you’re maybe reaching the bottom of the pretzel barrel. Um, but that’s good, it’s all good. I love when my dogs clean each other.
Dwayne: I love ginger ale.
Paul: Uh, I love the feeling of freedom and excitement, uh, skinny-dipping.
Dwayne: I love reading fiction that explains life better than any non-fiction book can.
Paul: That’s a good one. I like that one a lot. Y-you raised yourself back up from the bottom of the pretzel barrel. I love the cowbell in the song Honky Tonk Women.
Dwayne: Oh nice. I love my family.
Paul: Uh, I love how I felt the first time I saw Michael Jackson moon walk.
Dwayne: Oh wow. I love making people laugh.
Paul: Uh, I love melancholy that I understood when I played the Beatles’ Revolver at eight years old, and the feeling I still get, uh, whenever I hear it.
Dwayne: Wow that’s beautiful. I love working on a set, any set, filming things.
Paul: Uh, I love the comfort and optimism of the Creedence Clearwater song Looking Out My Back Door.
Dwayne: And I love collaborating with friends.
Paul: Uh, I love the feeling of being emotionally naked in a support group and knowing it’s completely safe, healthy and healing.
Dwayne: Uh, I love working out and pushing myself to the max, but just, n-not where I’m dead, but just where I feel exhilarated and where I got something done.
Paul: That’s an amazing feeling. See if you can think of another one while I read this one. Uh, I love when support group friends text or call me after I spill my guts out and I’m reminded that people really do care and I really do matter.
Dwayne: Nice. I love—this is crazy. I love taking really long flights, more than ten hours, and just vegging out, catching up on movies I haven’t seen, um, reading, listening to music I haven’t heard, that’s when I do all of that. That 12-hour flight where I watch three movies.
Paul: I get that. Especially if the seat’s comfort—if it, if it’s—you can recline, if you can lay flat a-and even sleep, I totally get that. It’s almost womb-like cuz it’s like you have no responsibility, you’re just—
Dwayne: Yeah, you can’t go anywhere.
Paul: You’re not going to be paralyzed by, uh, the multitude of options of what you can do. Cuz sometimes I-I feel like I’m not gonna choose the perfect thing to do. And then I shut down because I’m afraid of making a mistake, of wasting my time. Well then I’m gonna waste my time! I’m gonna choose to waste my time! Instead of the universe tricking me into wasting my time.
Dwayne: That’s crazy.
Paul: Uh, I love the feeling of sticking up for myself.
Dwayne: I love to have, uh, people read my words, if I’ve written something. See it acted out.
Paul: Uh, I love, uh, picking up food for my wife and feeling like I’m a good husband.
Dwayne: (laughs) Actually, uh, like being a protector/nurturer as well, you know.
Paul: Uh, I love the back of a woman’s neck when her hair is up.
Dwayne: I love, um that, uh, in my family I’m like one of the elders, and amongst my siblings and they come to me with questions and ask advice. But I also love that at times I can transition that now to my younger brother and he’s stepping—he can step into the lead of family meetings and stuff like that.
Paul: That’s awesome. Um, uh, I love when I woman thinks she’s dressed like a slob but she actually looks really hot and, uh, real.
Dwayne: That is a good one. Well in that case, I love sundresses.
Paul: I love sundresses too. Um, uh, I love that my wife doesn’t wear makeup.
Dwayne: Nice, nice. And, uh, I don’t know if I have any more loves.
Paul: I only have two.
Dwayne: Uh, I love taking, um, long road trips with someone who gets it.
Paul: Yeah, yes! I totally get that. That is, uh, that is really great time together. That—yeah, you really feel close to that person and you feel like, um, the universe isn’t passing you by, like this is a moment in your life that is supposed to happen. Um, I love, uh, when the car, uh, before me leaves time on the meter.
Dwayne: That’s a good one. I think that’s the one, that’s great!
Paul: And then my last one is I love correctly guessing which line is moving faster.
Dwayne: Oh, that is good.
Paul: That’s good, getting the right one.
Dwayne: In fact, when I go sometimes to the movies, if I go with someone, I make them wait in a different line. And sometimes they make a rookie mistake and they want to get back over because my line is close, and I’m like, “No, no, no, no.”
Paul: You don’t know
Dwayne: This person ahead of me, there’s only person ahead of me. They might put a coupon, a check, call the manager. You don’t switch back until you’re there, ready to order.
Paul: That’s right. That is right. Well, uh, Dwayne, i-is there anything you want to plug, your website, uh, Twitter? Uh, I’ll post this stuff on th-the website with your episode, but in case people don’t go to the website, um, what would you like to plug?
Dwayne: Yeah. I think, um, in terms of what we’re talking about, I think my blog, people would really get into it. It has some sort of therapeutic kind of elements to it, and that’s uh—
Paul: We can repost it on our—on my site too.
Dwayne: dwayneperkins.com/blog or they can go to averyfunnyblog.com.
Paul: And Dwayne is spelled D-W-A-Y-N-E.
Dwayne: Yes
Paul: Um, thank you so much for uh, for coming on a-a-and opening up and I’m, I’m glad we got to know each other a little bit.
Dwayne: Absolutely. Thank you, Paul, good times.
Paul: Many thanks to, uh, to Dwayne Perkins and, uh, like he said, you can check him out at averyfunnyblog.com. That’s where you can, uh, read his blog. Duh. You can also go to his website, dwayneperkins.com and you can follow him on Twitter @funnydp.
Um, before we—I have three surveys that I’d like t-to read, uh, I believe they’re all from our Shame and Secrets, yeah. All from the Shame and Secrets survey. Um, but before I do that, um, a couple of announcements to make. Our Podcast Box, that’s our iPhone app, uh, that costs $2.99, uh, I got my first report of how many we have sold and I’m proud to say that in two weeks we sold two so that means I get a third of each of those $2.99’s. I made $2 in the last week. I don’t, I don’t want to lord that over you but I just like, I just like you to know a little bit of success is coming my way.
Uh, be sure to visit the website mentalpod.com. Um, I want to thank our audio collection team: Debbie, Megan, Tim, uh, and Zach and it’s headed up by Matt who is currently kicking my ass at Words with Friends. Uh, I’d like to thank our transcribing team, Jennifer, Angela and Angela, and a special shout out to Angela L., uh, going through some health stuff right now, and uh, our thoughts and love, uh, right with ya. And, uh, other people on the transcribing team: Christian, Sean, Hannah, Juanie, Sheri, Nate, Wendy, Amy, and Alexis. Thanks to all you guys and of course the guys in the forum helping to keep the spammers out: John, Michael, Manny and Dan.
A couple of different ways that you can support this show, uh financially: you can go to our website and make a PayPal donation, either a one-time or a monthly, recurring monthly, which, uh, makes me extremely happy, gets me closer to my goal of being able to do this, uh, and support myself from it. You can also support us by buying, uh, stuff at Amazon through our search link on our home page, uh, or you can buy a t-shirt. Uh, you can support us non-financially two ways: by going to iTunes and giving us a good rating, that boosts our ranking, brings more people to the show; and you can also, uh, help us by spreading the word. Uh, since I started asking people to do that, I have noticed that our, um, numbers have uh, been increasing a little bit, so it seems to be working. So, if you could promote the show, uh, on Reddit, um, Tumblr, Facebook, all of those, uh, all of those places. Any little bit is greatly appreciated. I think that is it for the tiring, endless series of announcements.
Um, the first survey that I want to read, as I said, is from the Shame and Secrets survey, it’s, uh filled out by Anne Marie. She’s straight, she’s in her 40’s, was raised in a, uh, slightly dysfunctional environment, um, was the—I have two answers for, “Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” She writes, “Yes, and I never reported it.” And, “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts as sexual abuse.”
Um, so I guess this must be the second one. She writes, um, oh no, I see she has divided them. Um, “Repeatedly,” the one she never reported, “Repeatedly molested by a male student when we were both in sixth grade. Unknowingly my parents made it worse by insisting I partner with this kid on a science fair project. Our parents would hang out upstairs having a lovely time while this creep forcibly molested me in the basement. Other stuff was when I was second or third grade playing naked games with the neighbor kids. While I knew it was wrong, I also willingly participated. Where was the adult supervision in early 1970’s?” Um, I don’t know. I played naked games with neighborhood kids who were my age and I certainly didn’t see anything wrong with that because everybody seemed to be a willing participant, but I suppose if somebody wasn’t um—it’s hard to say unless you were there what, uh, what kind of vibe something took on.
“Deepest, darkest thoughts?” She writes, “When I get home from work to find my partner drunk, I wish I could kill him and never get caught. I have a recurring dream where I hit my father as hard as I can with a cast iron pan or baseball bat. I know this comes from deep resentment of his mental illness. He’s a hoarder whose disease caused me to grow up in an increasingly disgusting house where I couldn’t have friends over ever. And caused my loyal, Catholic mom to live in a his squalor almost until she died of cancer.” Well this is a real pick-me-up, way to send them home smiling, Paul. Uh, she writes, “We had to do an emergency cleanup so she could have family and hospice in her home in her last days. Also I wish he’d died before mom so she could enjoy life without him as an albatross.”
Um, “What sexual fantasies are most powerful to you?” She writes, “I’m kind of broken sexually and don’t really have much of a sexual fantasy life. For some reason, I’ve had several explicit sex dreams about Doug Benson in the past year or so.” That’s why I wanted to read this! Uh, she writes, “I’m totally serious. I find DB hilarious but he’s really not my fantasy guy.” Isn’t that weird how somebody cannot be our type but we have, like, the most amazing sexual dream about them?
Um, “ Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?” She writes, “My partner, no, because I don’t want him to analyze where the thoughts are coming from. My best friend of course because the dreams are so damn funny and unlike me in real life, she would totally get it.”
“Deepest, darkest secrets?” She writes, “I constantly stole money from my parents as a teenager so I could buy smokes and weed.” Oh, the weed, maybe that’s why the Doug Benson thing. “I have food issues and go through phases of sneak-eating and hiding the evidence.”
Uh, “Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” She writes, “The stealing always felt justified in direct compensation for dysfunctional parents. The sneak-eating makes me feel like an out-of-control loser.”
Well, uh, this next one is from a guy who calls himself Not So Cruel Cat. He is straight, he’s in his 20’s. Um, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment. Never been sexually abused. Uh, “Deepest, darkest thoughts?” He writes, “I have this weird fantasy—“ I believe he’s from Mexico so sometimes his grammar is a little, uh, hard to understand—he writes, “I have this weird fantasies about getting a terminal illness like cancer or whatever and being super-strong about it or my family dying and me having this epiphany about life or a group of dudes raping and killing someone close to me, and me hunting them down and torturing them in fucking twisted ways, then getting caught by the cops for it and becoming famous.” Uh, I think I had that kind of a thing too, like when I was in my, uh, in my 20’s, that kind of action hero, uh, just wanting to be special and macho at the same time, to the nth degree. Uh, he continues, “I feel like in my thoughts I have this incessant need to have sympathy and admiration from people, but always at the cost of my family or my health or something.”
Uh, “Most powerful sexual fantasies?” He writes, “Incestual fantasies, always about my cousins, who are pretty hot, and with whom I have a very good friendship. In the most common scenario, I get them blackout drunk or give them roofies and then do disgusting things to them. Also I imagine it would be awhile back when they were 14 or 15. I have this this thing for girls from 14 to 18 since I was at that age and I have acted on it, never without their permission.”
Um, “Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?” He writes, “No because they’re fucking disgusting.”
“Deepest, darkest secrets?” He writes, “Uh, I had a pathological lying streak when I was a teenager and have left that behind for the most part but I still frequent friends I had in those days and I avoid at all costs any conversation that could lead to those lies, and I get so anxious about it because I can’t stand the idea of them knowing that I lied for long about things so stupid. When I drink a little too much or when I’m way too horny, I hit on girls really aggressively. Always friends or friend of friends and sometimes, not even with words, just touching them out of nowhere. If they are fucked up enough, sometimes they go with it and I have crazy sex and sometimes it gets me in trouble. It has happened several times and I seem to lose control completely in a crazy sexual act of self-sabotage. Always with just the wrong girls. My fifteen-year-old cousin led to sex, no one knows. My ex-girlfriend’s fourteen-year-old sister led to sex, cost me my relationship. One of my best friends’ girlfriends, she turned me down. Cost me my friendship and the list goes on and on.”
“Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself?” He writes, “Of course! I feel ashamed. I feel isolated and I feel so disgusting and guilty and my self-pity is just so fucking pathetic. I can barely breathe. It’s so exhausting being like this and not knowing why.”
Um, “Do you have any comments or suggestions to make the podcast better?” He says, “Not really. I love it – the format, the honesty, the guests, it’s really refreshing. I know this is not the place to write this, but I’ve gone to doctors before and they gave me this easy diagnostics and drugs that do not work. I live in Mexico and I’m kind of broke, so no decent therapist for me. All I know is that I’m miserable, anxious beyond measure, and so, so afraid. If someone has any idea what the fuck is wrong with me or whatever, please help me!” That, uh, that breaks my heart, that, uh, that survey, uh, cuz it sounds like you know that you’re doing stuff that is crossing other people’s boundaries, um, but you can’t stop doing it. And it revolves, it sounds like a lot of it revolves around sex and alcohol, and so my, my suggestion would be, um, checking out a support group for sex addiction or drug and alcohol addiction. Th-that would be my two cents, um, again, I am no therapist, but um, used to have a killer ten minutes on the differences between dogs and cats and took it around the country and a lot of people laughed at it.
This final survey is from a guy who calls himself Fun Time Charlie. He’s straight, he’s in his 20’s. A-and I wanted to read this, um, Not So Cool Cat, the previous survey, I wanted to read this one after yours and I-I-I think you’ll understand why after I read it. Um, Fun Time Charlie is in his 20’s, was raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment, he writes, “There was some divorce.” Not a lot, just some – you have some divorce, not a lot. (laughs) Just some.
Um, “Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse?” He writes, “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts as sexual abuse. When I was seven, a neighbor who was also seven wanted to play the game “sex.” He said he saw his parents playing. Apparently you take off all your clothes and sit in the closet. So I stripped down, got in the closet, and he told me we were supposed to hug, so we did that. Then I remember feeling weird and wanting to get out of the closet. He also used to put Legos in my butt, like I said, boys will be boys. Not sure if that counts as abuse or just dumb kid stuff, but I’ve always felt ashamed of it and never told anybody until right now.”
“Deepest, darkest thoughts?” He writes, “I think about hanging myself in my basement. I think about gay sex. I’m not gay but I think about it and I think how gross it is. I sometimes have gay sex nightmares and I’ll wake up in a cold sweat panic and go, ‘Phew, so glad there’s not a cock in my mouth. That was a close call. Dodged another gay bullet.’”
Um, “Most powerful sexual fantasies?” He writes, “This is so fucking sad. Yuck. Ok. I have the sexual fantasy that one day I will be able to have sex with a woman without being drunk or stoned. And to be able to have real, passionate female fan fiction erotica novel style, slow and heartfelt, sincere love making and for once have it not feel entirely shameful and awkward once we’re both finished. AND to be able to remember it. Basically to have sex. That is my fantasy. I told you it was sad.” I don’t think that’s sad at all. I think if you never got to that place in your life, that would be sad. But I don’t think most people are born just, you know, into their adult sexual life having no hang-ups or no issues or nothing that they’re—I think it takes work for most people.
Um, “Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies?” He writes, “Maybe a partner one day. But never to my friends. I don’t talk about sex with my friends. Too uncomfortable.”
“Deepest, darkest secrets?” He writes, “I used to drink a fifth a day. Then I would proceed to get in my car, drive to Taco Bell, get $30 worth of food, shove it down my throat, then get all bulimic and purge it all. I never told anybody how bad my drinking or bulimia used to be. I’ve been sober and purge-free for ten months.”
“Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings toward yourself?” He writes, “Complete and utter self-hatred. I still cannot believe I let drinking and bulimia get ahold of me, especially after watching what it did to my sister. I can’t believe I fell into that trap.”
Um, “Any comments or suggestions to make the podcast better?” He writes, “I love the podcasts. Listening to all these people share their stories really does make me feel like I’m less alone. It makes me feel stronger. Since listening, I started getting some help for myself and I started a stream of consciousness journal that is incredibly helpful. I’m reading the books you and your guests suggest. I’m really and truly actively working on being a better person since tuning in. I just wanted to say thank you for getting me started. I’m just another Fucked Up Charlie out there in the wild, Wild West. I suppose we all are.” That’s why I wanted to read that one after the previous one, because it just, uh—you know, I’m gonna quote a friend of mine, Zack, said at our support group the other night, he said, “Willingness without action is just fantasy.” And I think that is so true. Many of us think we we’re willing to get better and change but we’re not willing to take those actions to get out of our comfort zone. And, that last guy whose survey I read, um, he’s doing it. So Fun Time Charlie, good for you, man. And this stuff takes time. It definitely takes time. So be patient with yourself. And anybody who’s out there and is struggling, feeling stuck, um, you know what I’m gonna say. Go fuck yourself. No! The other one. There’s hope. There is hope if you’re willing to get out of your comfort zone and try something new. Reach out, ask for help. It’s the way to go. It saved my life and, uh, just know that you’re not alone. And thanks for listening.
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