Valerie, a listener talks about the painful decision she made to give her only son up for adoption years ago when she was 18 and living with her Catholic, divorced mother. Recorded via Skype so the audio quality isn’t optimal. First half of the show is the interview, second half is surveys.
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Episode 122--Giving Up Her Baby--Valerie
Paul: Welcome to episode 122 with my guest, Valerie. I'm Paul Gilmartin, this is The Mental Illness Happy Hour, an hour or two of honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions and past traumas to everyday compulsive negative thinking. This show is not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling, it's not a doctor's office, it's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. The website for this show is mentalpod.com, all kinds of stuff there you can get involved in. There's a forum, you can support the show financially, you can take surveys, you can see how other people responded to surveys, there's like eight different surveys on a variety of topics, and if you're familiar with the show you know I read them, they're a part of the show, and they let me get to know you guys and I think you guys also get a lot from them according to the emails I get from you. They bring you some comfort to let you know you're not alone in the stuff you think and feel. I have gotten an offer for the middle of November to do two live shows in Toronto as part of a mental health awareness event. I think the dates are Friday the 15th at night and Saturday the 16th during the day. So I've posted in the forum, there's a thread called "Would you like to have a mental illness happy hour show in your town?" and I think there's a sub-thread of "Possible show in Toronto." So there's a poll on there, if you guys that live in Ontario wouldn't mind taking that poll if you're interested in attending that show, and then I can get a feel for how many people are gonna come out.
Let's get into it. I've decided, by the way, to backload the show with more surveys after the interview. I think that's what most people enjoy, 'cause some people that fast-forward through the surveys. So I may read an email or two up front and just a snippet from a survey, but the bulk will be afterwards. And if you don't like that, you know what you can do. GFY.
This is an email I got from a woman who calls herself A. And she writes "I've been wanting to write this email since I first started listening to your show over three months ago, but writing it down makes it more real for me and means I have to deal with it. I don't know how to deal with these things. I had been with my boyfriend for over a year when I found texts in his phone from another man, explicit ones, where he invited this man over so he could give him a blowjob, and then they talked about it. He assured me this all happened before he met me, that this has happened about six times in his life, he is not gay, he just gets off on sex. So I worked through it in my own way until the text happened again, about four months later. He said it's how he copes with things, that it doesn't feel real to him. That was when he told me that his 'dad got him into it'. When I asked for more information he just told me 'What do you think?'. I think about this every day. We're still together but things haven't been the same since I saw those texts. I blame myself more than him--", I just have to interrupt here and do NOT blame yourself for this, at least where you are right now in this, "--like I'm not being accepting enough. I want to accept him for who he is and his sexuality but I am struggling with it. However, I feel since I've told him I love him regardless and I trust him again, I don't know that I can keep bringing this up with him. I've just been seeking an understanding, open-minded perspective, and every time I hear you talk about the fluidity of someone's sexuality, I take a deep breath and sigh and know I am not alone and he is not a freak for these desires of his, but it concerns me, this relationship with his dad. I need to know more. I fear how he would act around our children if we had sons, I'm concerned how much of that is in him, how much it really affected him. I'm not sure what I'm looking for from you, I just don't know where else to go at this point. It feels like old news and something I need to move past, or not. I love him and I don't want this to be the thing that completely tears us apart." Definitely you don't need to move past this. I preface it all the time, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a licensed mental health worker, but these are my opinions and this is a big deal for your relationship with him, and it's not about whether he's gay or straight, I think, or bi-sexual or where that is, it's about being able to have trust between you two and being able to have intimacy. I think most relationships struggle with intimacy and trust because people are afraid of being judged and I would imagine when he was a kid and his dad did that to him, he had to put all of his fucking walls up to get up in the morning and the first thing that popped into my head when I read this was 'They should both go to couple's counseling', and going to that at least once a week for a year should be a deal-breaker for you. That if he doesn't do it, you get out of the relationship. Because sexual abuse is traumatic enough foir somebody, but sexual abuse from a caregiver is especially traumatic because that's the person that was supposed to protect you. So I'm sure he's got really deep wounds and I wouldn't be one of these people that think if you just marry him everything's gonna work out. I see so many people that do that, they think "Marriage will make me happy enough that we won't worry about this issue anymore", and that wouldn't be the case. I think the thing that's also awesome about couple's counseling is you'll have an objective person there that will advocate for you. There's bad selfish and good selfish, and I think this is the time for you to be good selfish and to really think about your needs. Because sometimes letting somebody go--and I'm not saying that's what you should do here, but you may have to--letting somebody go is the most loving thing you can do because you're not only doing it to love and protect yourself but you're doing it to show that other person there are consequences for them not dealing with their problem, and it helps them possibly understand how large their problem is.
And I just wanna take it out with this, speaking of possible co-dependency, this is from the Struggle in a Sentence survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Lou. About her co-dependency she writes "Once I can get everyone else's life in order, mine will finally fall into place." And that one hit me, personally, between the eyes. I deeply, deeply relate to that and I thought that was so well put. And that reminds me of a joke I heard: What's the last thing to flash through a co-dependent's mind, right before they die? Somebody else's life.
[Intro/theme music]
I just want to mention before this interview starts that this was recorded on Skype and 90% of the stuff that I've recorded on Skype, I haven't been happy with the audio quality. This one is just passable enough for me to air it and I felt like it was a topic we hadn't covered on the show, so I wanted to put it up for that reason. We pick it up a minute or two into the interview, and Valerie is talking about finding out that she was pregnant at 18 years of age.
Valerie: First of all, I was in denial for a long time about it, that was another interesting part about it, that I was about five months along and had been telling myself all sorts of things about what was happening, and why I was missing my periods and why I was gaining weight.
Paul: You were 18 years old? And who was the father?
Valerie: My boyfriend. He was 20, I was in high school with him and--
Paul: He had graduated, obviously?
Valerie: Yeah, he graduated. He still lived at home with his parents, I still lived at home with my parents, and so it was in our best interest to avoid the subject of what was happening but there came a point where too many people were noticing and not directly involved so they were comfortable with saying "What is wrong with you? You need to get checked out, this needs to be taken care of." So I ended up going to the gynecologist and of course she didn't even have to do a pregnancy test, she just took a doppler heartbeat monitor and put it on my stomach and you could hear the heartbeat, and I can't even tell you what that was like.
Paul: Obviously you said you were in denial, but how big was your stomach? Five months, how could you not know you're pregnant at five months?
Valerie: It was a lot of saying I was just gaining weight.
Paul: And you weren't getting your period.
Valerie: Right, but it's funny how many people will help you stay in denial, because I had a friend tell me "Well, you might be so worried about being pregnant that you're taking on the symptoms of it," and there is actually something like that but this was not that, obviously. But they were trying to help me but it wasn't helping. So anyway I look back on it now and I'm just like 'How did that happen? How did I let that get into my head that I wasn't pregnant?' It was just so frightening a prospect.
Paul: What were your parents saying during this time?
Valerie: Well my father was never around, it was really just my mother and I think she was in as much denial as I was. She didn't wanna deal with it either, so...
Paul: Had you not used protection, or did the protection not work?
Valerie: We used protection sometimes, but not all the time. We used the pull out method a lot of times, and he said that once he just let it go. And I was like 'Oh, that's nice.' Once I told him that I was pregnant, once I found out for myself, he told me that at one point he didn't even think about it, he just let it go, and I was like 'That's great.' Yeah, that's how it happened. We just didn't use that condoms that particular time, I guess. It was a massive cover-up again, my family still doesn't know other than my grandmother, my mother, and my brother.
Paul: To this day?
Valerie: Yep.
Paul: So which relatives don't know, that are close to you?
Valerie: My mother's brother, my uncle, he doesn't know, aunts. After my grandfather died we actually were distant from most of the family so it's really just my uncle that it still boggles my mind that he doesn't know that whole part of my life. I sort of have left it up to my mother to make that decision to tell him, I don't even know what to do at this point about that, you know?
Paul: Do you need to tell him? He's not really owed an explanation, is he?
Valerie: Not really, no, ‘cause he’s almost as bad…Then men in my family, it just tends to be like they’re spoken about and rarely seen. It’s all women, and occasionally a guy will pop in as an uncle or whatever, so it wasn’t that astronomical to me that she didn’t want to tell him because he’d blow a gasket and make a big deal about it and he had no right to. Because he was never around and it’s almost like my father, too. We had to talk to him about what was going on and he didn’t want me to do the adoption. He wanted me to marry the boyfriend, keep the baby, that’s what he wanted me to do. And I hadn’t spoken to him in eight years at that point.
Paul: He wanted you to do anything that didn’t involve him lifting a finger.
Valerie: Yeah, well. My mother was appalled that he had any input at all, and I guess I was too. I think I was shell-shocked that I even heard his voice on the phone, ‘cause like I said I hadn’t talked to him in eight years and now here he is…
Paul: How far away from you was he living?
Valerie: Oh, goodness. Maybe a good hour’s drive.
Paul: You’re from Massachusetts?
Valerie: Yeah. Maybe not even an hour’s drive. For the longest time it felt like he must have lived across the country for him not to be involved in my life, but I realized he could have probably lived next door and I still wouldn’t have seen him, so he lived in Attleboro, I lived in Weymouth, so it was probably a 30 minute car drive. So that’s a painful in and of itself.
Paul: That had to hurt.
Valerie: Yeah. Still does. I found out that my half-brother lives in Brockton, that’s 10 minutes away, and that he has lunch with my father occasionally. He’s a half-brother and he sees my father all the time, and I’m like…It’s just an endless rejection from my father.
Paul: It just blows my mind, I can’t even understand how an adult can not know that a child wants…
Valerie: I know. And a lot of times I think it might have been my mother. You know, ‘cause women can push the father out of the life because of the relationship that they have with the man, you know what I mean? Like maybe my mother made it more difficult for my father? But that’s not an excuse. He was old enough to show that he was making an effort. I remember he dropped off a birthday present for me, in the bag, on the front step, my mother had taken us out of the house, which was suspicious, she took us away, and when we got back to the house, there was a fishing pole in a shopping bag for my birthday present on the front step. He was nowhere to be seen. It was just like ‘Why bother?’ That’s almost a slap in the face along with a screw you.
Paul: Do you think your mom had arranged it because she didn’t want you to be around him?
Valerie: I have my suspicions about that, I’ve never addressed it with her.
Paul: Is your mom hard to talk to? She sounds like she must be. She lives in denial and bends the truth to fit whatever is convenient for her?
Valerie: Mmm hmm.
Paul: I think our moms play bridge, that they might know each other, that they play at “That Didn’t Happen” country club.
Valerie: Exactly.
Paul: Is there anything more draining than that? I hate to stereotype men and women but if there is a stereotype it’s the female that’s overly controlling and overly worried and the man that either shuts down or doesn’t want to expend the energy to put up the fight that is necessary to get their point of view, and the kids wind up being in this. ‘Cause I know my mom wore my dad down, and my dad probably enjoyed not having to take any emotional interest in his kids, ‘cause then it’s more time to watch sports and sit at the end of the couch and think about himself. And I’m not saying this because you have such a thick eastern accent, but it’s like a perfect storm, you know? Your accent isn’t that thick, but because you have an eastern accent, it just…
Valerie: Oh no, I’m from Boston.
Paul: Yeah. But the kids are the ones that wind up getting fucked up from this. So you tell me what the next step in the story is, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth.
Valerie: Well, after we went to the gynecologist and I got checked out and realized how far along I was, the next step was really just figuring out what to do. I was pretty surprised by some suggestions, well, really, other than adoption the option was to keep or to abort, and I swear my mother, a Catholic Christian woman, if it had been a month less she probably would have suggested an abortion, which pisses me off no end, because it’s highly hypocritical from what we were raised on. I think it’s amazing when people are tested on their values how quickly they fall to the wayside when it comes down to it.
Paul: So your dad is kind of out of the picture, how was your mom treating you at this point? You’re five months pregnant, or plus, how was your mom dealing with it?
Valerie: Well first it was the suggestion, like I said it was really just a fleeting suggestion, but it was still pretty appalling to me that she would suggest abortion. But for the rest of the time it was basically out of sight from anyone but the immediate family.
Paul: Was it appalling to you morally because you were against abortion, or because it was against your mother’s own code, if it were someone else’s daughter?
Valerie: Kind of both. I’m not really against it, I can see where people would use that as an option, I would never tell people that they couldn’t have one, it does go against what I believe.
Paul: Were you raised any denomination?
Valerie: Roman Catholic.
Paul: I had a feeling but I didn’t wanna be obnoxious. I didn’t wanna stereotype with the Boston accent, I didn’t want to assume. But just so we know, right now you’ve got a beer. We can assume that as well.
Valerie: Yeah.
Paul: So it was kind of against everything that had been preached in your house and what you felt?
Valerie: Yeah, I think that was around the time I really started to question religion in general. I mean, if you can just drop it like that just because you’re in a crisis, it amazed me. I was like ‘Wow.’ I thought you were supposed to stand up for your values and integrity in what you believe, so it pissed me off on that level and it pissed me off on the level that it’s alive. We just heard the heartbeat, and five months, that’s pretty far along, there’s only four left to go. You’re more than halfway there.
Paul: Was your mom pushing for it, or she was just putting that option on the table?
Valerie: No, it was kind of a first thought, though. It was like “What are we gonna do about this? We can’t have you keeping the baby, so there’s only two options.” The fact that it was a second option or a third option, was what was appalling to me. I thought that would be not even mentioned, but it seemed to be on her mind as an option. She definitely didn’t push it though, I will give her that.
Paul: Do you watch Mad Men?
Valerie: I’ve seen a little bit of it, why?
Paul: I’m picturing you and your mom’s relationship like Peggy and her mom in Mad Men. Did you not see any of it when Peggy got pregnant and how she dealt with her mom and stuff? It just kind of reminds me of that a little bit. Sorry for that tangent. One of the things I like to do since it’s my own podcast is grind it to a screeching halt and kill any momentum that we’ve got going. That’s the nice thing about not having to answer to anybody except quality.
Valerie: That’s pretty good, though.
Paul: Let’s get back to the fun stuff, the possible abortion. Let’s get back to the frivolities. So you’ve got this thing growing between your legs, go.
Valerie: Okay. Go! My motivation.
Paul: Were you discussing this with your mom, or was it just she put her opinion out there and it was up to you then to decide what to do? Was it known that it was gonna be completely your decision? Or was the feeling that if you didn’t do something that they wanted, there was gonna be hell to pay?
Valerie: It was, yeah, more the latter. It was like “It’s your choice, but…” I mean, when you’re not even allowed to sit on your front steps because the neighbors might see, you kind of get a gist of what your life would be like.
Paul: Now to be fair, you lived next door to the Kravitzes.
Valerie: Of course. But actually you’re not far off, we lived in a neighborhood that’s about three houses, it’s a dead-end street, and they kind of do look out their windows at everybody but who cares? To me, I don’t even understand that. It’s your family, who cares what they think, you know what I mean? I just couldn’t even understand that. Even if they were gonna throw rocks through our window, I wouldn’t have made a big deal about that. I would have moved if it meant that. But my mother saw what would probably end up happening. I understand her viewpoint on it, obviously I wasn’t ready to raise a child in any way. I was just leaving high school, I didn’t know what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. So it definitely…I knew what the right decision was gonna be, and not for me so much as for my son. I just saw his future unfolding in a dysfunctional family and I know the way it was for me with my grandmother babysitting a lot of the time when my mother was trying to go to college, and I just remember a lot of times where I just couldn’t believe the things that were being said to me. When you're raised in a certain environment, it's amazing that you can actually recognize when someone is being hateful and just saying things that wouldn't even occur to me to say to them. I remember being a little kid and I was getting out of bed after staying out of school, and my grandmother's yelling at me, saying that I'm diseased, I need to get back in the room, like almost quarantined. That kind of thing, insensitive--
Paul: Why?
Valerie: Just insensitive control-freak, that kind of thing.
Paul: What did she mean you were diseased?
Valerie: I had a cold, that's what she meant. I was diseased and she wanted me to stay in bed. If I was gonna stay home from school then I was diseased and I needed to stay in the room, even if I was feeling better. I mean, just really--
Paul: So everything was blown up into high drama.
Valerie: Yeah. And to me you don't say "You're diseased" to a kid. I was very young, I was maybe six or seven or something. That's just a horrible thing to say, to me. "Diseased." God. Not "You have a cold, I want you to feel better, if you get up now you won't get well as quickly." No. "You're diseased." So anyway, I didn't want my son to hear the term, and I knew this was gonna happen.
Paul: And there was stuff besides that, as well, right? It obviously wasn't just this isolated incident of a cold.
Valerie: That's just the one that I remember the most vividly. Just insensitive things said and I know, all I could picture was my son taking a cookie before dinner and my grandmother saying "You're a bastard, you know."
Paul: That's something she would say? She would call people bastards?
Valerie: Yeah. I wouldn't have put it past her at all. So I knew I didn't want him to be raised by this family.
Paul: I like by the way how I'm like "She called him a bastard??", like my mom never said that a hundred times to me.
Valerie: I know.
Paul: But go ahead. It's so much easier to recognize it in other people, it's so much easier to have compassion for that.
Valerie: Or even to say that he was a mistake, or something like that.
Paul: Oh sure, that would have been just a big old bulls-eye on your back if you're in a critical family that's terrified of what other people think. They're gonna take that anxiety out on you, you just know that in your gut.
Valerie: Yeah, out on him. And he had the opportunity for a wonderful life, a new start, perfect. I could at least give him a start that seemed perfect, you know, nothing is perfect, but a lot better than what I was raised in, let's put it that way. I had a lot of de-programming to do and I didn't want him to go through the same thing.
Paul: It's amazing that you knew that at 18, because a lot of people don't realize how fucked up their family is until they move out.
Valerie: I know. And I've always lived at home. I've lived outside of my house for a year, and that was at the age of 26, maybe even 28. I'm trying to think really quick how far back that was. Probably more about 27 or 28 I lived outside the house for a year, and other than that...I'm still at home now because...Well, that's another story altogether. I was engaged to a guy, we lived together, we broke up, I end up moving back home.
Paul: And you're how old?
Valerie: I'm 33.
Paul: And you just graduated nursing school?
Valerie: Yeah.
Paul: Well, as I was saying to you before we were rolling, you've got a bright future 'cause a lot of baby boomers are going to by dying, so there's a long road of diapers in your future, and I'm sure that's the image nurses love to conjure up.
Valerie: Oh, I already have plenty of them just as a nursing assistant. As a nursing assistant I've probably dealt with them more now than I will in the future, I swear. But luckily I don't really mind that sort of thing, I really like helping people through that time and making them feel comfortable with that, 'cause I'm sure they have a lot of faces over them looking like "Ewww", that kind of thing, and I like being the person that walks in like 'No biggie. I know it's a big deal for you, you've never had this happen to you before, or it's embarrassing for you, but I've done this for a long time and I've seen a lot of things and there's nothing that can come out of you that I haven't seen. Not one thing that way.'
Paul: That's so beautiful, Valerie, because I can tell you as a kid who was in hospitals a lot, I had a lot of operations and some of them were very embarrassing and had to do with stuff that kids are embarrassed about, the few nurses that come to mind that acted like it was no big deal and were friendly and would sing songs and just had a compassionate look on their face, it meant the absolute world to me. So I'm glad that you get it, because there are some nurses out there that don't, and they forget how vulnerable somebody feels when they're in that bed and you're dependent on them, and you're scared and you're ashamed. It's like all your worst emotions in a big pot pourri, and you're kind of imprisoned in this thing...So when somebody comes along that makes you feel the opposite, that makes you feel normal, that makes you feel safe, that makes you feel cared for and makes you feel like everything's gonna be okay, it's so beautiful. So there's gonna be some people that will be very lucky to have you as a nurse. But I digress. So what is the next thing that leads you to your decision?
Valerie: So, it was feeling like I just wanted to give him the best start possible, and I knew it wasn't gonna happen with me so we went to a lot of adoption agencies, and it was difficult to really find one that felt right, and we found this one and it's funny, talk about knowing you made the right decision as you're making the decision, it was like a Jewish family, and the first thing my mother said was "Oh, Jewish. Oh, goodness. She wants Roman Catholic."
Paul: Really?
Valerie: Yeah.
Paul: Doesn't she realize either way, there's gonna be guilt?
Valerie: I know, really. There's the self-hating Jewish people and the ultra-guilty Roman Catholics. It's everywhere. So...The great thing about it is though, we found the perfect family. It happened to be the first photo album that we were shown, but we looked through many, many afterwards. But I always kept coming back to the first one we were shown because it was a Jewish-Roman Catholic family and I knew that's what I wanted. I said 'Wow.' I mean, talk about getting both sides of the story and being able to make up your own mind about what you want to believe? And seeing how two completely different viewpoints can live together? I mean, it was just perfect, and they couldn't have children, which was another thing that I wanted him to be with. I didn't want people who could have children and then have him be the only adopted child or something like that. It just so happened they had a girl already that they adopted, and in their neighborhood, I found out later, there were two other families adopting the same age as him in the same neighborhood. So he'd be going to school with other kids who were adopted...It was just like an amazing thing to find something like that. It was really good. And I met them on numerous occasions and I really, really liked them--Kim and Mark. It was only first names. I think it could have been an open adoption but at the time I was just so conflicted about it because as time went on I even wanted more and more to keep him, but I knew I couldn't, I knew I was making the right decision, but it's still so hard. My firstborn son--how do you reconcile not having him with you? It was very difficult, but at the same time it was wonderful because I knew he was gonna be so well taken care of and just the best start. So when it finally came time for it to happen, they weren't there for the birth, it kind of happened all of a sudden. Funny story, the way my water broke, I had a dream that someone kicked me between my legs, and when I woke up my water had broken so I think it was him kicking me. So off I went to the hospital and it was actually pretty quick considering they induced.
Paul: When a woman's water breaks, how much water comes out?
Valerie: A lot. Well, it kind of depends. Everyone sort of varies, but there is a lot of water. That's their padding, you know?
Paul: Yeah. I say like I know. 'Yeah! Of course!'
Valerie: Yeah, you know how it is, right? You know when you've drunk a 12-pack, you know how it feels.
Paul: It's like if you drank a 12-pack but you cared about somebody.
Valerie: What do you mean?
Paul: 'Cause when I would drink a 12-pack I didn't give a shit about anybody. So being a mother, you're full, but you care about somebody.
Valerie: Right, exactly. But actually by the time your water breaks you are so ready to just get it...Oh my God, the last month it's like 'Oh my God, how much longer do I have this baby inside? Don't you want to come out yet? Isn't it getting cramped in there?'
Paul: I can't imagine.
Valerie: It's something else. Definitely.
Paul: So you had the baby. Did you get to hold it?
Valerie: Yeah. But that is another funny part of the story. Another weird thing that happened was that he had a hole in his neck. It was a very small hole, and it was covered by a flap of skin.
Paul: A smoker, huh?
Valerie: Oh shit, you caught me.
Paul: I'm sorry. Again, my podcast. I get to destroy it where I see fit. So he had a hole in his neck.
Valerie: So what happened was, I did get to hold him for about an hour, but they didn't even explain to me what they thought the problem might have been, but I had him at a different hospital and they had to bring him into a Boston hospital, like a children's hospital, to make sure that it wasn't some severe issue that he was gonna have. And when I went to nursing school I found out all the different issues that can happen that that might be a sign of, and I was like 'Oh my God, no wonder why they whisked him away.' 'Cause you can have fistulas from your esophagus to your trachea, all sorts of things can happen. But anyway, so they took him into Boston, it turned out to be just a skin flap with a hole. It didn't penetrate any tubes, any airways, or anything. It was just like one of those things that they had to take him away from me and I didn't really get a chance to bond, thank goodness, because I know I would have changed my mind. Because I kept wanting to see him and the adoptive family was actually getting nervous that I was gonna change my mind, 'cause I just kept calling the adoption agency saying 'Can we have another meeting? I'd like to see him again. Can we arrange another meeting, I'd like to see him again.' And finally they were like "Val, you can't keep seeing him. There has to be a last time." And that was hard, to realize that there had to be a last time. But I did actually see him at the Boston hospital, I held him for a while there, but it's amazing the bond that happens when you get to hold the baby just after he's born. There's definitely a bonding that happens there, and oddly enough thankfully I wasn't able to have that because it would have probably been more difficult than it was.
Paul: So you got a little taste of it then.
Valerie: Yeah, I got to hold him for a little while, and then once a few days had gone by and we went into Boston after I was discharged, we got to go to the hospital to see him there and I held him for a good three hours or four hours. And he had a little breathing tube and you had to hold it up against his face...
Paul: So what do you think of today when you think of him?
Valerie: I just think of the whole experience just of giving birth to him, mainly the part of holding him at the Boston hospital and seeing him for the last time at the adoption agency. I don't think I took my eyes off him once. We have pictures of me holding him, of them holding him, and I don't think I was looking away from him for a minute.
Paul: And you've never seen him since then? 'Cause isn't it up to him if he wants to meet you?
Valerie: Yeah. I used to get pictures more often and then they kind of tapered off with that, because they live their life and I was actually oddly enough, and this is where the guilt comes in again, I had to put it out of my mind to get through school, to get on with my life, I had to kind of forget a little bit. So when the pictures stopped coming with the frequency that they used to come with, I wanted to see him and at the same time I didn't. And my mother--
Paul: And how did she ruin this?
Valerie: Well let me tell you. It's not that she ruined it, but she was always on about "The pictures. The pictures." And it was like 'Wouldn't you rather have him here? why are you so wanting these pictures and reminding us of the fact that he's not here with us?' It was probably me being more fucked-up than her. I wanted to see him and at the same time I'm like 'Well I'd rather not see him in pictures. It's actually the pictures that are reminding me how much I used to suck. How much I sucked at this. How I couldn't have him with me and how he's not with me now.' And every year it was a reminder of that time, and as wonderful as it was to know that he was happy and healthy, I knew that was going to continue and I didn't need a constant reminder of it, you know what I mean?
Paul: Do you feel like there is a part of you that is kind of injured by it, or that will always feel like a little part of you missing?
Valerie: Definitely. He was beautiful and I wanted to have him with me, and he's not, and it's difficult. I recently got pictures of him and there it all was again.
Paul: He's how old now?
Valerie: He's 14 in November.
Paul: Well, I think what you did is really commendable, because that took a lot of sacrifice on your part, to go through that and to me you may feel like you never got to be a mother, but you made three of the most important decisions in his life and you made them selflessly. So that's a pretty good contribution for the short amount of time you were his mother, you made very loving, giving decisions. So that's my take on it.
Valerie: Well thank you for saying that 'cause sometimes people will make you feel like that's not the case. I don't tell a lot of people about it. I used to be open about it with certain people who were just friends because I felt good about it, I felt like I had made the right decision, and look at the great start I gave him. And as much as a painful experience as it was for me it was wonderful for him but a lot of people see it differently.
Paul: I don't think any person should ever judge that is not carrying that baby. I don't. Because I don't know what decision I would make. I don't know if I could ever bring a baby to term, I don't know what I would do. And to try and make somebody feel bad for having an abortion or putting a baby up for adoption or having your life be a fucking mess and deciding to have the baby and keep it. As much as I would like to say I know what I would do in that situation, I would do the right thing because there is a clear right thing...I can't imagine the shit that is flying through your mind in that time and I think the less people can judge each other and make people feel bad about it...I think there's enough judging going on in our lives right now, but you know, I think if we just try to keep our side of the street clean that's the best we can hope for and try to keep our nose out of other people's business.
Valerie: Yeah. I agree with that, the judgmental nature of people astounds me. And not just for my case. I mean I even had to come to terms with the fact that just because I did it this way that doesn't mean that someone who didn't was making the wrong decision. I see the 16-year-olds with the babies and I think 'My God. Is that really the best decision?' But it is for them and that's what matters.
Paul: Or the woman who had an abortion. I can't imagine the pain that somebody must feel that is second-guessing that decision. And I know there are pro-life people listening to this right now going "She should feel..." No, nobody should feel pain. Nobody should feel guilty for the rest of their life about something, in my opinion.
Valerie: I know. What drives me crazy is people who think that having an abortion is some great birth control method for people. I don't think that is what people want, they have to carry that with them just as much as any other decision that they make. And I don't think people realize that when they are holding signs up saying "You're a murderer." I mean, come on, really? You have no idea what it's like.
Paul: Yeah, my feeling on that is if your house is full of adopted children, and you're going and volunteering at an orphanage, maybe you get to have an opinion on that, maybe. But until that time, shut the fuck up. There are so many unwanted children in this world, so much child abuse, because people are ill-equipped. So I already feel like I've said too much, like I've put my foot in my mouth about every single thing, so I'm already feeling like I've weighed in too much. But from the emails that you and I sent back and forth I just felt like yours was a story that other people needed to hear, and especially probably other women out there that went through something similar and are experiencing guilt or loneliness or feeling like they made a huge mistake, or whatever the thousands of emotions that must go through your head. I wanna thank you for being so open and honest about it.
Valerie: Well thank you. That's nice to talk about it because I don't really get a chance to too often and it is a really heavy decision to make when you're in the moment. and then afterwards, the years that follow, just being able to talk about it and get feedback from people who are really non-judgmental. It's very important.
Paul: Yeah. There's nothing more important in life than having friends that love you for who you are and for all the idiosyncrasies we have, all the flaws that we have, all the decisions we've made, right or wrong, there's nothing like that feeling of somebody saying "Hey man, I love you." Especially when you hurt a friend, the friend that takes you back because they know that it was an error in judgment, that this isn't a lifelong pattern of abuse on your part, but they let you have those moments of humanity. I was playing hockey Sunday night and we got stuck on a line with this guy who didn't pass, and I threw a 5-year-old tantrum. I threw my stick, I was yelling, the whole time I'm going 'Really??' And I knew part of it was because I'm going through this shit with my mom and it's painful and I'm jumping out of my skin sometimes, and so I apologized to the guy I yelled at, and then I forgave myself for having an outburst instead of then going to the 'Oh God, you're so pathetic, et cetera', and I had a great rest of the night.
Valerie: It's important to forgive yourself.
Paul: It really is. It's so hard. So I hope you can find peace in what you've done and I think you made a great decision, personally. I think you're a wretched person, but I think you made a great decision.
Valerie: The death blow. Thanks.
Paul: You're Catholic. I can't leave you up on a high note, I gotta bring you down.
Valerie: I'm a recovering Catholic.
Paul: Gonna Send you off on the shrimp boat with tears in your eyes. Actually you guys don't catch shrimp, do you? It'd be more like lobster, right?
Valerie: Lobster, yeah.
Paul: Shrimp would be a Southern...Well, Valerie, thank you for your time and it was great talking to you. We'll chat again sometime. Do you feel like you got to say everything you wanted to say?
Valerie: I think so. Sometimes, though...the conflicting feelings of feeling like you're passing up a responsibility, and I just hope people can see and make that decision without feeling like they're...Because that was a piece of it, I wasn't ready to have him, and as much as it was a great decision for him, it was a good decision for me, too, and that brings up selfish feelings, you feel like you're being selfish, but...
Paul: But you weren't depriving him of responsibility, you were just handing him off to somebody who could be more responsible, which to me makes you responsible. But the ego is so insidious, it will find a way to make you feel bad about something.
Valerie: Yes indeed.
Paul: So hopefully you can recognize that that's just your ego attacking you and that's not reality.
Valerie: Right. I've been able to kind of come to terms with that, it comes up every so often again, but I think that's life. You think you've packed it away and boom! there it is again.
Paul: Well, have a good night and I can't wait until you're an RN. I'm sure you can't wait either, but...Thanks Val. I'll talk to you.
Valerie: Thank you.
Paul: Many thanks to Valerie. I hope you guys got something out of that interview, I know I certainly did. I've never really gotten inside the head, or the soul if you will, of somebody who's had to make that painful decision. Before we take it out with some surveys I want to remind you guys there's a couple different ways to support the show if you feel so inclined. You can support it financially by going to the website mentalpod.com and making a one-time PayPal donation or my favorite, becoming a monthly donor for as little as five bucks a month. You just set your credit card information up on PayPal and then it takes it out every month until your card expires or you decide to cancel it. It's super simple to do and that money means the world to me. I don't know if you can see but I just teared up a little bit. It really does mean a lot to me. You can also support the show financially by using the Amazon search portal on our home page to shop at Amazon, and then they give us a couple of nickels. It doesn't cost you anything. You can support us non-financially by going to iTunes and giving us a good rating, and by spreading the word through social media. I'm told that the Reddit subpage isn't up yet for Mental Illness Happy Hour, but go join the forum, man. There’s so many people sharing great personal stuff and connecting to each other on the forum, it’s a beautiful thing to behold.
Let’s get to the surveys. This is from the Struggle in a Sentence survey filled out by a guy who calls himself John R. About his depression he writes “Spiritually hollow. Life-draining, hopeless and hapless.” About his anxiety “People can read my mind, see through me. I shrink, stammer, forget names of best friends and intros.” About his alcohol and drug addiction “Chemical switch everyday, 4 pm. Lately better, not daily.” About his OCD “House is spotless, drawers are a mess. For others, drawers are organized, house is a mess.” About his OCD behaviors he engages in picking, hurting, burning, and light cutting just to feel.” About his anger issues he writes “Feels like I could burst every day. Burst every artery. Psychotic. Happens once a year and a computer, power tool, something must die. I’m scared what would happen if somebody triggered that. I have no doubt I could kill.” And then any ideas to make the podcast better? He writes “I am by all standards successful. Educated, big house, fancy car, all the toys, a millionaire, self-made in a decade. But I’m hollow and I spend most of my time alone. Thanks for filling some of the emptiness with your humor and soul and the beautiful people you interview on your show. A big hug to you.” Well a big hug right back at you, John, and I’m so grateful for the people who have all the outside stuff that come forward and let other people know that that alone can’t fill them up.
This is also from the Struggle in a Sentence survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Painted Lady, and about her anxiety she writes “The other shoe, a size 5962, is about to drop directly on my head.” You know the bad thing about having a size 5962 shoe is when you go to the shoe store they’re out of it and they ask if you’d like to try a 5961 and it’s always a little tight but you buy it anyway. Her comments about anything to make the podcast better she writes “Most of the guests I’ve heard are recovering from their problems and handling their shit pretty well. I wouldn’t mind hearing from someone in the thick of it, struggling to get by. I know it may seem depressing, but even half-healthy looks so far away.” Thank you, Painted Lady, for sharing that. I think I should do that, too, I really do. My fear sometimes is that because this is a public thing that I’m going to exploit or feel like I’m exploiting somebody when they’re in the middle of something in that crucial period where they don’t really know…I guess if I felt like they were really committed to helping themselves and reaching out for help with a professional or a support group, I’d be cool with that, but I think it would have to be the right person. The interview with Mike Carano, if you haven’t listened to that one, that’s a good one for somebody who’s in the middle of some pretty intense stuff.
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Ruby. She is in her 30s, straight, she qualifies “I’m straight but I’m also sexually attracted to women and only masturbate to lesbian porn. I don’t know what that makes me.” That makes you part of a very large consuming lobby, I guess. What I’m trying to say is a lot of people enjoy girl-on-girl porn. She’s in her 30s and was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. Have you ever been the victim of sexual abuse? She writes “Some stuff happened but I don’t know if it counts. When I was 11 years old my mother was in the hospital and my aunt and uncle came to stay in our house to take care of me and my younger siblings. One night while my aunt was in the shower my uncle asked me to come lay in bed with him. I went and took the book I was reading with me even though I felt very apprehensive. I laid by him in the bed but didn’t put my book down even though he asked me to a couple times. He didn’t touch me but I was very confused as to why he wanted me there and I was so scared he was going to touch me. I prayed for my aunt to hurry up and after several agonizing minutes we heard the shower stop and my uncle told me I should go. I went to my bed shaken and I cried myself to sleep.” I’m not a mental health professional, but that sounds like sexual abuse, maybe there’s another word for it, but that’s fucking traumatic. You didn’t feel safe in your own house, and let’s remember this isn’t a little adult you that’s a foot shorter, this is an 11-year-old child who doesn’t know how to advocate for herself, who doesn't know what’s polite and impolite, and he took advantage of that. Don’t underestimate that. Deepest, darkest thoughts: “Being around my parents and siblings is a chore most of the time. I love them but for some reason being around them is emotionally exhausting.” Deepest, darkest secrets: “When I was 15 I seduced one of my little brother’s friends who was 12. Rarely a day passes that I don’t think about what I did and I have extreme guilt over it. I don’t know if it would be considered molestation but I fear that it was and the thought of that makes me want to die.” My first thought is forgive yourself because wanting to die is not gonna make your life any better or any better for the people around you. I would go to talk to a therapist about this, maybe get in some type of support group for people that have experienced some type of sexual violation. And I think it depends on what you were like at 15 and what he was like at 12, because if he hadn’t hit puberty yet and you had all the physical attributes of a full-grown woman, which some girls do at 15, then I would say that was probably damaging to him, but I don’t know, maybe I should just shut my mouth ‘cause this is one of those things that’s right on the line to me, but if you can get in contact with this guy, maybe talk about it. And I have a feeling that what your uncle did to you fed into what you engaged in with that kid who was younger than you. But please be compassionate with yourself because telling yourself that you’re a piece of shit, you clearly haven’t done anything since then, or at least you didn’t mention it there, so go easy on yourself. Alright, sexual fantasies most powerful to you: “In my fantasies I’m usually being dominated by an authoritative male figure type, he’s usually telling me to masturbate while he watches. Sometimes in these fantasies he's telling me what a slut I am and in others he's telling me how good and sweet I am." I relate to that one a lot, by the way. Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies? "No, I have a hard time telling my partner anything about myself sexually because I feel like he would be threatened by it and get angry or repulsed. We've been in a relationship since high school and all these years I've felt I had to hide my sexual desires from him, especially the desires I have about females." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself? "My sexual fantasies don't bother me. I don't feel any internal shame about them even though I can't share them with my partner. The things that happened to me in the past and the things I did in the past that I keep secret make me feel a pretty heavy shame that is always with me. I feel like I am disgusting and a bad person, and I'm afraid that that feeling will never go away." Well I think if you don't do something to process it, it will probably never go away, but I think with processing and being willing to do the work that's necessary to process stuff, I think the chances are really good that you could find some peace with both of those things. But I'm constantly struck by the relationship between people's childhood trauma and any sexual acting-out that they do and I often think that that fantasy of wanting somebody to watch you masturbate, really at the core of it, because I get that fantasy coming up quite frequently, and it's really not about the sex. It's about at our deepest core somebody wanting to see us at our most vulnerable, where we could be judged the most harshly, and that they might accept us and even better, be turned on. So I think it's about the turn-on of somebody seeing right into the core of your soul and that makes me feel better about it when I'm jerking off at the mall. That was a joke, by the way.
This is from the First Day in Therapy survey. We don't have names on this one, this is filled out by a female who's between 18 and 25, she's a client. What brought you to therapy? "The first round was against my will, it was due to relatively severe self-injury. When I went on my own as an adult it was because of what I now know is PTSD." Did you have any fears associated with starting therapy? "Being judged, locked up in a hospital, abandoned, ignored." Did any of these come true? "I did have a therapist that over-reacted on a number of occasions. If I said I was struggling with the urge to self-harm she would insist we went to the hospital. Way to teach coping skills!" As a client, what worked best for you in therapy? "HUMOR! And a relaxed environment where I feel like I have control--lights, seating, etc." What were your initial impressions of your therapist? "My current therapist was gentle, open to any and all questions from the first time we ever met. She has been wonderful. Her humor is nearly as sick as mine and she showed that side of herself from the first day, obviously having picked up on my gnarly sense of humor." Do you feel like you can be completely honest with your therapist? She writes "I certainly feel like that." Anything you would like to share with a new group of therapists? She writes "Don't be afraid to be yourself, ask questions, and check in on how you're doing. Be a person first. The worst kind of therapist is someone who is trying to be a therapist." Thank you for that. I wish there were names to go with these so I could thank them by name.
This is the same survey, filled out by a woman between 26-35, depression and anxiety brought her in. She was afraid that it wouldn't help and she writes "As I had done therapy before and didn't feel better." Did any of your fears come true? "No. I'm currently working with a really great therapist and can actually see my improvements." What has worked best for you in therapy? "It's been helpful to have a very intelligent therapist who has used mindfulness skills during therapy and then I practice them at home as homework. We do lifespan integration and that has brought feeling. I feel safe with my therapist." What were your initial impressions of your therapist? "She was very likeable and professional. My previous therapists tried too hard to get me to like them. My current therapist isn't focused on that, she truly just wants to work to help me." Do you feel you can be completely honest with your therapist? "I've been very honest but sometimes it's been hard to be completely honest. It takes time." What would you like to share with a group of new therapists? "Being patient and gentle has been really helpful for me because I tend to be hard on myself for not being better yet. Also a sense of humor. It's so refreshing to have a therapist who so seamlessly can insert a timely comedic relief (not every time) when needed." I agree. Although there would be nothing worse than a therapist who was "on".
Same survey, filled out by a woman under 18. For some reason, 75% of the people who take the therapy survey are women, and I know that this show in general has a little bit more of a female listenership than male, but come on dudes. Fucking pull your weight. Take this survey. She's under 18, what brought her to therapy: "I still wet the bed at 14 years old, moved in with my mom, parents were divorced, so she said I could go see a shrink. I saw him two times a month after school. Finally my mom realized it was a psychological problem." Did you have any fears with starting therapy? "I was afraid to tell the shrink why I was there. I was finally able to tell him of my shitty childhood and I think having someone impartial to talk to helped a lot. I didn't think he was particularly empathetic, he was rather dry and uninvolved. The help was in me expressing myself." That is incredibly articulate and insightful for somebody so young. My experience with psychiatrists has been the same way. I'm not a fan of talk therapy with psychiatrists. They're great for prescribing meds but talk therapy, there's nothing like support groups or therapists. Of the fears you described, did any come true? "No, I was afraid of taking the bus in the big city, I was afraid he'd tell my mom what I told him--I was still in keeping secrets mode. I was pretty damn shut down." What worked best for you in therapy? "I guess having someone not related to me, not emotionally invested, helped me. It was the first time I think anyone actually heard me." Boy, there is nothing like feeling heard and seen. It is life-changing. What were your initial impressions of your therapist? "It was a man, which at the time I guess I had no preference, being the first time I had ever seen a shrink. No, nothing was unsettling." Do you feel you can be completely honest with your therapist? "I was too embarrassed to tell him I wet the bed. I thought it was the worst secret a kid could have, utterly embarrassing. Such self-hate stemmed from it because I couldn't control it." I honestly can't think of a less shameful secret than wetting the bed to go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. We should all be so lucky that that is our issue. Although, not in practicality, but in terms of talking about it. What would you like to share with a new group of therapists? "I think the best thing a therapist can do is give empathy, help the person understand themselves and help them feel safe and healed." Wow. I bet you'd make a great therapist, whoever you are that filled that out.
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, a lot of surveys filled out by women on this go-round. We were a little light on the men taking it. So dudes, put down the video game, stop jerking off, do a little laundry, and come fill out the survey. As I broadly paint the most horrific stereotype of men ever. This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by Gemma. She's in her 20s, she's asexual, was raised in a stable and safe, very religious environment. Was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "I think about suicide all the time. I have issues with acceptance from God and friends and family, so I could never attempt it because of the extreme fear of what they would think of me, even though I would be dead. Stupid, I know." Deepest, darkest secrets: "My deepest secret is that I somehow became a prostitute to pay my way through college. It started off waitressing at Hooters, and I got a tip that was above a generous amount and one thing led to another. I was on a plane to Chicago for a weekend and was paid for it. I felt like Pretty Woman. I could actually pay bills and college and not just put one gallon of gas in my car at a time. However, that weekend led to employment at a jack shack." I've never heard of a place called a jack shack but I think I can figure out what goes down there. "I never knew if it was going to be a hand job or full service. I hated it and the worst part was that I had to embody a slutty/porno mindset to get through it. I was so good at compartmentalizing that after the night of sleeping with a variety of men I had money, I'd go drink, forget about it, then do it again the next weekend. I now have a very prominent job in society and found a way out but I would never tell a soul for I can still never have sex without it being an act. I hate sex." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "I think I could only ever be turned on by men that are older than me and have some type of power." Would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend? "Most of my close friends know I date older guys, but they don't know why." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself? "I'm disgusted. I know why I like older men, because I was trained to be submissive and take it whatever way. It's the only familiar way and I'm good at it." WellI'm gonna put my broken record on and say it would be really good to process a lot of that stuff instead of trying to hold that inside, especially if it's affecting how you feel about yourself. And anybody that's fantasizing about going and doing a job as a professional sex worker, I would really think about what she said and maybe read a couple of books by women or men who've been in that line of work.
This is also from the therapy survey, filled out by a woman who is betweeen 26-35. What brought you to therapy? "After a few months of listening to the podcast I finally felt like seeking the help of a therapist was not abnormal or a huge red C for Crazy being emblazoned on my chest. I've had manic, compulsive behavior since I was a child but I was never allowed to seek help either by family members or my previous partners." Wow. That is a bummer when you wanna get help but people shame you into not getting help. A big fuck them going out the airwaves. This is not broadcast, there are no airwaves, Paul. Any fears associated with starting therapy? "I was afraid that the instant I walked out of the office I would have some type ofmind-numbing prescription in hand or that the preliminary diagnosis would be something much worse than I expected." Did any of these fears come true? "No. I felt comfortable with my new therapist and knew almost instantly that I'd made the right decision by going. Instead of walking out with a prescription I walked out feeling better about being me and having two new books to read. It was a very different experience that what I had expected." I love hearing that. What worked best for you in therapy? "Since I have OCD, having some homework from my therapist (now that I'm typing this I realize that she did that on purpose) gave me an attainable goal to work on before my next meeting with her. It made me feel like I was being proactive about controlling my feelings for the first time instead of just being reactive and losing control." What were your initial impressions of your therapist? "My first impression of her was that she reminded me of my ex-mother-in-law, which was totally horrible at first. But once I started talking to her and telling her my story, the things she had to say made me feel like she was an old friend that completely understood what I was going through. At the end of the session I couldn't wait to come back, which I didn't expect at all." Can you be completely honest with your therapist? "Absolutely. By the end of my first session she knew things about me that I'd never shared with my husband. Having someone that I could be truly honest with without feeling like I was being judged was exactly what I needed to see the walls I built around myself." Man, do I love reading that. And I love that there's probably somebody listening tonight that's on the fence about going to therapy and one of those therapy things that I read is gonna give you that nudge and is going to change your fucking life.
This is a very rarely filled-out survey, but sometimes I get some good ones here. This is from the Vacation Arguments survey. I've always found something inherently ridiculous about arguing while on vacation. What are your most memorable vacation arguments? And this is filled out by Maddy who is 22. My dad has always traveled a lot for work and belonged to most of those airport lounges. Our family was coming back from a ridiculously luxurious vacation in Mallorca, Spain, and apparently it only took one plane flight before my dad was back to his normal, bi-polar self. I remember him trying to get us into a flight lounge, though according to the poor lady behind the counter my dad was not actually a member of this particular club. As a 10-year-old I remember feeling so much pity for this receptionist. This woman was not paid well enough to deal with this snotty monster. He had no right to be acting that way. I wanted to apologize to her. Eventually the situation escalated and my father said in his scariest tone 'I'm going to ask you a simple question. Are we or are we not welcome here?' When she replied she sounded so fatigued: 'No sir, no you are not.' As the anguish of being refused ruffled his feathers even further, he told me to put out my arms in the same way I would if I were helping him carry firewood into our house. Forearms level, palms up, elbows together. I was about to ask why when I noticed a bowl of complimentary oranges on the counter. My dad, in an attempt to get back at this poor woman for turning us away, piled free oranges onto my scrawny, sun burnt forearms until I couldn't carry any more. I looked at the woman the whole time as if to let her know that he does this to everyone. We didn't even eat the oranges. Twelve years later it all seems so absurd. I tell this story with a smile on my face despite all the fear I had at the time. Telling this story also makes me want to eat oranges." Thank you, Maddy. If that's Maddy that I met in Portland, God bless you. She helped put together a meeting at Lewis and Clark College and we did a group recording of a bunch of listeners which I hope to air at some point.
Hey, a survey filled out by a dude! This is the First Day in Therapy, filled out by a guy between 26-35. What brought you into therapy? "Excessive thoughts, overwhelming anxiety, fear of the future, depression." Any fears associated with starting it? "That I wouldn't be able to communicate the feelings and thoughts I was having." Did any of those fears come true? "Yes, but over time I was able to find a good therapist who was able to help me find the words to describe my issues." What worked best for you in therapy? "Medication, reassurance, mental organization skills, breathing techniques." What were your initial impressions of your therapist? "I've seen seven different therapists. Some turned me off instantly, with their attitudes, speech patterns, etc. Others started out well but eventually made me feel as if they had a preconceived notion of what was wrong and how to fix it. This made me feel as if they weren't listening to me when I raised concerns about treatment. My current therapist is finally offering me the right combination of listening, asking the right questions, and explaining their thoughts instead of just making notes and expecting me to just play along." Do you feel you can be completely honest with your therapist? "I feel as if I both could and should be completely honest with my therapist, but I am still not. I don't know why I feel that way or why I act contrary to that feeling." My thought is just from what you've described here is there's a fear of losing control by giving yourself into the stuff that they suggest or by revealing the innermost part of yourself. I think that would be a good thing to note that's going on inside you. I know I'm a fucking control freak that is afraid everybody's gonna walk on my soul with golf shoes, but I can tell you opening up and getting vulnerable with safe people and having them accept me is the greatest feeling I've ever experienced. Anything you'd like to share with new therapists? "Learn to ask questions, which gets anxious and shy patients talking. Let us ramble about unrelated topics, it's usually leading us somewhere eventually. Some of us may not want only drugs or only therapy, but most of us want drugs to deliver immediate results so we can live our lives until the therapy can get to a place where we can survive without it." Thank you for that, dude.
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, and I wanted to read part of this, filled out by a woman who calls herself JuJuBe, she's in her 20s. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened but I don't know if it counts as sexual abuse. When I was about five my dad took me to our family pediatrician. I had the flu, I think. Instead of my mom, who was away doing some other family stuff, the doctor asked my dad to leave the room and then he pulled my panties down, held my pussy lips pinched in each hand, and shook or trembled them. From his demeanor I think he was looking to see if my hymen had been broken." Oh, God. That is...I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how you check for a broken hymen, but that does not sound like the way you check for a broken hymen. That sounds like he was a pedophile who was using his cover as a pediatrician. But I would talk to a doctor and ask them. She writes "My parents are educated, compassionate, loving, and supportive and would never have let anything like that happen. When I think of the incident later I'm so embarrassed for my brilliant, loving father who let anything like this happen. Cut to age 17--my dad has rage and control issues. I'm on a nine day bus tour around Norway with the two of them, a month or two to go until I start college, we've been bickering and he's been putting her down like he does, 'You're trash, I'd fire you if I could,' throughout. On a free day in Oslo we follow him on his quest to find the Nobel Prize museum. We walk around and through and end up down the streets of Oslo, finding nothing. Furious, he announces we are going back to the hotel and going to sleep. Them in a shared bed, me on a cot on the floor. The day is done. My mom is talking to me in her singsong good times voice in the dark, and I hear a wet slapping sound. It's fast and doesn't slow down or stop, and my mom and I continue to make small talk. A little louder, now. I try to convince her that I've suddenly falling asleep by yawning loudly and not responding to anything else. The slapping continues then ends. I now know my dad was just taking the day's stress out on himself, which is not okay, but at the time I thought he was forcing my mom to lay there, hence her even-toned voice, while he fucked her." Both of those make my skin crawl, what the doctor did and what your dad did. Because your dad had to know you heard that, and for him to not care that you heard that sound, because a 17-year-old knows what that sound is or can probably figure it out, that is just a big 'I don't give a shit about anyone else but me and what I'm feeling'.
This is from the Shouldn't Feel This Way survey, filled out by a guy who calls himself Pittsburgh Guy, he's straight, in his 30s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. What would you like people to say at your funeral? "That I was a loving, caring, smart son and dad." How does writing that make you feel? "Happy and sad, slightly tearful." If you had a time machine, how would you use it? "I would go back and not marry my ex-wife. I would also lift weights earlier in life and would not feel like I needed someone." What do you feel that you don't feel you should feel? "I don't feel excited about my future with my girlfriend and her four kids but I'm terrified that I won't be able to support a household of six kids. I have two, 50% of the time. I'm worried the kids will all resent me and that I can't move past this feeling of fear. I have anxiety and have had bad relationships, so I'm very fearful." The reason I wanted to read that is my first thought is the episode we recorded with Katie Palacio, she was moved into a blended family as a kid, and they had money but the thing that really fucked with her was the parents were split. Her mom still loved her but her stepdad resented her and her mom would be pulled onto her stepfather's side because she didn't want to displease him. So I think way more important than money, if you're putting food on the table and you're making your rent, I think your kids would much rather have your attention and your intimacy than the latest and the best toys. Maybe not when they're 12, but when they're 20 and 25 they'll realize how important it was that you looked them in the eyes and you really listened and they felt heard and seen. So that's my thought, that that's what you should focus on, to try to be present with those kids. And I'm not a parent, so easier said than done. I can't imagine what it's like supporting four kids, let alone six, so you're fucked. That's what I'm basically telling you. Sometimes I feel bad when I make a joke that's dark because think somebody's gonna think I'm serious. I should just stop apologizing, stop qualifying, Jesus Christ. I never did this when I was on stage.
This is from the Shouldn't Feel This Way survey, filled out by another dude, it's a sausage party. This is filled out by Jessie, he's straight, he's in his 20s, was raised in an environment that was a little dysfunctional. What would you like people to say about you at your funeral? "That they knew who I was." You know, Jesse, when I read that it was like a lightning bolt right through my soul, 'cause that is what I've wanted my whole life, and as I was talking about earlier I think that's often what my sexual fantasies are about, an extension of wanting to be seen and accepted. How does writing that make you feel? "Alone. I've worked so hard at keeping others out there that the mere idea of someone ever saying that they knew me seems impossible." If you had a time machine, how would you use it? "I'd like to see my funeral, just to know how many people would show up, and hey, if no one does at least I'll be there." That makes me laugh. Write as many of these as you feel like: I'm supposed to feel ___ about ___ but I don't. I feel ____. "I'm supposed to feel proud about how much I've accomplished going from a high school failure to a junior college honor student but I don't. I feel more alone than ever. I should be celebrating my achievements with friends and family but instead I'm without friends and living with a family that is emotionally distant. I'm supposed to feel excited about the possibility of being accepted into a university but I don't. I feel scared. For most of my life I have been unable to make any sort of connection with others. How the hell am I supposed to survive in an environment where making connections to your fellow peers is practically a requirement?" How does it feel to write your feelings out? "Worried. I've become so used to internalizing my feelings that even thinking about writing how I feel scares the shit out of me." Do you feel you're abnormal for feeling what you do? "Yes and no. I know that there are others with social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder. I know, thanks to your show, that I'm not alone in dealing with intrusive thoughts. What I don't know is if this way that I internalize all of my feelings is normal. Most people that I've spoken to on forums have all mentioned that they had at least one person who they could talk to when they needed to, be it a spouse, family member, friend, or even a therapist. Everyone seems to have someone that they could fall back on, a support system. I've never had that so instead I've allowed every feeling I've had to fester within me until it is scarred over." Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself? "Yes. It would be nice to know that I'm not as alone as I think I am." Well guess what, Jessie? The very next survey tha tI printed out, I'm gonna read it to you. This is filled out by a woman named Jewel. I wonder if it's the singer? No, this is Jewels. Yeah, the singer's taking your survey, Paul. Fucking egomaniac. She is straight, she's in her 30s, could be Jewel. What would you like people to say about you at your funeral? "I want people to share stories of all my ridiculous moments and laugh until they pee their pants. I do not want a funeral, though, because they are creepy and I don't want anyone looking at or touching my dead body. I want my body laid to rest in the earth, with no coffin to keep me from the dirt. If this can't happen, then I will be cremated and my ashes spread somewhere beautiful, I haven't decided where yet." I would actually like my ashes spread on the sandwich of somebody I hate. Something nice and sticky, like if they had one piece of bread up and it's just mayonnaise. Have all my closest friends run up and just douse that fucker. How does writing that make you feel? "It makes me feel good because i want the people who are going to mourn me to feel good and to have their last memories of me to be good ones." I would agree. I would want my funeral to be a celebration but I'd also like to know that deep inside everybody was dying. I want it all. If you had a time machine, how would you use it? "I would go back to when my parents were first dating so I could observe their relationship up until they were divorced. I want to be able to fill in the gaps in their relationship, as well as my childhood, since I can remember almost nothing from before the divorce at age nine, except for the events that were captured in photographs. I'm supposed to feel love for Dad but I don't. I feel sad and angry. I'm supposed to feel good about myself but I don't. I feel disappointed and small. I'm supposed to feel relaxed and happy about hanging out with my friends but I don't. I feel anxious, afraid, uneasy, boring, like I have to try hard to be able to make conversation even though it should be easy because I love them and I want to be there." Boy, I don't know what's going on, Jewels, but I have felt like that so many times and that was when my depression had its claws in me. So I don't know if you're suffering from depression but that might be a good thing to look into. How does writing that make you feel? She writes "Uneasy. I'm so good at keeping things locked away--Jessie, are you listening?--in the numb zone that I'm afraid to try to let them out. I'm not sure what is in there." Do you feel abnormal for feeling what you do? "No. I think that a lot of people feel the way I do." ." Would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself? "Yes, it would." Well, Jewels and Jessie, if you both contact me and you agree to it, I will put you in touch with each other via email. These surveys are taken anonymously so I don't have your email addresses. And please don't email me and pose as Jessie or Jewels. I like how I immediately go to the place of my listeners are just skeevy fucking people that can't be trusted. That would be bad that I pour my heart out and all my shame and secrets to people that I think are skeevy and can't be trusted.
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a guy named Pauly. He is in his 20s, was raised in a stable and safe environment. Never been sexually abused. He's straight, but he qualifies it "Straight but I have no drive to achieve anything with anyone. My experience so far in life is that sex is a physically enjoyable act but nothing I can't live without." Deepest, darkest thoughts: "It's cliché, but I often think that the old quip 'Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out' might be the best option for this world. I feel as if I cause nothing but pain and heartache in those who I allow to get close to me, even when their words and empirical evidence shows otherwise. I'm afraid that I'll be dead in the next year or two and no one will notice or care. Some may even rejoice." Deepest, darkest secrets: "I seriously consider if the world would be better off without me on a regular basis. The answer is almost always 'Yes', but that is overwhelmed by thoughts of 'Fuck what is best for the world. Too much cool shit is going to happen in the future and I'll be damned if I'm gonna miss it.' Well I still have those thought, it's been a long time since I've considered ever doing anything about it. I've sat on my bed and stared at a loaded pistol while drinking a bottle of whiskey on more than one occasion." My first thought as I read this, Pauly, is the drinking a bottle of whiskey is probably related to the feelings of suicide. When I was drinking at my heaviest I thought about putting a gun in my mouth about once an hour, so if you wanna do anything about what's going on and try to get out of that, maybe think about going someplace for your drinking, or talk to somebody about it. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "Watching someone I know have sex, with or without their knowledge, live or on tape. None of those details matter, it's just something about the taboo of knowing one or more of the people involved." Would you ever consider telling a close friend? "Yes. My friends know." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings? "I know it's abnormal, whatever that means, but I don't care. It doesn't affect my life or relationship, so there's no reason to change it." Thank you for that, Pauly. And I hope you come out of that feeling of not wanting to be around, and I think 95% of the people that listen to the podcast have gone through that. I heard somebody say at my support group tonight that our lives are all different on the outside but so similar to the place where we wound up on the inside, and that really stuck with me. 1:42
This is from the Shame and Secrets survey, filled out by a woman who calls herself Daisy, she's straight, she's in her 40s, was raised in a totally chaotic environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Some stuff happened but I don't know if it counts. In the summer of '79, when I used to go to the beach with a family that my mother paid to take care of me, there was an older boy "man" that would come with us. There was never enough seats so someone always had to lay in the back of the wagon. It was always him and one of us girls, and he would like to play "What's at the end of the happy trail", you know, the dark hairline that starts below the belly button and ends up at the fucking penis. He also got to babysit us sometimes and we would play the game in the dark closet 'You show me yours and I'll show you mine', but that's one of the many." That's sexual abuse. If you were a kid and he was an older boy or a man, that's my thought. I like how I've appointed myself the Judge Judy of inappropriate fingering. I'd like that on my gravestone. No, I'm sorry, I'm not getting a tombstone, I'm having my ashes spread at Subway. Deepest, darkest thoughts: "Just fucking leaving. Packing what I need and disappearing. Letting all of it go. Doing what I want when I want and not needing to answer to fucking anyone. My whole life has been making sure everyone else is okay--'Are you ok? Are you ok?'--I'm screaming in my fucking head." Deepest, darkest secrets: "I am my mother's only child. My dad left when I was seven. He wanted me aborted and I have raised my mom since then. I remember the day my dad left. He looked up at me as I was looking through the banister railing and he asked me 'Do you want to come with me or stay with your mom?' and I said "Daddy, I want to come with you," and he said 'No, I think it's best if you stay with your mother.'" Then why the fuck did he ask you? "He left then and moved back to New York. To me it was the farthest he could get away from me. Now after 35 years he has decided he wants me back in his life. His wife has died and now he has no one. He's moved back to California and acts like nothing ever happened. He even said to me that I've never called him, so what was he to do (I'm a fucking child)? Sometimes I feel so fucked up. Everyone needs me, it's all up to me, none of this matters. I don't know what my deepest, darkest secrets are. My hate? My disdain? Here's one--when my mother passes away I don't think I will cry and will probably feel a sense of relief. Same with my dad. He's moving here and is trying to buy a mobile home in Hemmett so he has something to give me when he died. Are you fucking kidding me?" Daisy, my heart goes out to you. You guyus know what a piece of work my mom is, that's pretty much what her mom did to her. Her dad abandoned her, m9ved to California, and then when she was seven her mom left to go work in New York, and left her to be raised by another family, and it fucked her up. And then my grandmother moved back into my mom's life when my grandmother was like 65, like "Hey, I'm back! I wanna see the grandkids!" and my mom was too Catholic to say "You fucking filthy cunt. You abandoned me and now you wanna come live off my husband's money? Fuck you." But she never did that. Instead the anger came out in other ways. At least that's my take on it. Who knows where the truth is, but don't be my mom, Daisy. Draw some boundaries. Deal with your anger. Don't do shit because you're afraid people are gonna think you're selfish. You know who usually thinks that other people are selfish, or obsess about other people being selfish? People who are themselves selfish. Most people that aren't selfish have compassion for other people but know how to detach from it. So your dad sounds like a fucking guy that's incapable of putting himself in someone else's shoes, 'cause if he could he would know how much it broke your heart what he did. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you, she writes "Why does it have to revolve around sexual fantasies, but ok, here it goes. When my is fucking me or pleasuring me I like to think that someone is watching from outside the window, getting off. Or when my husband is eating me out from behind with my ass in the air I like to think it's my favorite girlfriend. Yeah, I like that. I like watching pornos of girls getting themselves off. I've been using a vibrator since I was probably 10 or 11. I think I taught my mom about it when she found me getting off with her back massager." Yeah, here's a news flash, your mom didn't buy the back massager because she had a bad back. She probably just pretended like "Oh, that's a good idea!" would you ever consider telling a partner or close friend your fantasies? "I told my girlfriend about it, the one I spoke about in question nine, and she thought it was fucking hot. God, I love her. No, I would never tell my husband. As I'm getting older, I would like to watch a little porno while we're having our sexual fun but I'm just not sure how to approach it because I don't want him to think that it's him that I need this now to get off. It's really just the stress of life. We're not young anymore and sometimes it's just hard to come down from it all and relax." Do these secrets and thoughts generate any particular feelings towards yourself? "No, not really, other than I'm a sexual being and I do love myself." Any comments to make the podcast better? "Just listen, Paul. Shhh. Listen." That kind of hurt when I read it, but I know sometiemes I get a little carried away, and that's the roll of the dice you take when you ask people to make comments about the show. Don't ask them if you don't want to hear all of them.
And I'm going to take it out on this last one. This is from the Happy Moments survey and I have to say this is the definition to me of sublime, filled out by Laura. And one of her happy moments, she writes "One memory that really sticks out in my mind is when I was about four or so, during the summer when we were still in our house in the country outside of Fort Wayne, Indiana. We had an in-ground swimming pool. My dad used to play the stereo loud enough from the downstairs living room out the sliding patio doors so we could hear it out on the deck by the pool. I just remember it being just after sunset and that summer we had Van Morrison's Wavelength album on constant loop on the record player, the smell of chlorine on my skin after getting out of the pool for the last time of the day, the heat and humidity still in the air, and the sound of the katydids with Van Morrison playing, winding down a long day of swimming and enjoying just being a kid. I just can't describe the feeling of contentedness and joy I felt with my mom and dad there. It was like a perpetual vacation in just one evening." Man, I don't know if I have ever heard a description that I could feel, hear, smell, and feel emotionally like that one. And I couldn't even name a single song on that album, I'd probably recognize them if I heard them, but I know that feeling of being so tired at the end of a day of being in the pool but you're so satisfied, and your skin's all wrinkly and your eyes, when you look at the lights you see halos. That just knocked me out, and what a great moment to end on. So if you're out there and you're listening, I hope you heard something tonight that reminds you that you are most definitely not alone. And thanks for listening.
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