04/14/2014 In Podcast Episodes
Mini Ep: Failure – w/Dr. Guy Winch
Clinical psychologist Dr. Guy Winch shares some insights and tips for dealing with failure. Guy is the author or the book Emotional First Aid.
Mini Ep: Failure – w/Dr. Guy Winch
Episode notes:
Guy is the author or the book Emotional First Aid.
Episode Transcript:
Paul: Welcome to episode 167, its a mini episode with Dr Guy winch and
were going to talk about failure, and before we get to that I'm just
want to read a couple of surveys
This is from the Shouldn't Feel This Way survey, and it was filled out
by a woman who calls herself Ella.
She’s straight in her twenties, raised in a slightly dysfunctional environment.
What would you like for people to say about you at your funeral?
“I hope they say I brought light and love into a lot of people’s lives
and that I was a force for positive change in the world, both on an
interpersonal and systemic level”
How does writing that make you feel?
“It makes me feel scared that I will spew more negative energy into
the world than positive and scared that I will never achieve greatness
and never achieve my dreams
it also makes me feel overwhelmed. That I have never done anything in
my live and that I have wasted too much time and that I am behind in
the game -whatever the game is.”
I call that feeling three steps behind the universe, which is the
feeling I have in my chest every morning when I wake up... continuing
“I am also afraid I will remain a volatile person with intense mood
swings and lows until my death and I will die before I find some inner
peace and acceptance.
If you had a time machine how would you use it?
“I would want to see dinosaurs of visit Paris in the early 1900's and
swing by the salons of great literary and artistic figures like
Gertrude Stein”
“I'm supposed to feel happy that I'm turning 24 but I don’t. I feel
like a failure. I'm supposed to feel excited about the prospect of
climbing a mountain this summer, but I don’t. I feel totally out of
shape and unprepared and overwhelmed.
I feel like this dream of mine is going to turn into another line on
my list of failures. I'm supposed to feel OK about getting up going
to work but I don’t. I just feel tired. I'm supposed to feel OK about
the rest of my life but I don’t. I feel hopeless, overwhelmed and
paralyzed.”
How does it make you feel to write your feelings out?
“Yeesh. Like nails on a chalk board.”
Do you think you are abnormal for feeling like you do?
“Not after listening to your podcast. But I do feel abnormal compared
to my friends who seem to be able to find a way to exist in this
world. I just feel like I can’t.”
Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better
about yourself?
“Maybe a tiny bit but as long as I don’t live up to my expectations or
feel like I am living in alignment with my beliefs, values, and
desires, I will not feel at ease with myself.
Thank you for that Ella.
This is from the Bodyshame Survey and I guess this could have been
read just as well in the episode about rejection, but I dunno, I was
moved by this, I wanted to read this.
This is from the Bodyshame Survey by a woman who called herself
Pimpleface Thank God for Makeup. She is in her 20s and bisexual.
What do you like about your body and why?
“I'm a black female and I have acne. I dislike my skin colour not
because I hate being black, in fact I love being black being black has
caused me so much pain and strife that just to a generic white person
for a day would allow me to see the other side of things I suppose.
When people - men especially, see me all I can think is that I am some
exotic piece of meat that
they would like to try, but not make part of their staple diet.
I witnessed a person I had a crush on for two years, and I told him I
liked him, and he flat out told me that he is not into black girls. I
saw him take a dump in a public place late at night because he could
not wait until he got home. He did that and I still liked him, but
because of this barrier that is my blackness I was not for him. I
have been treated differently by my elementary, junior and senior high
school years by teachers who didn't know how to teach me. I'm most
attracted to white cowboy looking guys because that is the environment
I grew up in. I realise that I am not the norm for them
It makes me want to hide everything, myself and my feelings. I try not
to allow myself to feel anything romantic for white guys because I
just sense they’d like to taste me and never bring me home to their
family. I know this is all probably just in my head but growing and
clearly being rejected and treated differently because of the colour
of my skin just hurts.
I am also turning 26 and still have acne. I can’t even express how
much I want to get over this stupid acne.”
Sending you a hug.
And this last one before we get to the interview with Guy Winch is
from the Shouldn't Feel This Way survey. Its form a guy who calls
himself Kilbore Trouf.
He is straight, in his forties. Raised in a stable and safe environment.
“Though I say stable and safe my father died when I was 5 and I was
alone with him when it happened. In reality it was stable and safe -
in my head it was Gallipoli.”
What would you like for people to say about you at your funeral?
“At least he fucking tried.”
How does writing that make you feel?
“Not much really. I don’t really expect to have a well-attended
funeral. It’s not that I have alienated people it’s just that I have
isolated myself.”
If you had a time machine how would you use it?
“I would go back in time to watch someone listen to Rubber Soul for
the first time.”
Umm, Oh god my thought it that I want to see them record Rubber Soul.
That would be like... that album for me changed everything. That and
Revolver. I think actually I might.. I dunno, both those albums. I..I
own the fucking time machine! Why am I gintzing myself out of rides
on the time machine?
Even in my fantasies I'm stingy with myself. Ahh, anyway he’d want
to go back in time and watch someone listening to Rubber Soul for the
first time.
“I’d love to see the look on someone’s face when hearing something
amazing and new for the first time. I wouldn't go back to any point
in my personal life because I look back at enough and don’t need it in
3d. I am supposed to feel satisfaction with my work but I don’t, I
feel like a failure. I've supposedly achieved many things in my life
but when I look back I see a string of failures and emptiness. They
say to do what you love but right now I am not sure what I love if
anything.”
How does writing that make you feel?
“Nothing. It does not make me feel anything. I am not ashamed of
feeling worthless and a failure, I just wish I didn't feel that way.
I wish I could see whatever other people see when I complain about it.
I don’t see anything I have been successful at except being a snarky
asshole. The only thing I am proud of is that I have a good family.
The only shame I feel is that their husband/father doesn't feel he has
much value.”
Do you think you are abnormal for feeling what you do?
“No. I think more people feel that way than are willing to admit.” I
would heartily agree with that. “I think they are just much better
actors than I am. Lets face it. Anyone who battles depression and
anxiety can become an expert faker. We can pretend we are normal all
day long and when we get home we melt into a puddle of regret, fear
and loathing.”
Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better
about yourself?
“Yes. I’d think it would make everyone feel better about themselves
if they knew other people are suffering.”
Thank you for sharing that Kilbore.
Lets get to the little chat with Guy Winch about failure.
[8.00]
I'm here with Guy Winch and he has a book out called Emotional First
Aid, and its full of tips for how to deal with common emotional
injuries and issues that we deal with.
Paul: We've talked previously about rumination, rejection and
loneliness. What’s another big one?
GW: So another big one is failure. Because, boy we do that a lot and
it’s actually it’s very very important that we do. You know its how we
learn, is by failure. As kids, toddlers. Actually if you have been to
a room full of toddlers you can actually see the different responses
to failure that toddlers have. It’s kind of sad to think but it’s
probably how they are going to respond to it as adults because we do
learn that pretty early. You’ll see a jack in the box and you have to
pull this thing to have the toy come out. So you’ll see the toddler
that kind of fusses with it, gets frustrated, and pushes it away. And
you’ll see the toddler that keeps trying and keeps trying until they
get it and you’ll see the toddler that’s kind of frozen because they
don’t know what to do and don’t know if they’ll succeed so they don’t
even try. You see all those different coping styles - the immediate
frustration, the never giving up, the getting angry and smashing the
thing, the trying by force, trying to peek over the other toddler’s
shoulder and copy their answers for the exam. You can see from a very
young age how we deal with failure. It tends to be a little bit of a
pattern but we can change it. If we catch ourselves not having the
best types of responses to failure we can change them.
One of the places you see this frequently actually is reality TV
competition shows. Because you can see the competitors getting the
same feedback every week ‘ah yeah time management ‘this week I'm going
to this Herculean task and get screwed again’ And you are like ‘didn't
you just say you had time management issues? That means take 20% off
what you thought you are going to try and achieve. But they don’t.
So, the thing about failure is it really creates a perceptual
distortion in our heads. They did one study..
Paul: The anticipation of failure or the experience of having failed?
GW: Exactly - the having failed does that. They did one study where
they had people kick a football, an American football, over a field
goal which was 10 yards away. But it wasn't marked and then they had
them estimate how far and how high up was the goalpost. And the
people who failed estimated it as being much further away than the
people who succeeded, because one you fail at something it seems to be
a higher mountain to climb and your abilities seem to be less up to
the task, in terms of trying it again even though the task hasn’t
changed nor have your abilities.
The other thing failure does is it makes us really believe that we
can’t do it in a way that really psyches us out. There are many many
studies where people are given an impossible test of an easy variety -
but it’s rigged so that you can’t succeed and then you give them an
easy version that anyone can do and they fail it.
Paul: Really?
GW: Yes. There are many tests like that. They fail the most easy test
because they failed at it the first time when it was indeed rigged so
they figured ‘this is too difficult’, so they were unable to use the
actual resources and abilities they do have to pass the easy version.
So we have to be aware that that’s what failure does. It’s going to
distort our perceptions of how difficult it is to achieve something
and how capable we are of achieving it in the first place and we have
to correct for that.
Paul: So what are some tips for how to deal with failure?
GW: So for example; New years. It’s a disaster, New Years for a lot
of people.
You know I have a private practice, and I bring in patients who will
come in every year and they will whip out their lists of their new
years resolutions and it’s longer than their children’s lists to Santa
- and less realistic.
And I'm like, ‘um, how many things are we changing? Oh all sixteen.’
Paul: Are we really going to climb Mount Everest in sandals?
GW: Right. So people make a number of very very very common mistakes
and I'm just going to rattle of a few because they are ridiculous if
you think about them, but we do them all the time.
The most common mistake: We don’t set a start date.
You think, well, its January 1st. No it’s not. Because that falls on a
Saturday and we were thinking of starting on a Monday. It might be the
Monday after, but they don’t quite decide and lo and behold, and they
don’t start. So they don’t set a start date.
They don’t think through how they are going to get there in the first
place. In other words they are going to come up with goals that are
too vague such as, and I hear this all the time, ‘My Goal for this
year - I'm going to be happier.’
Paul: Laughs
GW: Oh Great. I'm not sure what it means, but I'm all for it. You know,
Or the goal is just really not realistic. ‘I'm going to write a best
selling novel!’ Well, you can’t write a best selling novel. You can
write a novel, and hope that it is, but you can’t write a best selling
one because that will incapacitate you on page one. You know, or
there’s these goals that are not practicable.
‘I just got divorced and I've got four kids and I am going to hit the
gym four times a week’ Really with four kids? No you are not, it’s
just not practical for you to do that.
So you have to be thoughtful in what is the goal you are setting. And
then you have to be really thoughtful about the planning. This is
where we tend to go wrong. We don’t plan. Oh you want to get healthy?
- all for it. You want to lose 20lb - terrific. What’s your approach
going to be? Diet -which one? Is it a practical diet for you? A lot of
the diets people want to use are extremely laborious in terms of time
because you have the ‘you can’t just get that out the store’ and do
you have the time to cook? And I don’t know how long it takes to boil
kelp but I am just saying you know you have to make sure that this is
a practical thing for you.
You have to make sure your motivation is correct. What happens a lot
of the time is some motivation is extrinsic, like an external thing,
like ‘I want to lose 20lb’ You lose 20lb if you are lucky, and you’ll
gain it right back very quickly because if the goal is lose 20lb,
what’s the goal once you have lost it? Where’s the motivation then?
You've lost it, where’s your motivation now?
Paul: So if it is not to become healthy and stay healthy?
GW: That’s a good goal. Health is a good goal but then it is a little
less dependant on pounds and more dependant on lifestyle change. And
then you are going to get somewhere that’s going to last. But that’s
exactly the point.
Paul: A tool that has helped me incredibly is breaking things down
into baby steps.
GW: Very important.
Paul: I in the last year stopped doing push-ups and sit ups and
running. The only kind of exercise I can do that brings me any kind of
pleasure is playing hockey a couple of times a week but that doesn't
work on your upper body that much so I've tried to will myself into
doing these things and I can’t so I remembered. Oh, baby steps! So
about two weeks ago I started by doing one sit up and one push up a
day. And the next day I did two, and the next day I did three. Now I
am up to 11. It’s totally doable and it’s feeling easier because my
muscles are getting a little bit stronger. And I recommend that for
anybody. Make it a ridiculous-ly small amount to start off with and
add whatever the smallest increment is the next day.
GW. That’s very very important. In fact breaking it down into steps,
manageable steps is very important. What I say to people some times,
and they look at me like I'm crazy but their goal is - but I'm not
going to work out, ‘How about you go to the gym, you change into your
workout clothes, think about whether or not you want to work out. If
you don’t it’s completely fine - change back.’ Now most people by
the time they got to the gym and changed into their work out clothes,
they’ll go and do the sit up. In other words it is about getting there
and all of that. But if that is the the goal they’ll get there and
find ‘screw it I’ll do some of the work.’
But yes, those baby steps are very important because baby steps are
encouraging. When you do the one sit up, which you can do, and the
one push up, which you can do, your like ‘ I met my goal!’ Good.
Encouraging. When you fail because you said ‘I am going to do 50 a day
and you are like ‘I can’t do this.’ you stop. So make sure you are
making the goals manageable. The ideal in psychology is, the ideal
goal is one that takes moderate effort. If it’s too hard it’s no good.
If it’s too easy then it doesn't feel like enough of a success. So the
moderately, the ones that require moderate effort, is the range you
should be shooting for in terms of
where the intermediate goals are in terms of what you are going to aim
for in that sense.
Paul: So what are some other tips for how to deal with..
GW: Failure?. Oh right. One of the things we've got to keep in mind
with failing and getting over it is the planning and the preparation.
The thing is this. We tend to have the same blind spots when it comes
to failure. But that’s a good thing because it means we are going to
make the same mistakes. And then if we can catch them then that’s what
we have to look out for.
And so there’s some people that are great at starting things but
around the 20% mark of the task is when they get discouraged. If you
can look back and keep finding where you go awry then you can
anticipate that and build something in because you know that is is
where your motivation lags - week three typically. Because a lot of
people will star a diet, say, they’ll tend to fail at the same point.
They’ll be good with it for a short- people say ‘I’m always good for
a month.’ Great. You always need to build in something important in
that one month mark because now you know that’s where it’s going to
lag. Once you look back on your past failures you can figure out
where do I need to build things in? What are the signs that I need an
extra boost of motivation, extra incentives? Things like that, that
will make a very big difference in terms of that’s what’s going to
happen again, most likely.
Paul: What are some other tips for dealing with failure?
GW: Very very important one: You want to focus on factors in your
control. Because once you’ve failed you kind of tend to feel like it
wasn't in your control. e.g. ‘I didn't get the promotion because the
boss likes those other two people so they are always going to get
promoted in front of me so there is nothing I can do’ Well that’s not
true. Why does the boss like them? Because they play tennis, the boss
plays tennis. Learn tennis. Or is it their sales, you are not just as
good at sales. Go take a sales seminar. Work on your relationship with
the boss. Find out what the boss is interested in. Whatever it is
focus on what you DO control because when you focus on what you can’t
you feel helpless. That you feel there’s not much more you can do than
what you have already done. So it’s important to, and especially
important with kids, to focus on what they can control. With kids it’s
very easy: Effort. ‘Oh I studied as hard as I can.’ No, no, you didn't
study as hard as you can. You studied hard, for sure, but not as hard
as you can. You know why? Because you played video games that day,
because you were reading comic books that day, because you went out
with your friends that day. You could study more. Maybe that’s what it
takes. You thought you studied as hard as you can. Add ten percent now
because apparently it wasn't enough.
Effort is something you can control. Planning is something you can
control. So focus on all those variables that are under your control.
There are very few that essentially are not. Do you know what I mean?
Yes if you are five foot three, you are not going to be a model, most
likely. So there may be not much you can do about that. But it’s that
very rare thing that maybe would prevent somebody. You maybe shouldn't
be trying to. But most things you want to do, we can do. There are
success stories all over the place.
Paul: And I am glad you mentioned that because one of the most helpful
things for me when I am dealing with something that is stressing me
out is to do a triage of breaking it down into what I have control
over and what I do not have control over. To just surrender to the
things I have no control over and focus on the ones I do and try to
give them priorities and think what is really important here and what
are my motivations for waning to do these. ‘Cause sometimes I’ll
realize ‘Oh that I don’t need to do this’ because this is about me
trying to look good because I am afraid of being rejected or I'm
afraid of being alone or not being special. I just need to turn that
over and kind of just be OK with who I am but other times its ‘no
I’ll want the podcast to grow’ I need to try to contact a writer and
see if they want to write a story about this even though I am
terrified of them rejecting my idea. I just go through with it. And I
find that to be very helpful -as opposed to sitting and ruminating
and saying the podcast isn't expanding.
GW: Rightt. And by the way, in terms of that example, of trying to
find a writer to write about the podcast. It’s very scary to contact a
writer to ask about the podcast. Ironically it’s much less scary to
contact ten writers. Because then you just cross one name off the list
and go to the next. Sometimes doing things in volume - ironically if
one is scary, ten should be ten times as scary - ten is much less
scary in those kinds of scenarios.
Paul: Maybe I’ll hire one of those planes that has the message
trailing behind it.
GW: Yes, but where would you fly it?
P&GW (laughs)
GW: Where do the writers hang out?
Paul: Martha’s Vineyard.
GW OK very good.
Paul: Ahh What are some of the other tips for dealing with failure or
anticipation of failure?
GW: So one of the things we know. We used to think happiness is based
on succeeding at our goals. Turns out. not so much.
most marathon runners for example , not the professionals but the
amateur marathon runners, their high from completing the marathon
usually disappears before their nipples stop bleeding. I don’t know
if you know that..
Paul: I want that on a tee shirt!
GW: Turns out running for miles in a tee shirt will create...there we
are. It does happen. That high lasts for a short amount of time. If
you track where people’s happiness and satisfaction is, just as an
example training for and completing a marathon, it is in getting, in
making progress towards our goal. It is much more satisfying more life
affirming, motivating and happy thing than actually reaching it. So
its a great thing to keep in mind. Health, for example. When you
define health as something you want to do. Living your life looking
back on your week and going ‘that was a healthy week for me - I worked
out this amount of times I did this amount of push-ups I ate
reasonably most of the time’ that’s very satisfying. And that is where
you will feel happy about yourself.
If you are to focused on the scale for some reason then that’s an
external thing that you will hit - and then what? It is about
creating goals that are longer lasting, and really focusing one the
journey because that’s really where we get our happiness and our
satisfaction. Once it’s achieved now what?
Paul: And one thing I will add to that. It’s so dangerous to set up
your goals in terms of how people will react to you and how they
respond and take notice of you. Like ‘I'm going to work out in the
gym until that girl takes notice of me.’ or, you know, ‘I'm going to
work at this until I win an award.’ for something, because then your
goal is something you have no control over.
GW: Absolutely. You could work out until you are literally Mr Universe
and turns out she was a lesbian so ‘Sorry. didn't work for you.’ In
other words the external thing, certainly if it is to impress someone
else, it’s not the right goal. Because, that’s completely not in your
control, it’s not something that's a really sufficient motivator and
it’s not something that is going to make you feel good because you ar
completely giving up your control and how you are going to feel. You
are putting it in the hands of a stranger, or non stranger, but you
are putting it in someone else’s hands. Why would you do that? Keep
that in your own hands.
Paul: What are some other tips for failure?
GW: I think those are the main ones in terms of again there are always
all kinds of one in the book, but its really about, to me the most
important parts of it are : Before you start, its about defining the
goals in a very clear way that’s concrete. Its about breaking them
down into the small steps and to the mini-goals. It’s about planning
about how you are going to reach them. Its about really, and I didn't
mention this one, and its very important, anticipating where the
hurdles are going to be and figuring them out ahead of time. So you
need to get to the gym. So do you have a babysitter that tends to
cancel - look up a second babysitter before you start, because
otherwise it will be very difficult to keep your motivation up if you
are worried all the time about ‘will she cancel on me or will she
not?’ Figure out where the hurdles are, where you tend to go off
track. And figure out solutions to that before you start and have a
well thought out plan of approach.
Paul: I’ve heard people suggest going out and intentionally doing
things imperfectly to become more comfortable , to ease that
perfectionist that can sometimes have them frozen.
GW: For perfectionists. For perfectionists that’s a good exercise.
Because perfectionists really have to build a resilience in which they
can tolerate imperfection. And really the best way to do that is to
plan imperfection, in that sense. And to go out and do something
slightly wrong. Get it wrong in school: aim for that B plus. Horror
maybe, but aim for the B plus. Go out and make the mistake or really
come through and find the mistakes and be proud of them. Set a goal
‘you need to make three mistakes a week’ and then its a goal! Go find
them and be proud that you did. You have to really make yourself more
immune when you are a perfectionist to not being perfect and that you
can build up that kind of immunity and that you can do if you identify
and celebrate them.
Paul: Thank you Guy and Thank you guys about all the great feedback
you have been giving me about all the mini episodes. I've been
forwarding all your nice comments to Guy. He’s been quite touched.
I’m going to take it out with three surveys. This first one, and these
are unrelated I think to.. OK I guess this first one is, could kind
of, be related to failure. This is an Awefulsome moment filled out by
Suze.
She writes: “As a kid my parents and I used to visit my grandparents
on the weekends at their home in a retirement community just a few
hours away. It was extremely stressful for my parents because my
grandparents were the picture of dysfunction. Grandpa was crotchety,
unpredictable, short tempered, and could be incredibly verbally
abusive if he was in the mood.
One visit my parents, grandparents, and myself all went down for a
walk by the lake. My mom was teaching me to skip rocks, which I was
pretty terrible at because I was a dumb kid. I guess I was not
mastering the art as quickly as my grandpa would have liked. So he
barrelled over and screamed at us all. THAT AIN'T HOW YOU SKIP A DAMN
ROCK! LET ME SHOW YOU HOW YOU SKIP A DAMN ROCK. [Paul: I like how I
gave it a southern accent]
As he leaned over to toss the rock over the water he slipped and fell
off the dock and into the lake. He totally bit it and was bleeding
from the gravel at the bottom. He walked back dripping wet to the
house in silence. It was the worst, longest, walk of my life. To add a
perfect cherry on top of his humiliation, my grandma had only brightly
coloured children’s band-aids to put all over his face and arms. He
went to his room for the rest of the night. We left early that trip
and that really was the last time we did a family activity. “
Paul:: Thank you for that Awefulsome Moment. This is a Happy Moment
filled out by... You know what, I'm going to read out another one
first. I am going to read another Awefulsome Moment first and this is
filled out by a woman who calls herself Blue Tulip, and I guess this
could fall into the failure category. It just kind of amused me.
“After my husband and I had been married for a few years I realized
that things were going badly for him in graduate school. Things were
going so badly for him he was going to have to leave the program
because of mental health issues. This meant we had to find somewhere
else to live and we had to find a job. Since we had been preparing to
move to a new place for his internship we decided to move to another
state. Turns out that that was a pretty terrible idea. We had no idea
how hard it would be to get new jobs in a smaller community and we
struggled financially. It was a very dark time. I felt we may lose
everything and I felt powerless.
After a few months I was able to get a temp job doing a part time job
of data entry at a coffee shop. I decided I should try to get out and
make some new friends as things seemed to be looking up. I went and
auditioned for the community theater and got a small part in a dumb
play. Even a dumb play felt better than sitting around and there were
some nice people to chat with during rehearsals. I’d been in plenty of
productions before and still managed to make a ‘rookie’ mistake in our
first weekend of performances. I can’t remember if I’d worked one or
both jobs but I didn't have time to go home for dinner before call
time so I just got a burrito and a diet coke...” [Paul: I think we
know where this is headed!]
“...During my first scene I was seated in a ladylike fashion in a
wing backed chair trading dialogue with two other characters. They
were supposed to be having witty banter when a ghost enters the room..
Only the one person can see the ghost and the other two of us pretend
they can’t see her as she walks around the stage. At this point the
burrito made its presence known. I totally ripped gas. The wing-backed
chair was padded enough that it wasn’t so bad, but I knew people could
hear it. I wanted the floor to open and let me die then. But I am a
professional. I bit my lip and bravely said my next line: ‘Did you
feel a breeze just now?’ So much for my fabulous stage career in a
brand new town!”
Paul: Thank you for that, and this final one is a Happy Moment filled
out by Callie, she’s in her 20s and her Happy Moment is:
“After and entire season of sitting on the bench during my 8th grade
basket ball season, my coach put me in with three minutes remaining in
the last game of the season. I was a shy, tiny little wallflower at
the time, but I practised so hard every day.
I miraculously scored a three-point shot, and was fouled and made two
perfect free throw shots. It’s the only ‘made for TV’ happy movie
moment I have ever had. everyone in the stands stood up and cheered.
I’ll never forget the look on everyone’s faces: So proud! Although I
never played basketball again because it was terrifying, I’ll never
forget the one night in middle school when I felt like a superstar.”
Paul: Thank you for that Callie. And thank you guys for being a part
of this thing. This thing we call the mental illness happy hour, and
we’ll see you Friday.
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