Nerds get bullied – but nerds who are also “spazzes” as Dan describes his younger self, get the worst of it. The comedian/writer opens up about the abuse he endured as well as the tactics one can employ to minimize it. He and Paul talk about science, Tycho Brahe, atheism, hostile audiences, the questioning of one’s sexuality and the difficulty in silencing internal messages that were literally pounded in.
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Episode notes:
Visit Dan's website. Follow him on Twitter @dantelfer.
To purchase the books mentioned by Paul on this episode (Victims No Longer and War and The Soul) click on this link.
Episode Transcript:
The Mental Illness Happy Hour: Episode 78 – Dan Telfer
Paul: Welcome to Episode 78 with my guest, Dan Telfer. I’m Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour. An hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. It’s not a doctor’s office. It’s more like a waiting room that hopefully does not suck. Thank you guys so much for, uh, your nice feedback on, uh, our previous episode, Episode 77. I was a little nervous about that because there was no guest. It was just me reading, uh, surveys that you had filled out and, uh, and e-mails and stuff like that and, uh, apparently you guys liked it. So that, uh, that brought me a lot of, uh, a lot of relief. Uh, although one person did e-mail me and tell me that, uh, they did actually flee that episode like a rat on a sinking ship. Um, but just one person, so. Um, what did I want to mention? The Web site for this show is mentalpod.com. Go check it out. All kinds of stuff there. A forum, you can take surveys, you can support the show. Um, there are resources you can, you can, uh, connect to. Other Web sites to help find a therapist and stuff like that. Um, I want to kick things off with, uh, I always like a little success story. With all the darkness in the show. And, uh, this is an e-mail I got from a guy who, uh, says, “You can refer to me as Ides, like, uh, Beware the Ides of March.” He doesn’t want to use his, uh, his real name. He says, “Paul, I’m, I’m listening to Episode 77 right now, and I just want to drop you a line to let you know how much your podcast has helped me. I’ve been a listener for almost a year now. I began listening at a pretty dark place in my life. Through you, I learned about therapy and took the steps to start seek – uh, seeing a therapist on a regular basis. I can’t tell you what a complete difference it has made in my life. I think I’m becoming a better person, and I’m finally able to pinpoint sources of frustration and anxiety that have plagued me and that I’ve been unable to identify for so long. For me, therapy has been a process of unraveling a whole bunch of tangled-up emotions and experiences that have manifested themselves in a myriad of different ways. I got to a point where I was left feeling exhausted all the time from consistently wrestling my emotions. Whenever I get frustrated with a lack of progress or momentum, I just look back at what I was at the beginning of this process, and I am simply left with a feeling of overwhelming gratitude at how much easier life as become and how much better life is going to be.” Wow. Love hearing stuff like that. I cannot overstate how important talking to somebody else is. Uh, especially because, if I’m not mistaken, this is, uh, Suicide Prevention Week, and that gives me, um, a, uh, perfect excuse to plug a walk that is taking place on Saturday, September 29th in Chicago. I believe it’s taking place in Libertyville. It is, uh, to raise money for suicide prevention. Um, it’s the Out of the Darkness, uh, Foundation. And they are, uh, looking to raise, uh, a tidy sum of money. I think their goal is $300,000, and they’re at about 200, uh, right now. But the Web site to get involved, to either support, uh, and sponsor somebody or to sign up and walk yourself, that Web site is chicagowalk.org. And, uh, they’re a great organization, so please go, uh, go support that. Uh, I want to share a fear with you that a listener sent me. Um, this is from Dimitri, and it just – uh, I’ll just read the fear. He says, uh, “I look inside myself and see how much I am broken, and I’m afraid that it makes me normal, and all I need to fix myself is a courage I’ll never have, and looking for help is just an excuse not to face my fears head-on, and in the end I’ll have to become better by myself alone, because there’s no help.” When I read that fear, I – I – I just – that is such a deeply profound and articulated fear that I think so many of us have inside us is that we’re going to waste our time trying to reach out for help and we’re beyond help, or help actually exists, but it’s up to us and we can’t do it, which is such a s – secretly self-hating way of sabotaging yourself, but thank you for that, Dimitri. I related to that a lot. I think I’ve felt that fear many times, but never really been able to articulate it the way you did. This I wanted to read, this is from the Struggle in a Sentence survey, and I was kind of struck that two teenage girls back-to-back filled out – the survey Struggle in a Sentence is where I invite people to take this survey and try to describe in a sentence or two what your particular struggle is like so that people who don’t struggle with that can maybe better understand what it feels like to be in your shoes. And these two teenage girls, uh, separately, um, and eloquently described what it feels like to have been a sex crime victim. And I’ll read you the first one, is from, um, her name is Layla, uh, she’s straight and she’s, uh, between 16 and 19, and she writes, about being a sex crime victim, “Forget sometimes that when someone loves you, they don’t want to take anything away from you. Forget that being there is enough. Forget that talking is enough. You don’t have to break yourself to please them.” And then the other, uh, girl, uh, who calls herself Little Asian, uh, she’s female, obviously, straight, uh, she’s 16 to 19 as well, and she writes about being a sex crime victim, “The desire of love is to give and the desire of lust is to get. It feels like nobody can give me back what I lost, so they take more from me.” Sorry if that’s a little, a little dark and kind of a bummer, but, um, I think that’s one of the things that we do on the show is, is not shy away from something ‘cause it’s dark or it’s sad. Um, and I want to thank those two, uh, young women for taking that survey and helping articulate what, what it must feel like that, uh, that they’re going through. Uh, I want to read an e-mail I got from a therapist. Uh, his name is Adam. He writes, uh, “Dear Paul, I’m writing for two reasons. One, because I was just listening to your latest episode and was moved at how you describe the victimization that so many people feel is an attack on their souls. It is true that when one suffers an attack on their psyche, uh, i.e., abuse, neglect, rape, et cetera, that the attack can leave both lasting visual scars, but even deeper emotional ones which take even greater efforts to heal. I’m a therapist in Connecticut who specializes in expressive therapies and trauma work, and there are two books that I use frequently with survivors, and I hope that they can be useful starting-off points for your listeners who haven’t gone to seek help yet or for those who are looking for more information. The first is Victims no Longer, Men Recovering from Incest and Other Sexual Childhood Trauma, by Mike Lew, L-E-W, and Ed Dee. Um, again, the name of the out – I’ll put the link to that on the, uh, show notes for this episode. And, uh, he writes, “His book is great because it addresses everything that you were talking about on the podcast from guilt, shame, arousal, to how, uh, society depicts men unfairly. It also has useful exercises that people can try, and most importantly, it’s easy to read and understand. The second book is War and the Soul: Healing Our Nation’s Veterans from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, by Edward Tick, PhD. Again, a very powerful book about feeling the exact moment that we no longer were human and what one had to do to survive and how we came back from that. This one is more geared towards veterans, but I feel that much of what he talks about is applicable to anyone who has had to endure long-term trauma and/or suffering at any stage in life. I hope that these suggestions are helpful, and I want to say thank you for continuing with the show. I found it – I find it helpful both professionally and personally, and find myself recommending it to both colleagues and to clients, because I feel that you’ve been doing a great job in helping to pull back the curtain on mental illness so that people don’t’ have to suffer in silence or feel alone anymore. Thank you, Adam.” Thank you, Adam. I take that as a, um, a huge compliment, and that makes me feel really, really good. And, um, um, the little voice in my head right now is going, “Oh, you’re such a braggart. You’ve gotta show that off to everybody.” No, I’m proud of that. That’s OK. Fuck you, voice in my brain. And I want to, I want to end this intro part with, uh, a quote, uh, from Steve Furtick. Somebody sent this to me. Apparently this is something that Steve Furtick said. “The reason we struggle with insecurity is because we compare our behind the scenes with everyone else’s highlight reel.”
[intro music starts playing]
Everybody I know is bizarrely, beautifully fucked up in some weird way.
I couldn’t stand you in the audition.
I couldn’t stand you.
Yes, awful. I was drunk.
And I learned that I could solve my problems –
And sad.
Through violence, since I couldn’t communicate.
Lonely?
Yes.
I’m afraid that my genitalia is ugly.
That’s hurtful.
And what was your role in the robbery?
I mean, you never knew what you were going home to.
I had a jar that had teeth in it.
I was a wreck.
Other people’s teeth?
Yeah.
[laughter]
Paul: I’m here with, uh, with Dan Telfer, who’s a Chicago-based stand-up comedian. He’s a, uh, a writer for, uh, for The Onion AV Club. He was a, uh, host for The Onion’s Web series, Pop Pilgrims. And, uh, he’s a father. He’s sleep-deprived.
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: And, uh, and he was suggested, uh, as a guest, uh, to me by, uh, by a friend. And, uh, so I’m, uh, I’m learning about Dan as you learn about Dan. We just literally met, uh, fifteen minutes ago. And, uh, you’ve been up for, what, twenty-four hours?
Dan: Uh, something like that. Probably more like thirty or so. Actually, the night before last, I didn’t really sleep either, so maybe going on fifty hours or so [laughs].
Paul: Oh, this’ll be nice. This’ll be nice. We’ll get the little hallucinations in here.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
Paul: Um, so you’ve got how many kids?
Dan: Two. I have a three-and-a-half-year-old and a one-month-old.
Paul: Well, those don’t require any attention, so…
Dan: No, no. Those are, those are very independent, uh…
Paul: How long have you been doing, uh, stand-up comedy?
Dan: Um, I’ve been doing stand-up for about four years, um, but I’ve been doing, I’ve been writing and performing comedy for about fifteen years.
Paul: Okay. What – what –
Dan: I just sort of segued into it.
Paul: What were you doing before stand-up?
Dan: Uh, I was a playwright, an actor, in college, and then I started doing one-man shows, like, the tail end of college, I started doing, like, oh, solo performance, and, um, then I started mostly doing, like, that and, uh, and then I started mixing in sketch and improv, and I sort of bounced around. A lot of different stuff. Never settling on anything, always feeling like maybe if I keep doing everything, eventually one of these will –
Paul: Right.
Dan: – make me proud of what I’m doing.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Uh, and I always felt like I was pretty good at everything, but it would get really frustrated that nothing was sticking, that nothing was, like, completely taking off, and I wasn’t like, uh, feeling independent in any one arena. And then I tried stand-up after talking myself out of it for a long time. ‘Cause I was just like, so I went to college during, I think, the absolute peak of that blue-collar, uh, thing, and that is, like that.
Paul: What, what do you mean when you say the blue-collar thing?
Dan: The, the Jeff Foxworthy –
Paul: Oh, OK.
Dan: – Ron White, um, success story. And that was just so far away from what I would have done with it that I was just like, “Nobody wants to see what I would do if I were a stand-up comedian.” [laughs] So I stuck to the more pretentious stuff, and then with – even with comedy, like, I would stick to the more, like, weird sketch and, like, weird improv. And then, um, and then finally, I just, I had seen enough people I liked where I was like, “I should, I should do this.”
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And then I went – it went really well, really fast, and so I just sort of dropped everything else.
Paul: Oh, that’s great that you found that. ‘Cause there’s nothing more frustrating than feeling like you’ve got nine things that might hit, and you’ve got to put everything into all nine of them, and, uh…
Dan: Yeah, it’s the worst.
Paul:…Yeah.
Dan: ‘Cause I have novels that I’ve written that just sit there.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And, uh, that is like, oh, God, there’s nothing worse than when you, like, you realize you have thousands and thousands of words that nobody is particularly interested in ever reading under any circumstance. [laughs] You’re like, “Aagh!” Uh, it’s, uh, yeah, like, I – I don’t know what –
Paul: You’re probably being a little hard on yourself, but that’s also probably why you were recommended as a guest for this, for this, for this podcast.
Dan: [laughs] That may be one of my defining traits is, uh, self-flagellation. But, like, yeah. Like, I – I – I don’t know why I was determined to do so many things at once. But I was also, like, an illustrator. I mean, I just did all sorts of stuff where, like, I felt like I was decent at it and wanted to be good at everything, but, uh, I’m lucky the stand-up thing came along, because, um, I obsess so much that having one thing to focus on is great for productivity [laughs].
Paul: It’s, it’s really, it’s really great, and, uh, you know, as an artist, there’s nothing more frustrating than not – not knowing what to, what to focus in on in that, in that sinking feeling that you have made the wrong choice, and –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – and, and that you’re walking in the opposite direction, and if only you’d known, you know. If only you’d have paid attention to the signs that the universe gave you.
Dan: Yeah, and then – ‘cause, like, when you graduate college, if you’re lucky enough to go to college.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: You – you know, whenever you’re done with school, you are finally alone at sea, like, in a way you don’t even expect you will be. Where there’s no structure being handed to you, there’s no plan, there’s nothing. You, you have to now be at peace with the massive endlessness of the terrifying universe, and that –
Paul: And the choices that you make.
Dan: Yeah, I mean, like, so many people I went to college with went completely nuts within the first year.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: They, they, they just did something that made them fall off the deep end, and they just moved back in with their parents forever.
Paul: Yeah, it’s your first taste of, of being your own boss, you know, on a very small level.
Dan: Yeah. And so, I, I mean, if – and that happened a lot, ‘cause I went to acting school, too, I think, where –
Paul: Where’d you go?
Dan: Uh, Columbia College Chicago.
Paul: Okay.
Dan: Uh, and, like, there were people who, much like me, like, were just character actors, or, like, not leading roles, or, like, not personality types where they were going to get a lot of work commercially or in theater and, like, once they discovered that [laughs] and, like, that they were competing with hundreds of people for one or two roles across the entire city, it was just, like, that was – that’s terrifying.
Paul: Yeah, you may – you may have been funny in your high school, and it was easy to get cast ‘cause you were one of five people that took the theater class in high school, but yeah, now welcome, welcome to the next level up in the, in the real world. So, uh, tell me about yourself. Where, where were you born, what was, um, you know, childhood like?
Dan: Uh, I, I was born in Joliet, Illinois, um, and I grew up on the south suburbs. And I, I’m kind of lucky that I have a really bad memory, both short-term and long-term, so I don’t remember a lot of long stretches of my childhood, but I had a pretty miserable childhood. Like, I – I…
Paul: Like, how so?
Dan: I got bullied a lot. And I think it’s a lot because I am an introvert for the most part. And I think my natural state, uh, when I, I don’t have any coping skills is to just shut down and stare at something. And, uh – that’s great.
Paul: Which just feeds the bullies even more, yeah.
Dan: Yeah, and like, it was, and I – I – I was hyper, but it would only be with, like, a couple people, and then I wouldn’t participate in class at all, or I would just, I would – it was weird. Like, at first I was really hyper, and then the school system kind of broke me, and then I just sort of stared out windows all the time.
Paul: Would it be fair to call you a spaz?
Dan: Yes! That would definitely be fair. But also, like, uh, a very, uh, brooding spaz.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan. Um, but yeah, like, I, I got bullied a lot, and I think a lot of it was because I didn’t understand what kind of, like, flailing bait I turned myself into. Like, I didn’t, I didn’t get that you couldn’t be – and I still haven’t unders – I still can’t pin myself down personality-wise, obviously, and I don’t know how to describe myself to people, but, like, I will be really loud and then not understand why people are looking at me.
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: Like, I will, I will – I will talk too loud, I will do something spastic, like, physically, and then if people scowl at me, I’m like, “What the fuck is your problem? Like, I’m just being me. Like [mumbles].” Uh, and get really defensive about it.
Paul: Which, in a perf –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – in a perfect world, you know, you’re right, that’s how it should be. It should be, you should be able to be yourself, but –
Dan: It’s a very childish way to live your life, though, where, like, you’re like, “Oh, what?” [laughs]
Paul: It is –
Dan: “So what, I’ve disrupted everything around me?” [laughs]
Paul: But, you know, high – grade school and high school are really, it’s a, it’s a mini-jungle, and, and it’s, you know, there’s just predators looking for weakness, and you see somebody doing something socially awkward, and you’re like, “Oh. Dinner.”
Dan: Yeah, and right around fifth grade was when it started getting absolutely brutal, where I switched schools a couple times, and then it was like, the bullies – that school was very small, there was, like, only forty kids in my class up from, like, fifth grade to eighth grade, the same school. And, uh, yeah, like, they [laughs] they, they knew that I was going to be the bottom of the pecking order and that they could keep that, uh, they could keep that going. And they did, right up till the end of eighth grade when I got so tall that it was kind of like, you had to leave me alone.
Paul: Oh, yeah, so you could finally stick up for yourself.
Dan: Yeah, uh, a little bit. Um, but I think they also, like, there’s that wonderful thing about being tall where, even if you have no muscle mass whatsoever, through sheer, like, kinetic energy, you can knock a tooth out of somebody’s mouth.
Paul: Right.
Dan: By accident. And so…
Paul: Did that happen?
Dan: No! But, um, like, I got, I got in a lot of, uh, fights where all I did was curl up in a ball or run away, but, uh, at one point this other kid who was new, and this was, I think, seventh or eighth grade, I can’t remember, uh, the other kids were like, you, you know, “You two are the bottom of the barrel. Who's going to be the shittiest nerd? Which one of you, gotta pick?” And we were both like, “ugh.” Uh, but then they were like, “You’ve gotta fight each other. We’re going to have a nerd fight.”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: “Like, one of you is going to beat the other one.” And, um, and, uh, I’d never hit anyone and, uh, to this day I haven’t really, like, ever hit anyone. But, uh, this other kid was raring to go at a certain point. Like, they at some point hit a nerve on him, whereas I had been, like, finding better ways to shut – I was, I was developing shutdown skills. Um, he was like, “I have to prove myself in this new school.” So he was like, “All right. I’m gonna fuckin’ fight you in the library at one o’clock.” And I was –
Paul: How beautiful that the nerds decide – decide to fight each other in the library.
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: They don’t even realize, they don’t even realize another room exists [laughs].
Dan: Yeah. And, like, part of me wonders, too, like, if somebody, uh, one of the bullies, like, put that in his head. Like, “That’s where everybody fights, man.” And he was like, “Oh, of course it is.” So he, uh, confronted me and, and we, and he did, like, a boxing stance. And I was like, “What is happening?”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: ‘Cause he was as bad as it as I was.
Paul: He was drawing on his love of movies.
Dan: Yeah, and so he took a swing at me, and I dodged it like it was the easiest thing in the world. ‘Cause I was like, “Clearly this kid has never actually gotten beat up, but this school has been pounding me for three years. Like, this is not going to happen.” So I just sort of sidestepped and I gave him, like, a swipe.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: With my hand, where, like, it was like reflex more than anything. I didn’t even make a fist. And I clocked him so hard that he flipped over backwards.
Paul: Oh, my God!
Dan: And it was like, “Oh! I can do that! I’ll never try that again.” But he had a black eye and was, like, humiliated.
Paul: From a slap.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was absolutely humiliated. And I, I apologized to him. I was like, “Dude. I – look. I told you I didn’t want to fight.”
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: “We’re – if we’re going to be nerds – “
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: “You know, we have to look out for each other.” And, and he was not having the apology or anything.
Paul: This is like a Movie of the Week.
Dan: He was like, “Fuck you, man. You fuckin’ gave me a black eye. I’m going to fuckin’ kill you.”
Paul: Did he ever forgive you?
Dan: No. No, but who cares. Like, at that point, like, I was lucky the last few months of eighth grade, where I was still surrounded by shitty bullies and people who had betrayed me as pseudo-friends, but I didn’t care about any of them anymore. Like, I was like, “I’m going to get the fuck out of there.”
Paul: And then, and then he held the bitterest of grudges, the nerd grudge.
Dan: He’s still floating out there somehow.
Paul: That is – right now he’s writing code that will spite you.
Dan: I’m, I’m sure. And it’s funny, every once in a while I’ll have somebody add me as a friend, uh, on a social Web site, and I’ll be like, “You were super shitty to me.” Although I had the best – the best thing happened to me. I don’t think any nerd will – can get more lucky than this. Uh, on MySpace in its waning days, the worst bully, the one who, like, was constantly, like, smashing my face into steel water fountains and stuff, uh, sent me a MySpace message, and he was now – he had sort of somehow become one of those, like, barefoot guitar-playing hippies.
Paul: Really?
Dan: In his thirties, and, uh, he was just, like, “Hey, man. Looks like you’re doing pretty well for yourself with the comedy. Uh, I just want to say, I know I was pretty shitty to you when we were kids, and I don’t know if you even remember me, but, uh, my name is” – and I’ll leave his name out.
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: I’ll give him that. But yeah, and it was just, like, a total apology. And, uh, yeah. I don’t think you can ask for better than that.
Paul: Well, that’s nice.
Dan: Yeah, and then he was, he did –
Paul: That’s nice that he did that.
Dan: Yeah, and then he was like, “Yeah, so that’s it. That’s all I want to say. And so who knows if he was going through something, but I was like – I think, I think the biggest, the shittiest thing about bullying, ‘cause I got bullied more when I went to high school, uh, and that was a very, like –
Paul: So it got even worse.
Dan: Oh, it got way worse in high school. At least for a year. Um, but, like, no – no person who gets bullied should ever expect the bully to remember any of it. Like, being a bully is all about maintaining status, and so I think when you get smacked around, you – it’s really hard, but you have to remember, like, that is like the smallest part of that person’s day. Like, that is like – that’s like toothbrushing. That’s like, “I have to stay where I am. The only way I can do it is like – pop, pop. All right, now I’ve gotta go impress these ladies.” Um, they don’t realize that all you have is being beat and then you stare at a wall for the rest of the day.
Paul: Right.
Dan: Uh, and so I was amazed this guy remembered. ‘Cause I – I was so used to people just treating me like garbage and then acting like nothing had happened. Like, my freshman year of high school, there were a bunch of people who either smacked me around or said horrible, shitty things about me, and then senior year, would pretend like none of it had happened, because I had become more socially adjusted.
Paul: Really?
Dan: And so I had – I already, actually, I already understood the game, where I was like…
Paul: That’s amazing that you could, that you could break that down at, uh, at such an early age. But again, I think that’s one of the things, one of the unintended gifts of pain is that it forces you to kind of look at something and try to make sense of it, and a lot of times that intelligence that we’re forced to have to survive then benefits us later in life, if not as an artist, just for – for coping as an adult, where then a lot of times the meathead that was the person that beat on people kind of still goes through life confused, ‘cause they, they never had to really kind of stop and think about why things are the way they are and how might I change what I’m doing to affect this dynamic that, you know, that isn’t really working out for me? But let’s go back to, um, to, uh, your, your childhood. Was there anybody that, that you could kind of go to and say, “Hey, what do I – what do I do here?” Did you have any friends? What…
Dan: Mmm, not really. Like, I – ‘cause I –
Paul: Did you just feel totally alone in – in – in this whole endeavor?
Dan: Pretty much. Like, I had a couple of friends here and there, but they would – often, because I was a spaz, like, have to, at a certain point, be like, “I have to distance myself from this guy. Like, he has no self-control.”
Paul: Just survival.
Dan: Yeah, totally. Like, I remember, uh, one of my first friends was this guy Matt, and he had a, um, a, uh, hormone problem where he was really big for his age. Like, he was, like, twice as tall as he should be. And so his parents were very protective of him. Um, but there was nothing wrong with him developmentally. He was a very, very smart, bright guy. Uh, but he was really tall. Like, like, it stood out, and, um, I think he might have gotten, uh, teased for quite a bit. Uh, but I – he would – but that, to me, was like, “Oh, perfect. Like, I’ll hang out with this guy.” Um, but I was such a spaz, like, I got banned from his house at one point.
Paul: Really?
Dan: I, I jokingly trapped myself under his garage door, um, and realized that, uh, while the garage door had a safety catch, it didn’t have a way to bounce back, so I got stuck under his garage door, just doing a stupid bit of like, “Oh, hey, this garage door’s gonna trap me.” When I was like, in fourth grade or something like that.
Paul: And so it did literally pin you.
Dan: Yeah, it did pin me. I mean, I’m lucky it didn’t cut me in half. But, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, then his parents were like, “You can’t have Dan over anymore. He – we have to take care of you, and what if something horrible had happened, what if he did this to you?” I remember that was one thing they turned up – “what if he did this to you?” Like, like, that’s – I don’t know, I think that’s so funny that, like, it’s already a complicated enough, weird bit that I was doing, weird little comedy routine I was doing of, like, “What if this garage door – oh, no, aagh!” They’re like, how would I trick him into being, like, [laughs] “hey, what if he’s – what if you were to lay under your own garage door? What would that be like if I closed the garage door?” But that’s what his parents were worried about. Um, and I can definitely, I get it, I guess, as somebody who’s been bullied, like, you worry someone would trick your kid into, like [laughs] –
Paul: Right.
Dan: – pinning themself under a garage door.
Paul: Right. So did it, did it ease up at any point?
Dan: Yeah, but it was so slow, the way it eased up, um. I mean, like, I – maybe I should skip ahead a little bit so I don’t sound like too much of a crybaby, but I’m not really proud of anything I’ve done socially until I was at least thirty. Like, I think anybody [laughs] that knows me –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Anyone who’s known me for more, um, more than like ten years or so knows, like, I’m – I’ve always been a spaz. I’m like – but also, ‘cause I’ll get, like, super wound-up about stuff. I just have made dumb choices or embarrassing choices, like, where it’s not – it’s not life-threatening, but I just, it’s like, stupid or gross. Like, every girl I’ve ever, uh, dated before my wife, like, it’s like, I – I couldn’t hang out with them. They know things about me that are just too shameful.
Paul: You look – you look back and cringe.
Dan: Yeah. About junior year in – was it sophomore year or junior year? Uh, it must have been sophomore year. Uh, I was eating lunch by myself, as was the tradition. I didn’t like nerds, uh, at that point. I was like – I, at that point I was smart enough to judge everyone.
Paul: You were a self-hating nerd.
Dan: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And – and I – and I was never, like, I’ll sometimes describe myself as a nerd, but only so people know what to make of me. I think “spaz” is probably a much better word for what I am. Uh, I was terrible in all my classes. I would just go to sleep and hate myself. [laughs] Just ignore what was happening. But, um, I was eating lunch by myself, and these kids came over and, uh, they were seniors and they were with, like, uh, there’s this thing called Operation Snowball, which is, like, a prevention program for teenagers, where they, they try to get you to not smoke or drink. Um, but there’s also a big social component to it, of just, like, “What if we were nice to everybody? Wouldn’t that be crazy?” And, um, and they just picked me out, ‘cause I was probably the sorest thumb in this huge high school. Uh, and, uh, they got me to go to this thing, it was, like, a retreat, that – this Operation Snowball thing, where they would take people from this public high school, put them in, in these, uh, cabins in the woods, and have these small-group discussions with other teenagers from their school who they didn’t know, uh, with this, with these, like, anon – anono-mimi-nee-minee – uh, how do you pronounce that word?
Paul: Anonymity.
Dan: Anonymity. Uh, it’s like “sea anemone,” but it’s “anonymity.” Um, with these clauses where, like, you would say, like, “We will never discuss this again outside of here.” And that was awesome, uh, for me, because I had lots of thoughts and zero venue for them. (laughs). Like, I was involved in no extracurricular activities. And so I just, super-needily, was like, gushing in these things, and then I went back, uh, my junior and senior year and started volunteering, and then I volunteered for them for ten years after I graduated high school. Um, and that was a big part of my life for a long time, where – just for the social aspect. Like, the, the smoking and drinking and drugs and stuff part was not that important to me. To me it was more about, uh, drawing out outcasts and making them feel comfortable, and stuff like that.
Paul: And so, did you feel like that was the first place where you were accepted?
Dan: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Paul: Yeah. What, what did that feel like?
Dan: It was amazing! Uh, [clears throat], I think for me, it was mostly because, uh –
Paul: And you, and you would have been how old the first time you experienced this?
Dan: Fifteen?
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: So it was just like, I – my brain just felt like an overheated hard drive. Like, it just felt like I was always obsessing about stuff and going on these long narratives that nobody gave a shit about.
Paul: Outwardly, or in your head?
Dan: IN my head. Like I was – yeah. And like, I had, at that point I hadn’t even discovered writing, which would become a great outlet later on, but I, uh, I wasn’t doing anything with all my pent-up issues. Um, and then all of a sudden people would listen. Like, that was crazy. Like, they would set aside, like, for four days, like, all these times where kids could just vent. And it didn’t have to be a therapy session. Like, I remember I got beat up a lot my freshman year, and my guidance counselor, like, had me brought in and was like, “You know, some schools would give their kids, uh, detention for getting beat up all the time, cause they would – or call their parents, but, like, we just wanted to make sure, like, what’s going on with you?” [laughs] Like, I – and I didn’t want to talk about it, because I didn’t – I felt like that was putting too much pressure on me. I felt like that was saying something was wrong with me even more, and I would rather deal with that myself than, like, have this adult who was being paid something to deal with it. But at this retreat thing, it was like –
Paul: And, and they never thought to ask themselves, “Maybe the guys beating this kid up are the ones that need addressing?”
Dan: [laughs] I also went to a really nice high school, for a public high school, and I think this is very common, but like, you know – ‘cause it’s in all the movies. Like, the bullies are the rich kids, most of the time, where even if they’re not the football player dropping you in a dumpster, they’re, they’re like, a preppy kid who just gleefully delights in ripping you to shreds socially. So it was like – yeah, like, those kids don’t get in trouble. [laughs]. Like, they’re – they’re constantly coming in for meetings with that same guidance counselor about where they’re going to go to college. So what’s the guidance counselor going to do? Like, be like, “Hey, it’s not nice the way you keep, you know, completely humiliating that other kid.” They’d be like, “Oh, you know me. Like, that’s just the – we’re just teasing. Like, he’s in on it. He’s in on it.” You know, like, kids can explain that kind of stuff away so easy. Um…
Paul: So what was, what was your home life like growing up?
Dan: Um, well, my parents got divorced when I was, I think, eight or so. Uh, and then my dad got remarried about a year later. My mom got remarried, I think, like, four or five years later.
Paul: Did – did that kind of, when they got divorced, did that kind of – did, did the anxiety ratchet up a notch, or, or were you kind of an anxious kid before that?
Dan: I was an anxious kid before that for sure. Um, and both my parents are anxious people, so I – I think genetically, I’m pre-disposed to internalize too much. Uh, but I don’t think there was anything happening at home. Like – and like, my step-parents are crazy cool. Uh, my stepdad passed away, but, like, he was, like, very, uh, very good at – ‘cause he was, he was living, it was my mom and him who were at the high school. Uh, uh, like, I lived out of their basement [laughs] when I went to high school. And, and they were very understanding about my issues. But they didn’t necessarily know what to do with it, because I didn’t know what to do. I mean, I –
Paul: Right.
Dan: I didn’t know how to even really tell other people about my problems. And what was nice about this retreat thing was, like, I could take control of it. I could, there were workshops and stuff. And unless I was in immediate danger, nobody had to do anything about it. Like, I got to walk away from it and make whatever I wanted.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Out of it. Which was another thing I was scared of. Like, I had a friend who was suicidal, and I had to turn her in, because she was so suicidal that, like, it was probably going to happen. Uh, and I was always scared if I told someone else about what was going on in my head, they would take all the control away from me. And I’m a total control freak. Like, I didn’t want anybody actually getting into my head and trying to rearrange the furniture.
Paul: You thought it would only make it worse.
Dan: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Paul: Which, to me, is one of the things that makes mental illness so often a – so often hard to, hard to deal with, is our initial instinct when we’re trapped in our head and we’re feeling that sense of doom, um, is that, “oh, we, we can’t let this out. We can't let anybody else know.” And yet that’s the, that’s the very thing. You know? That’s the light we need to –
Dan: Yeah.
Paul: We need to go to, but it’s so scary. If you’ve never had a positive experience with letting somebody see who you truly are, what you’re truly afraid of, what you’re going through, and how much you’re hurting, um, it’s – you’re just, you’re just stuck with that toxicity inside you, and it, and it just – it’s so corrosive.
Dan: Yeah, and I think, um, the hardest thing for me was, I was just self-aware enough where I could look at other needy people, like, emotionally, sort of, like, uh, desperate people, and go, “Ah, I wouldn’t hang out with those people.” Like, I would – “I don’t like hearing about their problems.” You know? And so then to turn back on myself and be like, “Well, I have more” –
Paul: This was at the camp, or just in general?
Dan: In general. Like, as far back as I can remember, just looking at people who were constantly, uh, you know, unloading, and just going, “I – “
Paul: “I can’t do that.”
Dan: “I don’t want to be that guy. Like, that’s horrible. Like, I would hate to be known as the needy guy. Like, that’s awful.” But –
Paul: So you’d rather – you would rather have been beat up than be considered needy?
Dan: No. Um, no. Um, but –
Paul: But they were both equally repellent?
Dan: Yeah. Like, and – and I think having experienced a lot of both physical and emotional bullying, I can say the two are very different to me. I don’t know what it’s like for other people, but the physical abuse always felt like you could be your own private James Bond and avoid it. Like, there were all sorts of little, uh, navigational games you could play at school, going from class to class, or, like, so, to avoid the beat-downs.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Um –
Paul: How to not draw attention to yourself.
Dan: Yeah. And honestly, like –
Paul: How to slink through a crowd.
Dan: Yeah. And, and so – absolutely. It would affect you emotionally, without a doubt, and psychologically, where, like, then you would slip up and you would get beat up and they would figure out your hiding spot [laughs] and they’re, like, you’re – pow. And then you would, and then I would beat myself up, and then be like, “Aagh, like, how, how could you screw this up, Telfer? Like, how did you let them find you?” But, uh, uh, for the most part, yeah. Like, it was about avoiding and just learning –
Paul: Do you have any tips for, for how to –
Dan: Always run away.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: [laughs] If you ever have the option between curling up in a ball and running away, run away. Uh, that’s, that’s the number-one thing. Uh, and never, never go, uh, in a bathroom during class. [laughs] Like, like, if you can just hold it –
Paul: ‘Cause then you’re, ‘cause then you’re trapped?
Dan: Yes! Uh, because there – there are people, especially in a big school, who go to the bathroom during class just to see if there’s someone they can…
Paul: Really?
Dan:…smack around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lot of weak-bladdered nerds in the bathroom during class.
[both laugh]
Dan: Uh…
Paul: I had no idea.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul: Any, any other, uh, tips you can think of?
Dan: Sure! Um, all – if you’re, if you’re using your locker, always keep your arms up, uh, like, like, uh, like your forearms, your elbows bent.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And have, have, have your muscles kind of tense so if they try to slam the locker door in your face, it’ll just bounce off. Uh, always be aware of, uh, whether your hips are both facing, uh, a danger person, because you will get kicked in the nuts so easily if you’re a dude.
Paul: Wow.
Dan: Uh, don’t grow long hair if you’re a guy. Uh. [laughs]
Paul: Oh, my God.
Dan: Uh, ‘cause they’ll put gum in it if they don’t just try to rip it out. Um, there’s a temptation to use a stall to piss, uh, as opposed to a urinal, because you’re afraid someone will piss on you or something. But it’s better to get pissed on than get trapped in a stall by, uh, undesirable. ‘Cause then they’ll just shove your head in the toilet or something like that.
Paul: You’ve had that done to you?
Dan: Oh, sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So – [laughs]. You need some handy tips, I’ve got plenty of ‘em.
Paul: Wow.
Dan: And so, like, and but, like, that was, that was, and that sound sort of silly or maybe even too dramatic, but like, that was, like what I would think about all day. Like, “Is this a good time to go to the bathroom? How are, how are my, how are my hips? Like, am I – do I need to turn my hips to the side right now, or – “
Paul: So do you, are you kind of hyper-vigilant today?
Dan: Sure. And, like, I have – I have bits about it in my stand-up, about how many times I’ve almost been mugged, uh, and managed to run away.
Paul: Because you’re – you’re –
Dan: I feel like a target. I mean, I’m – I, I’m a spaz. I mean, like, I think people can sense it. And that’s actually something, I think, I still deal with when I go on stage, to a weird extent, where I know I sort of put off a vibe with my posture and my personality where, like, you can smell when I get on stage if I’m someone you want to bully. Like, I’ve done, like, terrifying casino gigs, and I’ve been convinced where [laughs] –
Paul: So you think you get more hecklers than the average person?
Dan: Not necessarily. But I think, you know, if you think about who your typical heckler is, if they’re a bully type, I’m extremely attractive to them.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Um, because I think I give off a vibe of, like, fresh meat.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: For sure. Especially now that I’m a confident adult, um, and I don’t care if I give off that vibe, and that can be fun, but yeah, if it’s an audience full of those people, I – that show will not possibly go well.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Unless I do my entire set joking just about how I’m a sissy and nothing else, and no deviations and no flights of fancy, just direct, like, “Can you believe this sissy was allowed in front of you tonight?” Like, those – I’ve had so many shows where I’ve just had to go, like, “Wow, uh, this isn’t my crowd. Um, no planned material. Uh, I’ll try not to get beat up.” Like, like, yeah. Like, I’ve had death threats from the audience where I’m just like, “I have to just cope. [laughs] Like, I have to just” – and I put myself in those situations. Like, that’s, that’s something I’ll totally, like, I’ve definitely taken gigs where I know this won’t go well.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: As a challenge to myself.
Paul: So do you feel like all, all of the – you know, I believe that all the stuff that we experience, especially when we’re growing up, kind of lays unconscious messages into us that if – if we don’t actively try to disarm them, um, through working on ourselves or having positive experiences, or something that kind of deprograms those negative messages, that they can just lay in us for the rest of our lives. What you – what messages, if any, do you, do you feel like are still kind of in there fucking with you? Like, what are, what are some common, uh –
Dan: That’s an awesome question.
Paul: – frequent negative thoughts you have towards yourself?
Dan: Um, it’s hard to, it’s hard, ‘cause so, so often I go to physical ones, which are impossible and I think that might be why. Like, I think I, I constantly pick apart how overweight I am or how bad my posture is, or, like –
Paul: You think you’re overweight?
Dan: A little bit, yeah. But I know I am. Not much. I mean, it might not look like it, but I –
Paul: You don’t look like it at all.
Dan: But, like, I obsess about it, because that, I think, is, uh, that is both something that I could maybe fix if I wanted to and something that is easily broken down, uh. Not that I will do anything about it, but that’s also, too, like, maybe I feed into that shame pretty easily.
Paul: Right.
Dan: Um, but – because, that might also be because, like, I try to be very, very direct with my psychological issues, um. I think, I think if I’ve, if I’ve, uh, if I’ve got anything I’ve really taken away, it’s like, you cannot, like, play too many psychological games with yourself. I, uh, I had the, I had the misfortune of, um , when my dad got remarried, um, it, again, was, like, when I was eight years old, uh, I got new stepbrothers there, and when I was twenty-one, uh, one of my stepbrothers committed suicide.
Paul: Oh, no.
Dan: And he did it while, uh, he was in the military.
Paul: Uh-huh.
Dan: And – so we could never quite figure out what happened. We’ve gotten some information out. But the, the horrible secrecy of how the government will hide the fact so they’re not held liable in a suicide really made me realize how bad it is to bury that stuff about yourself, because it can really get lost. Like, you know, we’re lucky as performers, uh, that we get an outlet. Like, our thoughts and our experiences can be recorded somehow. Uh, there are so many people where, if they fall out of the loop, you’ll never find out what’s happening to them. Like, there, there are not a lot of people who leave suicide notes, and if my brother did, I’ll never know, probably. Uh, so – and I’m not sure I want to know. It’s – it – it – but it, but I think I’ve, I’ve had to, like, go, like, if I’ve ever had a suicidal thought, like, that is no longer an option. Like, like I really have to keep in mind how –
Paul: Have you been – have you been suicidal?
Dan: Oh, when I was a teenager, absolutely, but, um…
Paul: Who, who wouldn’t be? Having to –
Dan: …yeah.
Paul: – endure what you endured?
Dan: Well, I, I think, I think, though, even then before I had, uh, a bad experience with my, my, my stepbrother, that sort of scared me away from the, the, uh, the temptation, like, I, I knew I could escape this at some point. Like, if there’s any coping skill I can tell people, who – like, if there’s anyone getting bullied who’s, like, listening to this or something, this – eh, like, like, there’s a, there’s this great saying within a lot of the geek and nerd and dork communities, of just, like, “Guess what? When you turn eighteen, you run the world.”
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: “Like, like, they’ll tell you when you’re in school that you’re the outcast, but guess what? Um, nerds kind of run everything now.”
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: “Like, do you want a website? Guess what, jerk, you have to deal with a nerd.” Like –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And, and, uh, and, uh, I kind of could tell, like, from watching snippets of, uh, like, either Monty Python or something, like, there’s no way – like, those are people. Like, those aren’t aliens, you know, from another planet on this show. Like, those are people who got somehow to live a life that brought them together to make this comedy show. Like, if that is possible, it can’t possibly be misery forever. There are paths out of this.
Paul: You, you could sense their outsider status.
Dan: Totally. And, and, because the – the jokes I didn’t get, you still, when you’re a kid, and I think this is why so many outcasts turn to comedy when they’re really young, it’s like, you can totally understand irony that even adults don’t understand.
Paul: Uh-huh.
Dan: There might be a dick joke that kids don’t understand, but I think an outcast kid will sense, uh, a status game in a sketch, say?
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Where, like, it’s all about the outcast coming out on top, that an adult will just be like, “Oh, that’s just funny, there was a dead parrot or something.” But, like a kid will go, like, “Yeah, but there was death in that sketch and they got away with it.” Like, like, you’ll see weird little games, um, that, that, uh, I think are really inspiring. I mean, like, like, I – I think dark humor is so valuable to kids.
Paul: Oh, my God, you –
Dan: That is, like, like, that is something that drives me crazy, like, as a parent, like – there, there are so many reasons why kids need dark humor. Because they don’t know what the hell’s going on [laughs]. Like, they, they don’t know why death exists. To see somebody make light of it is such a relief. Like, “Oh, thank God.” Like, like…
Paul: Oh, yeah.
Dan: …like, with that first moment you realize, uh, we are all, uh, cursed with knowledge that we’ll eventually be turned into oblivion when we die. It’s like. “Oh. Aaaaaagghh!”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: Like, like the first time your pet dies. It’s like, “Oh, fuck!” Um, uh, that, that there’s any comedy about that, it’s just, like, so amazing. It’s just such a relief.
Paul: I remember the first time I heard George Carlin, uh, making fun of the Catholic Church, was such a relief to me, because, uh, Catholicism, you know, love it or hate it, is an intense religion. And –
Dan: Yes.
Paul: – for a second-grader, all of a sudden to talk about God, you know, smacking you down, and you’re going to burn in hell forever, that’s heavy shit for a second-grader to, to be learning. And somebody put on a George Carlin album when I was in, like, second or third grade. And all of a sudden he was questioning this power that they had.
Dan: Yeah.
Paul: And that was a huge kind of steam releaser for me, because I went –
Dan: Oh, hell, yeah.
Paul: “Oh. Wow. Maybe everything they’re saying isn’t going to come true. Maybe I’m” –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – “not a horrible little kid, and I’m not going to burn in hell.”
Dan: Yeah. And, and I remember being in theology class, uh, in high school, uh, before I transferred to a public high school, and, uh, having the teacher just go through all the reasons why it’s, like, “yeah, there’s other religions, but, like, Christianity is definitely the one,” and, like, ugh, and just going over in my head, like, the entire script of The Life of Brian, and just being like, “Has he never seen a movie?”
Paul: Right.
Dan: “Like, what is happening right now?” Um, and yeah, I, uh, but I mean, that’s a whole other can of worms, how I’ve been, like, an atheist since I’ve been, like, six years old.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: But, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I, I, uh, I think, I think a lot of kids question that stuff way earlier than adults give them credit for. And there’s authors –
Paul: Yeah. “Where’s, where’s God when I’m getting my head dunked in a toilet?”
Dan: Yeah.
Paul: “And I’m, and I’m getting this and I’m getting that?” I’m sure it’s easy to believe in God when you’re the most popular kid and you’ve got all the right clothes.
Dan: Definitely. And, and, and the pressure to still believe in it, where people are like, like, “Yeah, like, you’re going through some rough, but just know Jesus loves you.” It’s just, like, well, “what are, like –
Paul: “How is Jesus showing his love for me?”
Dan: Yeah, like, “What a shitty friend! What a shitty friend, that he’s passively waiting for me to learn my lesson as I’m pummeled.” Like –
Paul: Right.
Dan: – like, I, uh, I’m like, “Okay, Jesus, I get it. You went through the, you had a spear stuck in your side. Uh, duh, duh.” Like, I’ve just – I, I, I definitely, early on, was like, “Martyrdom just seems so pretentious to me. We all suffer.” Um, and that was, like, that was another big coping thing I learned in high school, was sort of the Buddhist philosophy of, uh, suffering is a part of life.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: That is unavoidable, and so you can’t, you can't get stuck thinking suffering is something we need to either eradicate or punish people for.
Paul: Right.
Dan: Like, suffering is – sorry. Like –
Paul: Yeah, it’s part of life.
Dan: [laughs] You’re – yeah, we, like –
Paul: But once you accept it, the suffering becomes less intense.
Dan: Absolutely. Um –
Paul: Do you still consider yourself to be an atheist?
Dan: I do, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Yeah. But I, I, I, I definitely, because of the pain I’ve been through in my life, do not judge or look down on anybody who – who if I – I think I’m genetically predisposed toward atheism. Like, I, I find no comfort in the idea of a higher power, because I find everything humbling. Like, [laughs], like –
Paul: Right.
Dan: And I find absolute beauty in science. Like, I, I think, if you look at any outer-space photography, you can go, like, “Oh, like, that nebula looks like a dragon. That’s pretty cool.” Or you can realize, like, that nebula is made of radiation that, if you got within a light-year of it, would disintegrate you.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And yet we are somehow allowed to view it. Like, that to me is, like, the gift of being alive, of, like, being able to reflect on all this stuff.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Uh, and that is so – it’s like, at once humbling and exciting. Um, and I, I, I don’t think that’s exciting for everybody. I think, you know, definitely a part of me being a stand-up comedian has been getting on stage talking about nerdy shit and completely losing people.
Paul: Right.
Dan: Like, having them go, “What the fuck is this guy talking about?” Like [laughs] –
Paul: But, but, but when you find your crowd on a given night and they connect to that, that – that must feel…
Dan: Oh, my God.
Paul: …exhilarating.
Dan: Oh, my God. And that, and that is why –
Paul: Talk, talk about that.
Dan: I would love to. I mean, I have a bit that it took me a long time to put together, and it doesn’t go over well for everybody, uh, that is about, uh, an astronomer named, uh, Tico or Tycho Brahe, who was completely insane. Um, he discovered supernovas without aid of telescopes, just looking at the sky, analyzing, like –
Paul: What?
Dan: – shadows and stuff –
Paul: What?
Dan: – and just realizing that stars can explode. Yeah! And right there, that is amazing, but what I love about this guy –
Paul: Even with his head in a toilet, he could still see the –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – that the stars were exploding?
Dan: [laughs] Yeah, like, he – he, but –
Paul: It was actually in a chamber pot.
Dan: Yeah, [laughs] exactly. Well, it was –
Paul: His head was stuck in a chamber pot.
Dan: Look, it was just a hole cut in a piece of wood.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Um, yeah. Empathy is everything, I think. Finding a way, finding a way to live in this, this world without – just, nihilism. Like, that is – that’s –
Paul: Mm-hmm. That, that’s a miracle. That’s miracles.
Dan: That’s everything.
Paul: Do you, are you able to have empathy for yourself, uh, now, as an adult, or do you still feel like, uh, you kick yourself pretty hard?
Dan: Uh, you may have hit the nail on the head. Like, I, I, I think empathy for myself is, uh, maybe even a sentence I’ve never put together. [laughs] Like –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Yeah, yeah. Like, I definitely try to remind myself of all those times people have been kind to me, uh, but I also feel like, in a lot of ways, I have the deck stacked against me. I don’t come from money. I don’t have a marketable skill that has, that has taken off yet –
Paul: Hmm.
Dan: – to completely make me successful in, uh, in a financial way. So, like, I’m always like, “Ugh, like, what do I gotta do? What do I gotta improve? How can I be more productive?” And I’m always juggling a million things at once, and it’s a lot easier, I think, to rip myself to shreds, absolutely. Um, especially if I think I’ve got a fun little game going of how not to have, uh, suicidal depression. Um, where I’m like, “Oh, as long as I’m not suicidally depressed, I can just be a miserable human being.” Uh [laughs].
Paul: Do you get, do you get, do you get suicidal depression?
Dan: No, not anymore. And I think something happens to, um, when you have kids, where you, you, you know, even if you make the wrong choice or you delay it, you have to make the choice of, like, taking care of yourself and not having that be an option.
Paul: Hmm.
Dan: Obviously, that kind of thing is a lot harder for women with postpartum depression or people who aren’t good at facing their emotions. But I –
Paul: You feel like that door shut once you had kids.
Dan: Yeah. But around 2001 when, uh, my stepbrother committed suicide, and eight years before I had kids, uh, I was like, “no, it’s – that’s not, I can’t ever let my depression take me into thinking suicidally again.” It’s – I could see firsthand what it did to my parents, uh, my, my siblings, my, my extended family.
Paul: Were you close to him?
Dan: You know, I wasn’t. But, you know, he and I were the, were probably the most introverted. Like, I have a biological brother who I have a lot in common with, but I think he’s a lot more outgoing. Like, we listen to all the same music. We both look very nerdy. We both have glasses. We both listen to – like, we both, I think, have similar stage presences. He’s a slam poet.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Uh, but I think he’s way more outgoing than I am. And this stepbrother, like, he was the one I would talk to about Dungeons and Dragons and video games and all that stuff. So, uh, I just felt that part of me ripped right out, and I was like, “I can never” – you can’t, you just can’t do that to another person. I, I – I try to avoid saying it’s a selfish choice to commit suicide, but I do think it’s, uh, it’s so much more awful than people understand it to be when they’re making the decision. It’s –
Paul: So much you –
Dan: It’s not closure. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re sharing, you’re taking a private rift within yourself and setting off a bomb in other people. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s miserable.
Paul: You are, and I think, if you aren’t expressing yourself to other people and you aren’t letting them into your life and sharing your pain with them, you will never know that you’re setting a bomb off. Because you are still under the illusion that you’re this little island that doesn’t cause any ripples in other –
Dan: Which is –
Paul: – in other people’s lives, which is natural –
Dan: – so deluded.
Paul: Yeah, I, I don’t know of anybody whose suicide hasn’t, uh, um, devastated other people. Uh, one of the things I, I asked you, uh, before we, uh, got together to do this was, um, any, uh, any snapshots from your life that were especially painful or embarrassing or kind of transformative? Are, are there any moments from your life that you, you feel like, kind of stand out as especially painful, embarrassing, or transformative?
Dan: Hmm…
Paul: I mean, certainly, you know, the stuff that you shared –
Dan: Yeah, that was a tough one.
Paul: – the stuff you shared about, uh, you know, getting picked on in, in grade school and high school.
Dan: Yeah, I mean, honestly, a lot of it, it’s like, it comes down to ways I have tried to impress people and failed.
Paul: Can you give me some of those?
Dan: Uh…
Paul: Which I love, because I can so, so relate to that. You know? I need to be, uh, extra-special here. I need to be memorable. And then you wind up being memorable for exactly the wrong reason.
Dan: Yeah. That is, I think, that was the curse of my late teens, when I, when I was, uh, trying to finally become a little more outgoing and engage people was, I have a really dark sense of humor, but I have a really hard time sometimes, like, figuring out how other people also find dark humor to be funny. Like, I think a good example, because it’s so pathetic.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And it makes no sense, um, it’s not dramatic at all. So, but, uh – I hung out with this circle of friends who were very self-hating, and very, like, dorky, um, but really smart and very funny. And I remember we went, I think, to play video games at one of their houses. We had, um, this video game called, uh, it was either the original Warcraft – not World of Warcraft – or it was Duke Nukem, and, like, we had this computer network set up. And every time we would play those games, uh, I would get, I just don’t know how to be competitive. I still don’t. So I would get really worked up, and just sort of like, “Aah, fuck it, oh, my God!” And just humiliate myself every time. Uh, just because I wasn’t, I was too spazzy to, to get good and focus.
Paul: Uh-huh.
Dan: And way too wound up for, uh, even other nerds, where I would, they were just like, “Why is he so spazzy?” And I remember, this –
Paul: “He’s embarrassing the entire dungeon.”
Dan: Yeah. And again, this is also, like, post-eighteen. Like, this is when a lot of people are really getting laid and stuff.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Uh, [laughs], like, this is when people are, like, getting into bars with fake IDs.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: It was not, not what I was doing. Um, but I was al – I was always pushing things to try to be, to try to be competitive. I was always experimenting with, “How do I, how can I be competitive with these dudes and fit in?” And it never worked, because my idea of competitive was just to push the darkness envelope, and that was so not what they were going for. They were just trying to be funny, and have a twinge of dark to them, that they were always like, “What did I do?” Um, and I kept having these ideas that I would pull pranks on my friends, um, and I was really bad – and I still am really bad at pranks. Like, I just don’t really get –
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: – the mechanics of a prank. But I kept thinking, like, “That’ll be my in. Like, it’ll be this amazing moment of surprise.”
Paul: “I’ll be the prank guy.”
Dan: Yeah. “I’ll be the prank guy.” Oh, God. And it was so bad. Again, everything before thirty just humiliates me. But, like, I remember one time, uh, we’d all just been playing Duke Nuke or, or, or War craft, and I lost, I’m sure. I was really bad. Uh, and I spazzed out. And we were waiting for one of my friends to walk a couple blocks away, get the car, and pick us all up. And I had stolen from a Denny’s a bottle of hot sauce, um, because I wanted to use it at home and was too embarrassed to ask my parents to buy hot sauce at the grocery store. It was, like, literally that introverted and stupid.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And I thought, “Wouldn’t it be funny if I poured it on my friend’s hair? Like, if I just took” – I mean, this is my idea of a prank. Like, there’s just no mechanics to this prank at all. Like, there’s no –
Paul: There’s no surprise to it.
Dan: No. And it – it’s –
Paul: It’s just aggressive, inappropriate…
Dan: Yes! Bordering on sociopath, too.
Paul: Yes!
Dan: Because it’s like, could cause physical pain.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: But I didn’t process that. I was just, like, “Ah, it’ll burn his scalp or something!” And I snuck up behind him and I poured it, and I’m just like, I’m red-faced, like, like, from the hilarity that I know is about to ensue. Don’t know what it’s going to be like. And, and then sure enough, my friend goes, “What the fuck are you doing? Ah, fuck.” And it, he’s like, “Ah, my fuckin’ scalp just – ugh, this sucks. What did you fuckin’ do, Telfer?” And, and then it was like the whole night was ruined, because it never got so bad that he was, like, blinded or something, but his sweat kind of mixed in.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And it got in his eyes, like, a little bit.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Like, a tiny bit. And his scalp burned really bad.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: That he was just like – everyone was like, “Why did you do” – like, it was really weird.
Paul: And then – so nobody laughed. There wasn’t, like –
Dan: Nobody!
Paul: – the big Jackass, “Ah, you got him!”
Dan: But I was so angry that nobody was laughing. Like, I was like, “Why won’t you just let me have this moment of being the prankster dude? Like, why won’t you just buy it?” But, yeah, it was, it was like, it was shocking to me. It was just, like, fuck.
Paul: But, but it was, like, out of nowhere, because there was nothing, there wasn’t, like, a continuum of pranks that you were continuing. It was, like, your, you, you were just, it was coming out of nowhere.
Dan: Just – and that was what, that was, like, everything I did. Like, I wasn’t necessarily trying to be a prankster all the time, but I was always trying to be the guy who was, like, explosively getting the last word. And it would be funny to my friends sometimes, because I would humiliate myself just enough where they were, like, shocked by it.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: But I was so bad at being shocking. Like, I was so bad at being, like –
Paul: And the, and the irony is, the one time you deserved to have your ass kicked, you didn’t have your ass kicked. [laughs]
Dan: Well, and I think part of me knew [clears throat] that I was dealing with other nerds and, like, whatever I did wouldn't get my ass beat, uh, they definitely were weird about hanging out with me for a couple weeks. It definitely, it came back into normalcy after a while, but I was almost, like, I was almost just being that big of a dick, of just like, “I will take advantage of my friends being nerds, and, like, none” –
Paul: Do you think, do you think it was like, you, maybe, trying to expel a little bit of that bully energy that you’d absorbed –
Dan: Oh, absolutely.
Paul: – all of those years?
Dan: Absolutely. I remember when I was a kid – oh, here’s another really shameful snapshot for you. Um, I, my parents were always trying to give me an outlet for my spazness and put me in sports, which – if, I mean, if they had known then what they know now, like, I would never –
Paul: That, that’s just a magnifying glass for the, for the, the –
Dan: Yeah. Oh, God. And I was bad. I was – the main reason I was bad is, going back to sort of the beginning of the podcast, with, like, how bad my memory is?
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: I couldn’t remember the rules to fucking anything. Or, like, how to position your body for tennis, or, like –
Paul: Please, please don’t tell me you ran up the third base line.
Dan: No.
Paul. And, and you were hitting the ball. [laughs]
Dan: Uh, almost as bad. I scored a point for the other team in, uh, soccer, in community…
Paul: You kicked it into your own goal?
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul: That’s pretty bad.
Dan: Uh, but I, but I was – but to tie that into, uh, me sort of like lashing out and expelling bully energy, that was happening, I think, uh, at a, at a peak in my first bullying experiences in school. Um, pre-fifth grade, where all of a sudden I hit this point in, uh, second, third grade, where people were like, “Oh, he hangs out with that kid Matt who’s got the hormone problem. Like, he’s a piece of shit. Let’s fuck with this guy.” And I was in soccer, and so I was like, “This soccer circle’s a different circle. What if I was like” – ‘cause I was, I was a pretty big kid. I was like, “What if I’m the asshole in soccer?” And so, like, every time there was a break, or like, the coach was pulling only half the team aside, I would grab other players by the wrist and whip ‘em around and just, like, throw them and stuff. Just, like, a complete piece of shit. Like, mindless bullying.
Paul: Yeah, yeah.
Dan: Where, like, I would just be, like, “Hey, Steve, come here.” He’d be, like, “Hey, what’s going on, Dan?” “Foom, foom!” “Aah!” And – “What did you do that for? [crying].” Uh, and what, I think the last time I did that, I was, uh, I was like, it was right, like a, like a month or so after the hot sauce incident.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: I didn’t do it all the time. Uh, but I still, even though I was like, eighteen, nineteen years old, didn’t understand how big I was, and I had been beat up so much, uh, that there was this guy who I pushed grocery carts with at a grocery store, who was always being, like, a hotshot badass grocery-cart-pusher, which is a joke.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: But I tripped him.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: With this, like, hapkido move I’d seen, like, done by, like, a friend, like, forever ago. And he – it, like, fucked up his arm. Like, where he almost broke it. Like, he landed on a nerve, and he was just, like, “Ah, Telfer, what the fuck?” And he was the kind of guy who was, like, always shoving me and stuff.
Paul: Uh-huh.
Dan: So I was just like, “Wha – ahh!” And, uh, yeah, I had no physical, even remote, like –
Paul: Just constant backfiring of your attempts, your attempts to male-bond.
Dan: Yeah. That’s, like, and my biggest, my biggest failures have been attempts to male-bond. Like, I, I, I, I don’t get other dudes very well. I always have a harder time getting to know guys. I just, I’m such a weirdo. Like, I, it’s always, it’s always a weird thing where if I’m in a comedy club green room, or, or anywhere, just, like, “How do I relate to people who like sports? I, I, I don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about right now.”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: “Like, I – this is horrible. Like, I, I don’t know.”
Paul: And people, and people can sense sometimes when you’re, when you are trying to, uh, be in on something that, that isn’t natural. As opposed to just kind of hanging and, and accepting the fact that you’re maybe on the fringe of it. ‘Cause I’ve been that guy that tries to, you know, it’s a group of people and everybody knows each other really well, but nobody knows me, and I start to panic ‘cause I feel like I’m left out and I’m forgettable. And so then I try to inject myself into it too much and try to be too, like, I’m everybody’s friend. And, and you just, you just hate yourself.
Dan: Yeah.
Paul: ‘Cause you just, you sense that desperate awkwardness, and it’s so, um…
Dan: Yeah. The only thing I’ve ever been diagnosed with mentally is, uh, social anxiety disorder.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Uh, I think it was wrong, because I think I have, I think I can cope with that.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Like, I think part of me going into my thirties was figuring that out, and I think that’s true for a lot of people. Uh, I definitely have something else going on I should get figured out someday.
Paul: Do you, do you have, uh, impulse control issues?
Dan: Yeah. Definitely. I mean, like, I – and it’s, it’s only small stuff. Um, like, I always am wanting to touch things, uh, that are mine repeatedly, like –
Paul: Really?
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if I think something, um, will – like, it brings me comfort to check the time every ninety seconds or so.
Paul: Really?
Dan: Yes.
Paul: And how many times in a row will you do that?
Dan: Uh, non-stop. Sometimes if I can’t sleep, I’ll, like, get up and check my cell phone to see what time it is, even if there’s, like, an alarm clock in the room [laughs].
Paul: So, like, how many times in a row? Like, for an hour, two hours?
Dan: It – there’s – no, it doesn’t stop. Like, the just – constant.
Paul: Ten hours?
Dan: Ten hours implies that there’s – again, I’m doing this in my sleep, like, from the previous day, and then I continue the next day, so.
Paul: Really?
Dan: Yeah. So I have weird – like, that kind of impulse control, for sure.
Paul: Would, would that be considered OCD?
Dan: Uh, it very well could be. I think I exhibit a lot of symptoms of OCD. Like, I – I – uh, I, like, uh, and I talked to you before we started recording about, like, drinking. Like, yeah, like, if I have one beer –
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: I have all the – it, it’s weird. Like, if I have a choice to have a beer or not have a beer, uh, I feel like I can be very rational about it. But once I have one beer, it’s like all of a sudden electricity is going to a string of Christmas lights that are all screaming, “You should have another beer.”
Paul: Oh, boy.
Dan: And – exactly. Like, I don’t think –
Paul: Oh, boy.
Dan: I don’t think, uh, it’s ever been a problem. I’ve definitely gotten hammered a couple of times where I’ve been like, “This is a dumb time to get hammered.” And the next day I’ll just be humiliated. But I don’t – I’ve been lucky where I have never been told while I was hammered I did something out of control, or, or –
Paul: Right.
Dan: – or angry. Like, I’m a very happy drunk, so, like, I’ve been –
Paul: Right.
Dan: – pretty lucky. Um, but, yeah. Like – I – there’s all sorts of things where, like, I hear, like, “Oh, a lot of people who have OCD, when they get drunk, it’s like an instant desire to repeat the process over and over and over and over and over every day.” Uh, and like the thing with my phone, or like, uh, every time I pass a bush, I want to pull a leaf off of it. Every time I see a pine tree, I want to pull a needle off of it. And it’s just bushes and pine trees. It’s not, like, anything else.
Paul: And do you give in to that?
Dan: Not other trees – hmm?
Paul: Do you give in to that impulse to do that, or is it just, you think it?
Dan: If I feel like I am managing it and I have control over the impulse system, I will totally just be like, “I’ll fuckin’ grab a leaf, whatever.”
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: It’s a fun little game. Um, if I feel like it’s not intruding on me looking like a normal person, then yeah, I’ll totally, whatever. Uh, because I feel like I’m smart enough to know what a normal, functioning person is and what would be creepy. Like, I, I feel like I have enough ways I’m creepy by nature that I know what not to do to look creepy via OCD, so –
Paul: You’ve got enough on your creep plate.
Dan: Yeah [laughs]. Yeah, I’ve already, like, like, like, I – I already, like, go, go every day, like, remembering all the nicknames I got as a kid for being physically weird-looking. Like, I – I don’t –
Paul: What were some of the nicknames?
Dan: Ugh. “Lurch” was a big one.
Paul: Uh-huh.
Dan: Uh, oh, God, that’s the only one I can remember right now. “Lurch” was the big one when I was in junior high, for sure.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Uh, and then it just sort of became, “Faggot,” I think, in high school. [laughs]
Paul: The catch-all. That’s the high-school catch-all.
Dan: It’s so easy. It’s, it’s, it’s the laziest of insults, I think.
Paul: Yeah, yeah, it really is.
Dan: Because it implies that, like, you know, a lot of people, it implies that there’s a choice.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Which is scary to me. The idea that, like, the way you carry yourself was a deliberate choice, and that ties into homosexuality being a choice. Like, that is like, part of what I resent the most about society [laughs].
Paul: Well, I – and, and I think the reason why it’s the catch-all is because, to a teenage boy, you’re going to call somebody the name that you fear the most that you might be. And I think all teenage boys are afraid that they’re gay. Because everybody has gay thoughts, and, um, if you just have a flickering gay thought as a, as a teenage boy, you know, I thought, “Oh, my God, because, you know, I pictured what that guy looks like with his clothes off, that must mean” –
Dan: Oh, yeah.
Paul: “I’m gay.” You know? And I remember the, the funniest thing, the place I first got comfort from realizing other people occasionally think those thoughts was, uh, there was something in a National Lampoon magazine, and one of the things it said was, “No, you are not gay.” And I was like, “Oh.”
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: “Other people worry.”
Dan: Yeah.
Paul: Get that. And, uh –
Dan: Such a relief, oh, my goodness. And that’s totally, like, how comedy saves people, right there.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. And I think the first, the first time I went to therapy, like, in my twenties, I was like, “You know, and I worry that I’m, you know, that I might be gay.” And, and my therapist was like, “Well, you know, do you ever sexually fantasize about, you know, men at length?” And I was like, “No.” She’s like, “Would you, do you ever think about, you know, another man while you’re masturbating?” And I was like, “No.” She’s like, “Well, then, you’re not gay.” I was like, “Oh, okay.”
[both laugh]
Paul: I put it to rest. But, you know, I think teenage boys, uh – and, and I think everybody’s sexuality is on a continuum, from –
Dan: Absolutely.
Paul: You know, totally heterosexual to, you know, strictly homosexual.
Dan: I completely agree with that, yeah, yeah.
Paul: And, you know, that’s gotta, that’s gotta fuck with – anybody who’s somewhere in between there, and I think we’re all somewhere in between there.
Dan: Well, I think, I think I got lucky. And I, and I definitely don’t want to sound like I’m preaching, but I think I’m lucky in that I think my atheism really helped with that, where I didn’t have much anxiety about whether I was gay.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: Because I was getting beat up, and I was called a fag before I knew what being gay was. And there was that moment I had when I was a little kid of, like, “There’s nobody really watching what I do morally. That’s up, that’s on me. Like, I’ve seen other people act shitty and never pay for it.”
Paul: Right.
Dan: “There – there’s no use in me thinking they’ll pay for it later.” So, uh, I remember when, I had definitely hit a crossroads, and it did give me some anxiety of just, like, “Is it true? Like, have I been this whole time this person who wants to have sex with guys?”
Paul: Right.
Dan: But I let go of it pretty – like, I don’t think it was a major, scarring event for me, ‘cause I, I wanted to be friends with gay people. Like, I was, I was drawn to them as fellow outcasts, and, and…
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: …and, um, my best friend in high school, who I turned in for being suicidal, was bisexual, and, like, I – I, I felt like it was a big relief, where the same way that I felt like there wasn’t a God judging me, there was nothing – like, like, it was more important I was, I was just aware of what I was attracted to than whether it be one way or the no – like, I, I felt like if I had turned out gay, like, if I had started going through puberty and realized who I was attracted to and it was men, it would have been kind of a relief.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: [laughs] It would have answered what everyone had been hammering into my head of why I was wrong, uh, socially. But when it turned out that, no, I kind of, if I think about naked dudes, it doesn’t really excite me the way naked women excites me. When I sort of hit that crossing, I’m like, “Ah, fuck. So what is my deal?” Like, I didn’t know. I still didn’t – it caused me more anxiety that I wasn’t gay, I think. Like, I think it was how –
Paul: Right. That’s funny, that makes sense though.
Dan: I was like, “Ugh! But I’m so weird! Why can’t I be gay?”
Paul: Do you embrace – are you able to embrace your weirdness snow?
Dan: Oh, totally. Stand-up, I mean, is, has been really, really wonderful for that. I think I, I still grapple for it –
Paul: It’s the most im –
Dan: – for a long time.
Paul: The most important thing in the world, as a stand-up, is to be different.
Dan: Yeah. Uh, I, I, or, you know, it’s, it thrives on being an outcast. I, I –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: I, uh, writing and performing in general has been a good outlet. Like, I, I, I, I, I hope everybody who ever feels like an outcast finds some kind of creative outlet, ‘cause I think having a creative outlet is much more important than having a left-brain procedural outlet. I think that can really hurt you.
Paul: Can, can you be more specific?
Dan: I think, uh, I’ve met a lot of people –
Paul: Like, like, what would a left – uh, a non, uh, perform, or non-creative left-brain procedural, uh, outlet –
Dan: Like, you, like, you throw yourself into work that doesn’t inspire you. Like, to be creative means, like, inspirational, like, or, or building something. Uh, and I, I’ve seen, like –yeah. Like, I’ve seen fellow outcasts or, uh, fellow sensitive people, like, throw themselves completely into, you know, spreadsheets, or something like that and, and, um, it’s heartbreaking.
Paul: So an – analytical things, you mean.
Dan: Yeah. And it, I think that breeds depression, honestly. I think it –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: – I think it just means you’re, you don’t get to, you don’t get to engage your – I mean, like, like, and again, not to sound preachy, but I guess this is, this show is all about self-analyzing, so this is a big part of my life. But, like, as an atheist, I feel like we – if there’s any meaning to life, it’s like, yeah, we reflect on what we’re seeing. We, we, we build something in response to knowing we exist.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Like, knowing we exist is, like, that – is just that moment when mankind was first, like, “We are sentient. Like, we can actually process the world.” But, like, we’ve gotten to a point now where we can actually build shit and, like, create things and feel, and, and, like, fiction to me is amazing, and, and, and –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: – and worlds within worlds is so cathartic. Uh, I feel like that is the perfect outlet for anxious people.
Paul: Yeah. Anything else you want to, you want to add?
Dan: Oh, we didn’t get to have a fear-off.
Paul: You know what? I didn’t bring any fears. Um –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: So I, I apologize. Did you, did you have some fears prepared?
Dan: Oh, we can just do, like, one or something.
Paul: Okay. I’m sure I can, I’m sure I can Miles Davis, uh, some, some fears.
Dan: Well, here’s one, here’s one that I thought was really specific, uh, that I wonder if it happens to other people. I am always afraid that – especially ‘cause I put everything into music. Like, I love – I don’t play music, but, like, when I hear a song that really inspires me, like, I just get intensely attached to it.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: I have this horrible fear that some of my favorite songs, I will meet the artist and they will tell me it was all satire or –
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: – or sarcastic. Uh, that fuckin’ Randy Newman, like, “I Love L.A.,” thing, except –
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: – for my incredibly personal, emotional song, and they will tell me to my f – and it, it has to be this specific, or it’s not my fear.
Paul: Right.
Dan: They tell me to my face, “You’ve made a horrible mistake getting over ‘blank’ by listening to my music.”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: And just to feel like every bit of catharsis I’ve ever had just, like, get ripped out of my throat.
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: Of just, like…
Paul: That’s such a specific fear.
Dan: …like, like, I – I fear it so much, ‘cause there are songs where, I feel like they’re even shitty songs that I fell in love with, and I don’t even respect them anymore, but if the artist told me it was all a joke, like, like, I think that’s, that’s , that might be the bigger fear, of just, like, uh, that, like, something I invested everything in will all turn out to be a façade. Like –
Paul: Yes.
Dan: – like, someone else will have – it might be my control-freak-ness. Like –
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: – someone will take it away from me and, like, disown me of my ability to, to use it to cope and just be, like, “No, that’s not yours. That’s mine.” Or like, that’s – “The world owns that, and you’re not invited anymore.”
Paul: “You were wrong about it, so now it’s not valid.”
Dan: Yeah. Yes!
Paul: “Go back to feeling how you felt before.”
Dan: Exactly. Like, I really, like – oh. The idea of regression is terrifying for me.
Paul: You know what? I’ve got a perfect one for that. That Sarah McLachlan song, um, uh, you know – God, what, what was the – it was one of her first hits. Uh, “I want to, uh, uh, hold you down, kiss you so hard, take your breath away” –
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Paul: Do you remember that song? I used to think –
Dan: Might be called “Take My Breath Away” or something.
Paul: “Take My Breath Away.” I used to think that was the sexiest song, and then I found out that was a letter a guy sent to her that wanted to rape her.
Dan: Oh, no!
Paul: And I was like, “Oh, my God! I am so” – I felt so –
Dan: Oh, no!
Paul: I felt like the biggest –
Dan: Holy shit!
Paul: – perverted monster. Yeah. I was like, “How do I – how did I not know that?” ‘Cause all I heard was, “kiss you so hard, take your breath away.” I forgot, you know, I wasn’t paying attention to the, you know, “hold you down.” I was like, “Yeah, maybe I should have paid a little more attention. He’s holding her down.”
Dan: Does that still freak you out? Like, do you, do you ever –
Paul: Oh, when I hear it now, it just – I hear, “Paul is dumb, Paul is dumb.”
Dan: Oh, God. Do you ever, like, do you ever think back at, like, people you told you loved the song, and worry that they’ll find out what the song was –
Paul: My wife was the only one that I told it to.
Dan: Oh, okay.
Paul: And, and, yeah, so we laugh about it.
Dan: There’s no, like, old girlfriends –
Paul: No.
Dan: – who you, like, sang it to or something like that?
Paul: No.
Dan: ‘Cause that would be terrifying to me.
Paul: Yeah. Uh, and then there was a song that I heard, um, I heard a band do, um – God, what is the, the name of the band? Um, Death Cab for Cutie does that song about, um, “Follow You Into the Dark?”
Dan: Yes!
Paul: I heard them. I was –
Dan: Oh, no.
Paul: – I was at Bumbershoot, and I heard them, uh, I heard him do that song acoustically, and it just, I was just mesmerized by it. I was like, “That’s the most beautiful song that I’ve ever heard,” and I immediately thought of my wife, ‘cause I thought, you know, “Whenever we leave this earthly plane, you know, I – I want you to be there with me,” and, and so I told her, you know, “Here’s this song. When I heard it, it just made me think of you and how much, uh, I love you.” And she was – and she just looked at me after she listened to the song, and she was like – I don’t know, she didn’t think it was creepy –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – but she thought it was really, like, kind of gloomy, and –
Dan: Well, it is a very meaty song of, like –
Paul: It is, but –
Dan: – like, like, “Hey, there’s oblivion, and you and me” –
Paul: – yeah.
Dan: – “we’re going to just ride that oblivion.” Like, like, where it’s just like, “Wow, why did you go there?”
Paul: I think that’s kind of how she reacted was, it was a little bit like, “Oh, that’s pretty dark.” But she came around to it and, uh, and she, I think she, she likes it now, ‘cause it –
Dan: I remember the first time I played, uh, some of Tom Waits’ early stuff for my wife. I was like, “Isn’t this just, like” –
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: – “isn’t this just great?” And she was like, “This is fuckin’ corny. Like, what is this guy?”
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: “He sounds like a fake” – like, like –
Paul: Like he’s trying to be an old jazz guy.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, that happened like, that happened like ten years ago. But, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, where I was just like, “Oh, my God. Have you heard ‘The Heart of Saturday Night’? It’s just so” – and I put it on for her, and she was just like, “Really? Have you been to New York? Like, what the fuck are you talking about?”
Paul: [laughs]
Dan: “Like [laughs], this is fake music.” Yeah, like, that was devastating to me.
Paul: Ugh, that’s –
Dan: Just, like, that, like, ugh.
Paul: But, you know, as I, as I’ve said, uh, so many times on this podcast, if we don’t make those attempts to reach out to people – we’re, we’re gonna get slapped sometimes, slapped down. We’re gonna get rejected. Our ideas and our opinions are going to be made fun of sometimes. But more often than not I, I find that there’s something, there’s something in energy when I, when I reach out to somebody else and, and be a little vulnerable and put myself on the line and say, “Hey. Here’s something that I love,” or “Here’s something that makes me think of you.” Ninety percent of the time, I get such good energy from people.
Dan: Yes.
Paul: And that takes me out of that dark place.
Dan: Yeah, and I, and I think if you, if, if, you know, you’re an introvert, you can recognize, like, if you listen to any storytelling or, like, you know, if you watch any documentaries, or if you listen to This American Life or The Moth, like, where you just go – “Oh, holy” – like, the best stories are when an introvert builds something.
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Dan: To me. Like, somebody who has a hard time reaching out, uh, finds a way to get emotional distance from their problems and create something. And it’s so validating. Like, people don’t’ understand how incredibly valuable an individual journey is. They get so wrapped up in what the most popular or, or most lauded, uh, stories are. It’s, and I mean, so much of pop culture is just absolute, just, derivative shit.
Paul: That’s exactly the word I was reaching for. And that’s one of the things that I enjoy doing about this podcast so much, is, almost every single person I interview has a story that they don’t think is that interesting. And you begin to pull it out of them, and I – and I’m just amazed. I’m like, “How do” – you know, “How does that not seem like an important moment to you?” But because it’s our lives, we think that it’s not – because we’ve been living with it. We’re used to looking at that poster every day.
Dan: Well, we get sick of our own lives.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And then we’re like, struggling to find a reason not to be sick of it.
Paul: Right.
Dan: It gets so repetitive, and often we’re left with so few manageable ways of dealing with this. Especially in this fuckin’ economy. It’s like – yeah. Like, like, I, like, literally don’t have the money, like, I know so many people who can’t afford medication they need right now.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And it can be so miserable that it’s hard to feel like you deserve any, any sort of catharsis.
Paul: Yeah.
Dan: And to me, catharsis is everything. Like, you’ve gotta –
Paul: That’s what it’s all about.
Dan: You’ve gotta pour it into something.
Paul: Your soul’s gotta cum, right?
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Paul: Not just your balls.
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: Let’s, let’s end it on that awkward –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – bathroom stall of a, of a phrase. “Sometimes your soul needs to cum.” Dan Telfer, thank –
Dan: [laughs]
Paul: – thank you for being my guest. I, I appreciate it.
Dan: My pleasure, Paul. Thank you so much.
Paul: And, uh, can people reach you at, uh, dantelfer.com, I assume?
Dan: Yeah, dantelfer.com. Um, I put, like, performance there. I use Twitter a lot. I, uh, I love to post dumb shit on Twitter.
Paul: Okay, and what –
Dan: @DanTelfer.
Paul: @DanTelfer. T-E-L-F-E-R. Uh, thank you for, uh, taking time out and, uh, opening up. I appreciate it.
Dan: I love the podcast, man. Thanks so much.
Paul: Aw, thanks, Dan. I appreciate it. All right. Many thanks to, to Dan Telfer for a great episode. And, uh, thanks to Nathan Rabin for recommending Dan as a, as a guest. Really appreciate it. Um, couple of things before I take it out with a, uh, an e-mail and a survey response. As I’ve mentioned, the Web site for this show is mentalpod.com. If you go there, there’s, uh, a forum, there’s surveys you can take, and, uh, most importantly, there’s a little area where you can support the show. You can support the show a couple of different ways. You can support it financially by making a one-time PayPal donation or signing up to become a monthly, uh, donor via PayPal. You can do all of that right there on the, uh, on the site. And I love when people sign up to become a monthly, monthly donor, ‘cause it gets me a little closer to my dream of doing this as my full-time job. You can support the, uh, show by, when you buy something at Amazon, if you do it through the little search box on our home page, then Amazon gives me a couple of nickels, doesn’t cost you anything, nobody gets hurt, you get in, you get out, get the fuck on your way. Look at me, throwing in the F-bomb. You can also support the show non-financially a couple of different ways. You can go to iTunes and give us a good rating. That boosts our ranking, brings more people to the show. And you can also support it non-financially by spreading the word on social media. Reddit, Tumblr, all that other – all those other newfangled contraptions that those young whippersnappers use to, uh, waste their fuckin’ lives. Oh, that – why did I have to go – why did I have to take all the, the youth of America down? What the hell’s my dog doing? [laughs] It’s all, it’s all, it’s all going to hell. I’m going to read a e-mail that I got from a listener named Jeremy, and he writes, “Dear Mr. – Mr. Gilmartin.” I – I don’t think, till the day I die, I don’t think I will be comfortable being called “Mr. Gilmartin.” Uh, “Dear Mr. Gilmartin, I want to say how grateful I am for your podcast. Let me tell you why. I’m twenty-one, and a few months ago last April, I got out of the first long-term relationship in my young adult life. It lasted a year, so not super-long-term, but we’d been living together pretty much from the start. Maybe a couple of weeks in, so it was perhaps a bit accelerated. Looking back, I’ve been able to see that it was a somewhat abusive relationship. She would get drunk almost every night and treat me as though I was an emotional punching bag for her to lay into. It made me feel like I wasn’t her boyfriend, nor someone looking after her or anything like that. More so, I felt simply that I was a person whom she felt she had no emotional responsibility towards. The relationship ended because one night, when we were at a party, she was very drunk and decided that she wanted to go home with and fuck a guy whom I knew she had started to be somewhat interested in. I had heard a conversation of her saying with a sigh that he was sexy. I called her on it, and she turned it back on me, saying that I was being irrationally jealous, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so that’s how the relationship exploded. Why I’m writing you is because we – her and I – are still friends. We had three months apart during the summer and came back without hard feelings. However, when she gets drunk, she ends up treating me the same way that she used to, and I feel like I shut down. And on top of that, she makes passes at me even though both of us ended up meeting other people while we were away. Then when I refuse her advances or decide that I don’t want to engage in her abuse, she says things like, ‘You’re being creepy,’ because I’m trying not to talk to her, or she insults me in other ways. Where you and your podcast come in, I never would have realized that this behavior is abusive and that it is truly hurtful and it fucks me up big-time unless I recognize it and talk about it in some way. For me, that’s either by writing it in a journal, which I started at the beginning of the summer, right around the time I started listening to your podcast, or talking with one of my close friends, who lived with us while my ex and I were dating. I think the things that I’ve learned about the importance of talking to people or sharing your problems has altered my life for good.” That’s beautiful. That is beautiful, Jeremy. I love – I love seeing people stick up for yourself. And you know what I like about that too is it, it, it shows that women can be bullies also. And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to read that on this episode today, was, our society does not ever think that women can be bullies or women can be predators, but they can be. Sure, it’s not as common as men bullies and, uh, male bullies or, or male predators, but there’s a lot, there are a lot. And that, that freezing that we do sometimes when we get emotionally overwhelmed, a lot of guys do that, but they’re uncomfortable talking about that, because we’re afraid it makes us look like pussies. But for so much of my life, that would be my response. Uh, a female, uh, listener had e-mailed me and she was sharing some stuff about, um, when men would be sexually inappropriate with her and touch her and invade her space, that she would shut down. And I remembered times when I was in my twenties, and an older woman, or sometimes even a younger girl, uh, would come up to me after I was on stage and they would kind of be physically inappropriate with me at the, at the bar, and I couldn’t find the words to say, ‘Get the fuck away from me,’ and I felt like such a pussy. And I could feel, like, my temperature raise. Like, I didn’t – like, I felt like a little boy. Like, I didn’t know what to do. I just became overwhelmed. I was so afraid of hurting somebody’s feelings that I let my feelings get hurt, and I think that’s what Jeremy was, was experiencing, and my hunch is, a lot of us were raised in environments where our needs were ignored as children, and so we don’t know how to advocate for ourselves. And, uh, when I see somebody start to advocate for themselves, it, uh, it’s awesome. I love it. Love it, love it, love it. I’m going to take it out with an excerpt from the survey, uh, Happiest Moments. And this was filled out by a, uh, friend of the show, Patty Lynn Henry. And, um, Patty writes – and one of the things that, if you’re going to go take this survey, one of the things that I like is when people fill out happy moments that aren’t kind of the run-of-the-mill, what we expect, you know, “when my – when my child was born,” you know, “when my wife walked up the aisle.” You know, we expect those to be happy moments. Um, I’m looking for the ones that are kind of not as, as obvious. And this one that Patty shares is definitely not obvious. Uh, she writes, “In a weird way, the day that I was diagnosed with cancer was a happy moment. I was twenty-two, engaged, and scared of everything in life. I’d been dreading the day I would get cancer since I was about twelve, because somehow, I knew the universe would punish me, and when I was told I had Hodgkin’s lymphoma, I thought, ‘Finally, I was right. Now I don’t need to worry about that. I just need to focus on healing.’ Instead of being a pessimistic hypochondriac, I learned to appreciate life and love the little achievements. My fear was replaced with hope. I learned the importance of close relationships and taking chances, and I’ve been working on making the most of life ever since. I know people would think that that day I was told was quite, uh, that I was, quote, ‘cured,’ five years after my last chemo and radiation treatments, would be my happiest moment, and yes, it was a happy day, but I was already happy from the many lifestyle changes I had made when I was forced to realize how precious and amazing life was.” Fuck, is that beautiful. That’s just a big bucket of – that’s a barrel of beautiful. Thank you so much, Patty. And, uh, to anybody out there that’s struggling, you’re not alone. You are absolutely not alone.
[theme music begins playing]
Paul: And if you think you’re alone, go to the forum. Introduce yourself on the forum, get to know people. ‘Cause you are definitely not alone. And thank you so much for listening.
[theme music continues]
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